He chased you away, until you crawled under your rock for an extended hiatus. Apparently you are waiting for someone to feed you the same excrement you continue to dish out here. How much of your own medicine are you capable of swallowing?
Hope you are hungry.
Chauvin's three pals were indicted as accessories to murder and Chauvin himself got upped to Murder 2.
8 days of protests (?) to get there.
I'm still betting the establishment (left and right) misses the point... it ain't about one case in one place, it's about fixing the CJ system(s) nationwide so this crap stops happening so often.
Your ideas?
Personally, I don't think it is a systemic problem. I think it's just a very few bad apples. VERY few.
Still would like to hear your fixes.
...the civilian authority "who hires them, supervises and trains them (cops)."
See what a hypocrite JackSquat is? In a previous post on the same day, he blames the system - the civilian authorities who hire, supervise and train cops. They are responsible for the bad cops. NOW he's saying it's NOT a systemic problem at all; the civilian authorities do a great job of turning out 99.9% great cops, but "...it's just a very few bad apples. VERY few."
What else would you expect from a fucking righty hypocrite?
Yes, I've noticed that.
All cops are part of the "system" that produces these horrors when they stand by and allow the "bad cops" to perpetrate them. They are complicit and thus, not "good cops" at all. It just isn't enough to stand by inactive; they need to stop the "bad cops", testify against them when appropriate and basically begin to "protect and serve" as they are hired to to.
As for what we can do:
1. Track all cop violence - deaths and serious injuries to civilians detained and in custody.Track it at the federal level. What gets measured, gets done.
2. Investigate all cop violence - deaths and serious injuries reviewed not just by other cops, but also by the citizens they serve. No more secret investigations only by cops, and sealed records. Use cops from another jurisdiction who don't know the suspect(s) in the investigation, not the cops buddies on the local force.
3. Review all officers with multiple complaints of violence and malfeasance in office. Just as in every job, a pattern of poor performance needs to be addressed.
4. Address cop bad behavior as we address civilian behavior: Immediate arrests (get rid of paid "Admin leave vacations"). Eliminate the option of retirement to evade prosecution/disciplinary action. Actually fucking press charges.
5. Adopt a continuum of force policy and enforce it vigorously.
6. Adopt de-escalation policies and train, train, train them.
7. Hire better. Better educated, better psych evaluations, better background checks. Stop hiring cops fired in one jurisdiction in a different one.
If there isn't a system (and I'll admit there isn't much of one, it is so jurisdictionally fractured and distributed) we damn well need to create one!
Jack needs to realize that he's not the only one with friends and family in blue, and not all cops sneer at systematic reforms.
8.
based on the best data we have and most of what you have suggested is already being done.
The DOJ has tracked excessive force complaints against law enforcement officers since 1994. While the data on their website is out of date and tends to be compiled only for specific years, that data does not show systemic problems. In 2002, there were 27,000 citizen excessive force complaints – but only 8% were sustained. The website also tells us that in 2011 over 62.9 million citizens had encounters with the police. If we assume these numbers are in the ball park for say a ten year average, this is not a systematic problem but the work – as Jack says – of a few bad apples.
I’d like to see numbers on excessive force complaints sustained when the suspect resists arrest. That would give me a better feel for the problem and maybe that data is out there somewhere. But this stuff is hard to measure –the DOJ collected arrest related deaths for a number of years but decided the methodology used was unreliable - unless you want to spend money on this instead of say building a giant wall on the Border.
There is also a big difference between the kind of George Floyd and Rodney King excessive force scenarios and when the officer mistakenly but reasonably thinks a black suspect is reaching for a gun. The officer always screams “put your hands up” and when the suspect instead decides to reach for his wallet or whatever, I ain’t blaming that on the officer. The officer gets blamed whether the guy is black or white but if he is black this wrongly gets added to the “black lives matter” statistics. So the measurement of the problem is very difficult.
your father told you; "figures like, and liars figure." Agree with your conclusions, these are very difficult to measure and that in itself could be evidence of a systemic problem. We are not collecting/evaluating enough data. More specific/additional metrics as you cited, would help provide more data and contribute to more valid conclusions, don't you think?
Your conclusion, that we do not suffer from a systemic problem, based on the fact only 8% of excessive force complaints were sustained could also be called into question, Couldn't there be more to the story? What if the nature of our systemic problem is such, that the 8% number is invalid and the complaint submission/sustainment process is questionable? Two moving parts which could both be broken and could provide more data as you mentioned. Wouldn't that point to a "systemic problem."
Doesn't "the burden of proof lie with the accuser," and rightfully so? But couldn't a broken system invalidate, block submission of some reasonable complaints that should have been both followed through on and sustained, for any number of reasons?
What about officer recruitment? Another potential systemic problem. We may have a number of bad cops who are excessive force complaints waiting to happen? Will not yet, be reflected solely by collecting data on excessive force complaints, but could be helpful to take the preventive measure of reviewing our recruitment practices BEFORE complaints occur. Again, agree with you, difficult to say we do not have systemic problems as there are many more metrics we must measure.
