I think it's kinda obvious that we honor our vets on this board from all wars, including Viet-nam. Potentially laying down their lives for this country makes them the finest this country has to offer.

However, why bring up & brag up about your parents duty to country ? Most combat vets felt they were just doing their job during various conflicts & wouldn't want their kids boasting about it. My old man ( still living at 88 ) was a firefighter on an aircraft carrier in the Pacific theatre during WW2. Over 1/3 of the sailors on the crew died from Kamikzi attacks. I revere his service & respect the hell out of him.
I'm sure other posters have similar tales to tell about their Dads, but modesty forbids to post their tales.

So,what the fuck does this have to do with the P&R board ? Nothing really, except right-wing retroactive re-examining of Viet-nam. Once again I REVERED Viet-nam vets--but hated that immoral & unjust war that split this country in half & has scarred it to this very day. Castigating those who would go to Canada, rather than fight--?!--gimme a break ! DNC phil is tormented by guilt over his anti-war activities----if he sincerely felt that way, why didn't he enlist to fight at that time ?

Let's face it---the real reason this subject was brought up was because a certain poster was having a hard time from several on this board & wanted to "enlist" the sympathies of fellow conservatives.

I'm sure I'll get the hell flamed outta me, but go right ahead-----I'm wearing my asbestos underwear--------




-- Modified on 11/28/2010 9:52:01 PM

I was raised in the "hippie culture" of the SF Bay Area, presently known as "Pelosi land" myself. I also was almost rabidly "anti war" as well, although my sentiments never went so far as to have any disrespect for the soldiers dying over there, too many of them were older brothers of friends.

I never would have enlisted to fight in Vietnam, and was lucky enough to have been born just a few years too late to have been drafted to serve there. I did enlist of my own volition several years after we were out of Nam, but so did millions of others BFD. I certainly don't consider myself a "hero" and quite frankly I don't hold many soldiers, past or present, in that rarified air. Most soldiers were/are simply trying to get by one day at a time, just like the rest of us. That hardly qualifies them as heroes, but it doesn't make them candidates for derision either, it just makes them human.

You won't ever see me calling a Mess Sergeant, or someone in the Quarter Master's corp a "hero" simply for wearing the uniform. Wearing the uniform doesn't automatically make one a hero, and blindly giving them hero status only detracts from the deeds of those true heroes who rose above and beyond the call of duty, either for country or their fellow soldiers.

Oh yeah, most everyone in my family served at one time or another, in various conflicts WWII, Korea, VietNam, but I grew up just assuming that was part of life, not that they were somehow "special" in their sacrifices.

which actually was one bullet piercing a PT boat; but blown up by "the military industrial
complex"( Dwight Eisenhower's words ) into something more severe so that military profiteers could rake in big buck$. Let's take into account the S. Vietnamese govt., thoroughly corrupt & unwilling to defend itself,
unlike S. Korea ( the Korean war was one conflict that was totally necessary. ) Viet-nam was also based on the "domino theory principle": "if we don't stop the commies now, they'll be in Hawaii next". Didn't happen, did it ? What a load of crap.

As for the North Vietnamese, brutal savages,but the world is full of brutal dictatorships----are we supposed to invade every country under such regimes ?( oh, wait---there's Iraq---we all know how well THAT went )

Btw, in the 60's, I DESPISED anti-war protestors carrying N Viet-Namese flags;likewise, I thought Jane Fonda's '72 trip to Hanoi was incredibly stupid & traitorous. Once again  BM, I revere all combat vets, including Nam, so let's dispense with the jingoistic sophistry, ok ?

As for Phil, his "retroactive chickenhawk guilt blubbering" puts him in the Dick Cheney class. Gimme a break !

Viet-nam was a conflict the U.S. should have NEVER entered; this country would have been far better off if that had happened.

-- Modified on 11/29/2010 9:06:36 AM

did you hear ME bring it up on this board ?!

It's amazing how reprehensible the board trolls can be.

