those Iraqis are brave fuckers....to vote in the face of death...I for one applaud them and I guess W and his sorry assed misguided ilk for giving the people of Iraq the opportunity to choose.

I may seem irreverent and I'm not....I think that it is a great day and makes the 1,400 American lives not spent in vain.

God Bless Us All!

The Dude

-- Modified on 1/30/2005 2:37:35 PM

Bush campaigned in 2000 AGAINST nation building. His flip flop today seems dishonest.

Bush invaded and occupied Iraq primarily to find wMD that he and his minions claimed were a threat to the USA. No WMD.

Fact: the Iraqi guerillas will not lay down their arms and play nice nice as soon as the elction is concluded as the Bush Regime claims.

Fact: not one Iraqi expat living in the USA went back to Iraq to fight for democracy in Iraq. Instead they let almost 1500 US sons and daughters die for them

In some deeply profound and convoluted manner ya gotta hand it to the neocon nation builder for at least insinuating a little bit of democracy into that country and foget all of the political inuendos and subplots.....those people got to vote.  Go read what AlJazeera has to say....even they put some sort of a positive spin on the election.



-- Modified on 1/30/2005 5:26:02 PM

been ruined.  Thousands more soldiers are maimed or disfigured.  Thousands of innocent civilians will never get the chance to vote, because of this war.  

War often brings more problems than it solves.  Just because they are voting doesn't mean its over.  Iraq is still a mess and may never have a democracy...watch out for civil war, especially once the Americans leave.

Saddam was a bad man, no doubt, but with muslim clerics wanting to run the country, it may end up being worse in the future for women, gays, etc...

I dont applaud Bush at all.

If this war was so important for mankind, why didnt Bush send his daughters to fight?

www.crisispictures.com

First you criticize Bush for being too inflexible and loyal to dogma.  Then when he makes a major policy change in response to the paradigm shifting events of 9/11 and now he's a flip-flopper.  I originally liked the Bush doctrine in 2000 of no nation-building, and my opinion also changed somewhat after 9/11.  Didn't everyone's?  Didn't yours?

Also, where does the Bush regime claim that elections will cause an instant end to the insurgencies?

Iraq was not connected to Sept 11 in anyway whatsoever. The extreme hubris and machiavellian policy change from no nation building to pro nation building by the Bush Regime is venality at it's best, pure greed and evil at it's worst.

Bush's attempt at connecting Sept 11 with nation building is merely another one of over a dozen changing reasons the Bush thralls, sympathizers, and collaborators continue to use to justify the wanton and malicious money and power grab  of the Bush mafioso.

It is rank hypocrisy by the conservatives in the USA to attack Kerry flip flopping then support Bush's flip flopping.

And no, my opinion of nation building using FORCE, as Bush is doing has never changed.

The fact is that democracy CANNOT come from without, but has to come from within.

The American Revolution did not force democracy onto America by using foreign powers, but it came from a desire of the American people to be free and have liberty. The desire of the people of RSA  for liberty  and to be free of apartheid did not come from without, it came from within.

Flames ==>  dev/null

except you...

The problem is his ties to terrorism. Remember, this is a global war on terror, not JUST the Sep 11th terrorists.

Bush went from constantly talking about WMD, (when Richard Clarke told him they had already investigated that over and over and found Hussein not to have any,)to all of a sudden saying Saddam was a bad man, an evil tyrant.  IF he was such a bad man, why did Dick Cheney and George Bush Sr. not do anything about it?  Why did Cheney head a company selling oil-field equipment to Iraq during the 90s?

If we are going to get rid of every evil dictator, we'll be involved in wars for decades.  Who's next, Kim Jong-Il?  I'd hate to see how bloody that war would be...


Bush is just making up lies to cover the fact that he's a moron.


"Seldom is the question asked:  Is our children learning?"

"More and more our imports are coming from overseas."

They guy is a moron.  He's president of the strongest nation on the face of the earth and he somehow believes that God chose him to free everyone.

Scary, when people believe they know exactly how God thinks...

giving him his due.

As much as his haters gnargle and gnash, this action does have the potential to unleash democracy across that region and usher in long term stability few could imagine a scant few months ago.

Fact is, most of those troops in this effort voted for him as well. Oh what gnashing the realization of THAT will cause!!!

all these governments have ties to terrorism.  That doesnt mean the US has to go around starting wars/

those Iraqis who faced death to exercise the right to vote with the whiners who were complaining about long lines in Ohio... which were the result of the decisions of electoral boards with a partisan balance (i.e., no partisan advantage) in deciding where to put voting machines.

I think you may need to go back and check your history books.  If it weren't for the French being involved in our revolution we might still have a Queen.  Remember that Dude named Lafayette and that 'Freedom Fighter' from Poland General Polaski(?)

Can we focus this thread on the issues rather than name calling?

I thought I made it clear in my post that I don't particularly support nation-building.  However, my opinion did change somewhat after 9/11.  Prior to 9/11, I was a bit of an isolationist in terms of foreign interventions.  However, I do find myself feeling the need to be a bit more active with our agenda after 9/11, even if that means military action.  

All I've suggested here is that it is possible that Bush had the same change of heart.  But, if you believe he's just a dishonest, evil person, you'll never be able to give him the benefit of the doubt and we can debate that until the sun goes down.