Same thing for our police training programs, Mari. Sorry I do not remember his name, but listened to an NPR interview with a retired police chief about systemic problems and he rattled a number of them off and elaborated to a very impressive level of detail.
Sounds to me, we DO could have systemic problems, but are not collecting enough or the right data. Please throw me a lifeline, what could I be missing?
-- Modified on 6/5/2020 1:26:04 PM
...while on duty in Minnesota. Chauvin is only the second. Like Chauvin, the black cop was originally charged with third-degree murder and manslaughter. Like Chauvin, the charges were later increased to second-degree murder by D.A. Freeman, the DA who originally filed the charges against Chauvin.
The black cop (a Somali-American) was acquitted of second-degree murder but convicted of third-degree murder and second-degree manslaughter. He was sentenced to 12 1/2 years.
Many said the only reason the Somali cop was first cop charged with murder in Minnesota's history was because he is black and the victim was white. The only reason Chauvin was charged is because of the graphic video. If a black cop couldn't be convicted of second-degree murder for killing a white woman, don't expect a white cop to be convicted of second-degree murder for killing a black man.
BTW, remember the cop who shot at Philando Castile seven times, hitting him five? He was charged with second-degree manslaughter and two counts of dangerous discharge of a firearm. He was acquitted of all charges and now his attorney has been hired to defend Chauvin.
It’s going to be key that the DA gets the Murder 2 to stick. Now that he’s charged it, he’s got to convict on it or we face more unrest.
After DA Freeman fucked this up so badly the Governor had no choice but to put the AG in the lead. DA Freeman wasn't exactly fired, and he should be thanking whatever is holy to him that he still has has job, but he is no longer calling the shots.
As for Murder Two. as long as the white cop gets more time than the black cop (deservedly so, I think Noor just panicked and didn't willfully kill an innocent woman), a LOT more time I would hope, whether it's state time, federal time, or a combination of the two, I think justice will have been served. Even a Third Degree murder conviction, along with a few other charges served consecutively would ensure that Chauvin doesn't get out for a decade or two after Noor.
...important that Chauvin be convicted of second-degree murder. Anything less will be a disappointment. If he's convicted of third-degree murder, the only way he get more time than the Somali cop is if there are massive demonstrations before sentencing to pressure the judge into giving Chauvin the maximum penalty -- 25 year for third-degree murder vs. 40 years for second-degree. The Somali cop got half the maximum possible sentence for third-degree murder and nothing for his manslaughter conviction.
Chauvin's lawyers will present mitigating factors before sentencing. This is Chauvin's first conviction. He served honorably as an MP in the army. He's a hero cop - "Since being hired as a police officer in 2001, he has been awarded two medals of valor: One for being part of a group of officers who opened fire on a stabbing suspect after the man pointed a shotgun at them in 2006, and one for apprehending another man in a domestic incident in 2008. In the latter incident, Chauvin broke down a bathroom door and shot the man in the stomach."
http://www.boston.com/news/national-news-2/2020/06/03/derek-chauvin-george-floyd-case-update#:~:text=All%20four%20officers%20were%20fired,to%20also%20face%20criminal%20charges.
In Minnesota, you can be convicted of BOTH murder and manslaughter. The Somali cop was convicted of third-degree murder as well as manslaughter. In most jurisdictions, manslaughter is considered a "lesser included offense." If you're convicted of murder the manslaughter charge goes away. Even in Minnesota, if Chauvin is convicted of murder and manslaughter like the Somali cop was, he will not be sentenced to consecutive terms. You can't be sentenced twice for convictions based on the same set of facts. That's kinda like a form of double jeopardy.
IOW, what I'm saying is that GaG-on-dick is talking out of his ass and is full of shit. Chauvin will never be sentenced to consecutive terms.
-- Modified on 6/3/2020 7:01:34 PM
I clearly said the FEDS are also going to have a turn at Chauvin after the State of MN is done with him, and any federal time he would get would almost certainly be served AFTER he served his State time, as is the norm, or the FEDS wouldn't be bothering getting involved in the first place.
IOW what I am saying is that BPOS is either lying about his legal bona fides or perhaps he's lying, thinking that no one will notice, or perhaps he's just fucking stupid. Or of course it could be all three.
Please don't think this means that I am "talking to" BPOS now, I just wanted to correct the record for anyone who happens to read his post and who might believe him due to the fact he has played a lawyer on the internet here before.
Personally I think it's imperative that Chauvin not only get more time than Noor, a cop who by all accounts made a tragic mistake in judgment, but that this cold blooded killer get SIGNIFICANTLY more time. If the State can't deliver on this, the FEDS almost certainly will.
feel compelled to reply to your post, GaGa. While I am NOT a lawyer, do not play one on TV, and no, I did not stay in a Holiday Inn Express, last night, I can tell each of you have taken contrary legal positions. (I know, that IS the obvious part.)
After filtering the hyperbole of both posts, I must lean toward GaGa's post. This murdering cop (ouch sorry for the extra "topspin"), should get as much time behind bars, as possible, he clearly deserves it.