"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel"-----------Samuel Johnson

-- Modified on 11/29/2010 6:29:06 AM

"Owning a mistake and moving forward is a character trait I have found is a hallmark of conservatism and lacking for those with liberal views"

That's of course why conservatives blamed Bill Clinton for 9/11, and blamed Obama for the TARP bail out. This is why conservatives have abandoned the War on Drugs as a failure. This also explains why conservatives have abandoned supply side economics as a failure, and are opposed to occupying Afghanistan, a nation where empires go to die. This also explains why conservatives, after a disasterous Presidency run by a dolt, have decided it would be better to support the best and brightest they have to offer like Sarah Palin.

cannot change the past. No one can. What we can do is acknowledge and learn from a mistake and move forward. Owning a mistake and moving forward is a character trait I have found is a hallmark of conservatism and lacking for those with liberal views.

When I was younger I believed the misinformation my hippie sister and others told me about Vietnam. When I was eighteen, I went to the recruiter's office. My sister told me in no uncertain terms how stupid I was , and that she would disown me if I joined the Army. In college I heard all about how Vietnam was wrong. I imitated those sentiments by being a registered Democrat. Yes, I even heard references to soldiers as dumb, shiftless and homeless baby killers. I believed all of it. In reflection, I should have realized all those who held negative views towards the military and specifially Vietnam, had never served. I don't remember specifically why I changed from a Democrat to a Republican. I do recollect listening to the "boat people". These Vietnamese had escaped the communist regime provided me a different perspective on the war and yes the American soldier. I also remembered my old football coach who was a Vietnam Veteran.

IN the meantime, like a missing tooth filling, the lack of military service gnawed at me. I must have asked my recruiter a thousand questions. My final question to him in a very smart ass way was:"If the Army is so great why are so many soldiers homeless?" He replied with stern anger: "Those bums are not veterans and if they are, they can get help, but you have to ask for it". I signed immediately.

Yes, in the Army I spoke to veterans of Vietnam. I read books on Vietnam. Not to go into details, I have concluded the Vietnam War is the most misunderstood war in American history. The Buddha says three paths to learning exist:

(1) Imitation - which is the easist,
(2) Experience - which is the bitterest,
(3) Reflection - which is the noblest.

Rather than imitate what willywonka, Jane Fonda, et al have said, ask questions from those who were in Vietnam. Upon reflection, you may like me, change your views on 'nam. It is not as simple as saying, Vietnam was an " immoral & unjust war". I for one like hearing stories such as Jezebel's father because for me, the Vietnam Veteran received very little recogniton for their service, for little money, and for little appreciation for their sacrifice. A little tribute on this modest board is not too much to ask. Thank you for your post.

hardly qualifies as "retroactive chickenhawk guilt blubbering". Pri you have a habit of lathcing on to someone you disagree with and trying to twist everything they say, or have ever said to depict them as disengenuous.

Likewise many of those anti-war protestors from back in the 60's are now captains of industry, and I bet you many of them are now "jingoistic faux patriots" themselves.

As for Jane Fonda, no matter how far to the left I leaned "back in the day" she is a traitorous cunt, who I would not piss on if she were on fire, who will never be forgiven by anyone who lost family or friends in the Viet Nam war.

I agree we never should have entered the conflict, but trying to prove a negative is a hard thing to do. We don't KNOW what the world would like like today if not f0r the Viet Nam war. Just like we don't know what would have happened if we had not invaded Iraq. Everyone seems to forget the oil crisis of just a couple of years ago. Can you imagine the panic if Saddam was still in power and managed to close the Straits of Hormuz. Oil would have eclipsed the $500 bbl mark and the world's economy could have easily crumbled. I can't prove it, but neither can you disprove it. Like I said, "it's hard to prove a negative"

I was vehemently against the war but despised many of the protestors, particularly those who engaged in unlawful/violent tactics.

As for Phil, we have a difference of opinion.

What cracks me up about this board is that someone brings up a late combat vet in a shameful & manipulative "sympathy ploy" & some of the board "righties" do their "jingoistic" bit, right on cue. It all looks like a behavorial psychology experiment, designed by BF Skinner.