So I ask you: how did your view of international affairs change after 9/11.  Are you a flip-flopper too?

WOW, THAT WILL REALLY WORK!!!

BTW, have you checked out Libya lately? Being a dictator of a third world country is a pretty sweet deal for these guys. If they actually BELIEVE they could wind up with their ass being dragged out of a foxhole and their mug on CNN as a prisoner, that is not a risk they will want to take.

No harboring of terrorist in that country!!

No, it doesn't.  The more the international community shows it won't tolerate other governments that support terrorism, the less we'll have to go to war.  Remember, force isn't as powerful as the perception that you'll use it.  And, conversely, power is useless if the enemy doesn't believe you'll use it.

Bush had no change of heart. the documentation and evidence is substantial on the Bush Regime's plan to invade and occupy Iraq a long time before 9/11 It is a canard to claim Bush had a change of heart about nation building when it was planned a long time before. He and his minions IGNORED the warning of an attack. He and his minons lied about the cause of war and continue to lie about it.  The only people to dispute that Bush lied are the Bush sympathizers

No, Bush deliberatley andmalisously lied to the American people. He used 9/11 like the Reichstag Fire to invade Iraq and reduce civil liberties in the US.

Note: Libya was NOT invaded and was brought forward. But of course Bush didn't see the profit in Libya that he saw in Iraq.

I don't believe Bush is an evil person. I know he is dishonest. The dishonesty of Bush will not be disputed by any rational human being. Bush is NOT moronic or an idiot. Those are conditions he would not have control over.

Bush is ignorant. Bush CHOOSES ignorance. This choice to be ignorant by Bush is not an indication of him being an evil person, but of a pyschopathology that comes from his family of origin. He has never suffered the consequences of his actions and thinks his decisions today will change history..

Do you see how pathologiucal it is for Bush to ignore facts TODAY, then claiming the results tomorrow will change history?

I support the American troopers who fight and die in Iraq so the Iraqis can vote here.

How many of those Iraqis have gone back to Iraq to fight for freedom and liberty?

I'll give you a clue...

ZERO. NADA. ZILCH.

Like the Bush Regime chickenhawks they send our sons and daughters to die but don't put themselves of their own in danger.

WE called them cowards where I come from. Just like we call Bush a coward.

This is just a rebirth of the failed policy of the "Domino Theory" that they used to combat communism across the globe back in the 70s. The fact of the matter is that until we pulled our troops out of all the countries that communism was developing in and instead chose to support the insurgents in those countries that hated the Russians that communism fell.In the process however we ended up training a radical moslem in Afghanistan who was fighting the Russians with the locals......his name was Osama Bin Laden.Oppppppssssssss!!!!!!

I do not know any Iraqis.  However, perhaps they feel this war against Iraq is not ``Operation Iraqi Freedom'' but rather a demonization of their country - that, Iraqis and all those ``goat-fuckers'' are terrorists.  This, IMHO, is the attitude of many flag-waiving patriots.

The Iraqis in this country did not ``send our sons and daughters to die'' in this war.  It was the fighter pilot Bush, The Red Barron - not them.  I agree with you, that change for freedom must come from within.  However, this war is not about the freedom of Iraq.  

I would imagine that Iraqis living in the US made their own courageous change to be here. Calling them cowards is quite unfair.  

What amazes me is your "matter-of-fact" posts.  By reading your posts, it would seem that you have access to all the same info that Pres Bush and his minions, as you refer to them as, have.  You state things as fact, then prove fact by claiming there is documentation AND evidence such as his plan to attack and occupy Iraq prior to 9/11.  If you have such proof, why don't you bundle it up and send it off to 60 Minutes!  Now, if you are taking your facts from obscure websites and factually challenged movies, then you are just repeating more bullshit.  Honestly, if your own life depended on it, could you claim that Iraq had NO connection in anyway whatsover to 9/11?  I'm not claiming that Iraq did have much or anything to do with it, but I pretty happy with the last 72 hours of results.  I'm also happy to see Hussein sitting in prison.

As far as the American Revolution is concerned, you should brush up on your history a bit.  The country was divided as much then as it is now on wether to fight the king.  Much of the population did not even know we were at war until it came rolling through their back yards.

Similar to modern America, many citizens wanted nothing to do with fighting for their freedom, they were satisfied with accepting what the king was willing to allow them to do and have.  Pacifist is not a term of the 1960's.

Your point about the American revolution is terrific.  If you're looking for a good read, check out "Angel in the Whirlwind" by Benson Bobrick.  Great read.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0140275002/qid=1107273549/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/103-3015176-4349426?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

MissDemeanor is actually the illegitimate love child of Michael Moore and Barbara Stresiand.

you're the legitimate child of J[ames86] and [Big]Bird - conceived on a hot passionate night in CA[li].   You guys slay me.  It's okay for man on bird lovin (or was it the other way round), but you draw the line at Gay marriage ...

ponder the very strong possibility that a large percentage of those cowardly Iraqis have relatives or friends who are currently residing in a mass grave somewhere in Iraq. There are many who could show you the physical scars from a visit to one of Saddam's torture rooms. Maybe even a few who've answered a knock at the door, only to find a son's or daughter's remains, nicely packaged in a garbage bag.

RLTW