Must disagree with Papasan, as I do not think additional protestors will have any bearing on subsequent judicial proceedings as they usually unfold in a bubble, divorced from the day-to-day. While I hope GaGa is correct on his point about sentencing, have a feeling that is also, just a wish we all share. If history is any indication of the final outcome, I am bracing for one of the biggest disappointments of my life. This is one time, I truly hope I am wrong.
I felt it necessary to correct the record, Federal time is usually served AFTER the state sentence has been completed. That is not the only way it can work, but it is the NORM. BP falsely asserted, in an attempt to make me look bad I sure, that Chauvin by law could NOT end up with consecutive terms which is FALSE FALSE FALSE as anyone with even a modicum of legal knowledge would know. This can easily be Googled, but I have included a link that gives a pretty good explanation of the process
I don't claim to know what is actually going to happen, but I do know what is possible, or even likely. AG Barr and POTUS Trump, two of your least favorite people I know, have already gone on record that the FBI is getting involved and that Federal civil rights violations along with Federal Hate crime charges are likely. My guess is that "if" Chauvin is only convicted of Murder in the Third Degree and gets a relatively light sentence of say 10-15 years similar to what Noor got a few years back for a death that was clearly manslaughter and where virtually no one claimed he "intended" to kill that white woman, I am sure the Feds will vigorously pursue charges which would most likely add another decade or two to whatever Chauvin gets in State Time. I suspect that if the MN AG does his job and gets a Second Degree murder conviction and Chauvin get a much longer sentence, the feds may consider it "justice served" and back off.
This of course is speculation on my part, what is NOT speculation is the fact that BPOS was WRONG when he claimed there was "no possibility" of Chauvin serving consecutive sentences.
Lastly, I may not have communicated this clearly in my response to BP when I said
"Please don't think this means that I am "talking to" BPOS now"
Obviously I "was" talking to him then, what I "meant" is that this should not be taken as a change in my future behavior as I have no intentions of engaging with him in the future. I most certainly could have stated that more clearly, my bad.
you are correct. But GaGa, I am bending over backwards here. Don't we have to give a little sometimes, to change the narrative to a more positive tone, once in a while?
You, like Laffy, are articulate enough to dial back the hyperbole, and still make your point. Won't hurt any of us to take the high ground, once in a while, even if as an experiment to see where it takes us.
Testing myself as well and as a hard core New Yorker, surrounded by an "in your face" culture, requires a degree of restraint on my part too.
and I have ZERO intention of even speaking at all to him in the future, but PLEASE let me ask you, after he closed his post with
"IOW, what I'm saying is that GaG-on-dick is talking out of his ass and is full of shit."
Just what kind of tone do you really expect me to take? I think I was exceedingly polite, except for referring to him as BPOS I didn't launch into any kind of personal attack, I simply PROVED him wrong on the facts, and no one can deny that "on the facts" I was 100% correct.
Island debacle? After a while, we lose track, who offended first or in the most egregious way and who was responding to whom.
There IS enough blame on all sides and in retaliating, after you "three" ganged up, to insult me on many of my posts, does NOT make me any better.
Am not sure all of this detente stuff makes any difference, any way, but I am pretty much done with the insults. Have a pretty good idea, where most stand on here and have no problem articulating my point without lacing it with insults. The rest of you, will of course, do as you wish, as well.
this sounds? Clearly you ARE much more intelligent than this.
A federal judge can always impose a federal sentence consecutively to an existing state sentence, although he also can impose it concurrently. (we will leave the issue of “attempts” out of the discussion). This is true even if the state sentence has yet to be imposed.
As a general proposition, double jeopardy does not bar federal prosecutions for the same “conduct,” so long as there are separate federal and state “offenses.” So yes theoretically Chauvin can be convicted for murder and sentenced in state court, and then convicted and sentenced to a consecutive sentence in federal court for civil rights violation, so long as the same offense is not involved.
Now I know you got this answer from Mr. Fisher so be sure and pay his bill this time.
That the feds are unlikely to proceed against Chauvin until AFTER the State is done with him. Unless they have to file within a certain time frame of course. This would eliminate virtually any chance of the sentences being served concurrently and it would give the State a chance to "get it right' if Chauvin gets 40 years is there really much of a point in the Feds prosecuting him all over again.
As for fish maybe I will send HIM that bottle of Krug. lol
As for BP, I don't consider him a stupid person, I can't imagine he would get something like this SO wrong, I can only conclude he wanted me to be wrong so badly that he posted before thinking. Or that since he and I aren't on speaking terms that I would simply let it go and no one else would notice.
a bitch-slapping. He loses all perspective during his frequent melt-downs. I must compliment you on an unusually gracious dressing down of him this time.
He chased you away, until you crawled under your rock for an extended hiatus. Apparently you are waiting for someone to feed you the same excrement you continue to dish out here. How much of your own medicine are you capable of swallowing?
Hope you are hungry.
He has the nerve to assert that, even though he's replied to BP he still isn't "talking to" him.
BWAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
This must be the stupidest, most hypocritical post of all time.