Pathetic.





-- Modified on 11/29/2010 10:53:54 AM

but don't worry, the support will be short lived. Even though I often times find myself agreeing with her main points, I find her overall views rather repugnant and will distance myself from her even when I find myself in agreement with her larger points.

SJ lays claim to being a libertarian, but she is hardly the beacon ot tolerance that she claims to be. I heave seen her post for several years now, mainly under her original name of AtlHunter, and found her to be a racist of the worst kind, despite her protestations to the contrary. I also find her to be quite the hypocrite, labeling others as cheap CL hos, while charging identical rates and advertizing on the same venue. To borrow a word from you "Pathetic"

Speaking of Dwight Eisenhower, if you check your history, you'll see that America's involvement in Vietnam goes back to his administration, long before the Gulf of Tonkin incident. Read up on Dien Bien Phu, where the French were soundly defeated by the NVA. Ho Chi Mien asked for the USA's assistance in defeating the French, to become an independent nation, and Eisenhower refused. Ike told Uncle Ho that the French were our allies, and we had to support them. We did just that. So, Ho Chi Mien asked his neighbors to the north for help. The Chinese were more than happy to assist him....with a few strings attached, of course.

particularly, in that description, I would put one unnamed "martinet".

But every group has its examples of "bad apples".

-- Modified on 11/29/2010 11:44:53 AM

When admitting I am wrong, I have a big advantage because I am wrong so often I get a lot of practice.  At least that is what my SO says.

The only thing that even defines the EXISTENCE of a given free nation and the willingness of a proportion of its inhabitants to put their lives on the line.

By definition, those who served voluntarily are disproportionately likely to harbor strongly patriotic sentiments.

for the umpteenth time I said I REVERE combat vets; I also said the Korean war was a necessary conflict for the U.S to enter into.

I can see why you're a Palin supporter.

-- Modified on 11/30/2010 6:18:33 AM

but yes I agree, I am still rather liberal on social issues, freedom of choice, gay marriage, 1st and 5th ammendment issues, ect., but as a pragmatist I realize that we can't "feed all the poor", because some of them will never get off their lazy asses if we do so. We also can't push everyone into home ownership, just because it's the American Dream, as the housing debacle has proved. We can't all "just get along", as there are people in this world who wish us serious harm, and all the polyanna rationales in the world won't change that fact.

Yes the list goes on and on. I think many of us liberals turned conservative would truly like to be liberals, but have been forced to accept the reality that liberalism pushed too far would be the complete undoing of all we hold dear.

eulogized Senator Morris for standing up against the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution. I know about the corruption of the Thieu government, how Brown and Root made billions during the Vietnam war etc. I get it. I don't miss the fact, the Vietnam War, was an ugly, tragic, mismanaged episode in American history with a loss of life on all sides. Someday I like to discuss a historical view on Vietnam, with facts and without emotional distortions. Those who fought in 'nam, lost loved ones, protested, and sacrificed themselves by following the orders of others deserve better than imitations of tired political lines that play on emotions.

Thank you for reminding me, that one of the reasons I changed my view on Vietnam and became a conservative was because the only sensible discussions I could ever receive on the war were from those served in country. Your quote:

"if we don't stop the commies now, they'll be in Hawaii next". Didn't happen, did it ?

Your mocking self answer to your question is symbolic of these emotional distortions of history. Yes, you are correct, the communists did not take over Hawaii. What you don't acknowledge are the sacrifices our men and women made in Korea and Vietnam and countless other bloody skirmishes on the ground, air and sea, you never hear about, I will probably never know, because these stories are of no interest and run counter to people's version of events. I am though, learning something new from Jersey and other vets.

Because we stood our ground in Korea and Vietnam, democracies and economies are flourishing in South Korea, Malaysia, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Singapore et al. That is a fact. Yes, not everything has gone according to plan and been neatly delivered for the 6:00 o'clock news but I for one, (and this is where I do get emotional) am grateful for those who obeyed orders and answered the call for duty.

-- Modified on 11/30/2010 1:15:42 AM

his policies using the rules of engagment of law enforcement objectives rather than pursuing terrorists as a military strategy. Case in point, how silly was the FBI, in that they had to resort to entrapement to handcuff a mentally-ill, nineteen year old student on terrorist charges in Portland Oregon this past weekend.

TARP bailout! Don't get me started. Oh, believe me many conservatives objected to TARP 1 engineered by BUsh and Paulson. What I don't get, is why does Obama hire the same architects that led us into that Wall Street fiasco to reform our financial system i.e. Messrs. Geithner, Smith et al. It's been over two years since Lehman Brothers fell, why is Bernie Madoff the only one in jail? Instead of following the party line of your boss, you should be asking President Obama the same question. Until we clean up the moral bankruptcy not the financial debt on Wall Street, will this country be creditable and be able to recover economically.

The war on drugs. Well, this where I do miss President Reagan. Just say, no, baby.

President Bush was not perfect but he did keep us safe.

Anything else?

turned conservative" or democrat turned conservative do retain one or two elements of our youthful liberal past. I won't go into details here, but do you know what I mean? At least for me I do retain those liberal strains but instead of being idealistic I am more pragmatic about those views.

Are you her white knight or shill ?

GodHelpYou

-- Modified on 11/30/2010 3:05:50 PM

Twice in this thread you conveyed war stories about relatives which is the very thing about which you railed against SJ.

Why are you so fixated on SJ? For the past 2 days you've attacked her endlessly with name calling and now this? Are you reallly that offended by someone taking pride in her father's service?  Despite your attacks on her and insults she's shown infinite patience and not thrown them back,  who's the troll here? Get over yourself. You aren't above criticism either. You make yourself look as foolish as you claim she is.

interesting how I went after the female leftie
"Benlanger" with equal vigor & not a peep from either of you.

SJ is a racist & a hypocrite, but both of you are blinded by your partisan White Knight instincts. So much for "evenhandedness" from the both of you.

pardon the redundancy. ONCE again------I have said UMPTEENTH times that I REVERE combat vets, including NAM vets. ALL of this ( Korea & Viet-nam ) has been explained ad nauseum in my countless posts. If you have a reading comprehension issue, that's not my problem.

Pity you can't see yourself for the bigoted martinet that you are.

the world. In full disclosure, My original major in college was Agricultural Engineering. I even had ideas of developing aquaculture as means of providing food and fuel for the world. I studied for example all about sea kelp, took courses in biology, botany, organic chemistry, but like you I realized even if all people had all the food in world, there would still be problems. I decided to be more pragmatic. Besides I don't have the patience for farming.

I love to have peace for all the world, but you know at least for me, reality struck, and realized there are people in the world who want to harm us. And all the liberal talk of peace and love cannot erase the need for some young men to be a warrior and to be part of something greater than yourself. I could go on, it's late though.

Then you claim to revere combat vets, but dismiss their sacrifice and service by distorting the facts on Vietnam. You say Korea was necessary. Ok! I'll ask the question why do you consider Korean war necessary and the Vietnam Conflict/War not? I'm listening.

,why was the Korean war necessary and not Vietnam? No need to respond with anger.

while the corrupt S. Vietnamese govt. didn't.

Suppose I have to spell things out for you.

It must get extremely tiresome for people here when all you do is fabricate motivates for their actions while you ignore what they actually say.

you confuse "motives" with "motivates".

Yes & ignore subliterate white knights who support racist hypocrites.

Look, stupid ass, you're perpetuating this thread. If you're in love with SJ, your problem, not mine.

I've worked for 30 years; now go back to sleep next to your shopping cart by the underpass----

You're so obsessed with SJ your started this thread.  You've attacked her out of no where for 3 days now. This board isn't a sounding board for your problems with other people. The fact you keep bringing up OLD shit is evidence of this. There's no love lost bw you and her. We get it. For chrissakes just stfu about it already. She's not ranting and raving about your stupid ass. Perhaps you're the one out of work.