All hail the media creation of St. John McCain.  This guy can do no wrong as far as the media is concerned.  He is never questioned.  St. John's word is gospel.  He is the Democrat's most effective weapon.

Has he answered to the failure of his campaign finance law?  He did a bang-up job keeping money out of politics.  Thank God he's taking on Major League Baseball.  I'm sure it has nothing to do with grandstanding in front of cameras.  Oh no, not him and his tiny ego.

And now torture, or his version of it.  The Geneva Convention is extremely broad.  It is open to interpretation.  Bush wants it defined  so people like McCain can't scream the word "torture" every time Osama Jr. has to listen to the Metallica boxset. And kudos for once again equating the USA with terrorists.  They torture and behead their prisoners.  McCain cries when we don't turn off their lights during naptime.  His arguments are childish and idiotic.  They are also parroted by the media.  

The truth is it is all about McCain and his ego.  He will take the spotlight every chance he gets.  I am so looking forward to his defeat trying to win the nomination of a party he does not represent. When he loses in 2008 the media will again say how unfair it was.

McCain certainly has his faults but in a discussion of wartime torture would you rather take the advice of Bush and his gang of neocon chickenhawks or people like McCain and Lindsey Graham, a former Air Force officer and JAG lawyer, who actually understand the issue and the consequences for US troops when we sanction torture of prisoners.

McCain served his country was a PoW and was tortured.  I'll listen to him before I'll listen to Bush - some rich kid whose father used his contacts to keep him out of Vietnam and out of harm's way.

It's an action against another human being that "shocks the conscience"!!!

By comparison to this Orwellian doublespeak, the Geneva Convention is specific.  

You've been conned with that argument by this administration.  

He does a lot wrong in my opinion... What a wacko and yes his ego is his biggest mistake!

I does no permanent damage but is scary as hell.  We have to find out info to get the enemy in order to save lives.  You heard about the whack jobs @ the UN. Charlie Rangle even got pissed, and he's against Bush 99% of the time.

The enemy does not care about the Geneva convention rules.  They're gonna slit our throats.  They hate ALL Americans (even democrats) as much as they hate all Jews.  And they wanta kill us all.

Some people on the radio (Glenn Beck) are saying that the Islamocrazies snuck a nuke into the US and are gonna use it.  They're saying that the crazies are gonna detonate it in NY NY or DC.

If that happens, we would have to retaliate bigtime-------

Bob Parr described McCain perfectly.  And I have one more thing to add about McCain--he suffers the Stockholm syndrome

Why wouldn't somebody just lie?  

The Soviet Union used it-- but not to get any true information.  They knew the "confessions" they were getting were bullshit. There's not one bit of information the Soviets got from torturing German soldiers.

In trying to extract information in a war, this is a losing tactic. To believe it's effective, you have to be an idiot.  You've proved yourself again, Geezer.

-- Modified on 9/22/2006 12:10:50 PM

We shouldn't even bother interogating prisoners.  It is completely useless.  I have no idea why it has been used by every culture in warfare for thousands of years.  It simply doesn't work.

The justice system spends millions training people to be experts in this field.  What a complete waste of time.  It simply doesn't work.

Is that your point Zin?  Are you sure you want to stick with it?

It truly amazes me how many people in this country hate our system of government and system of justice.

A lot of people are screaming that sleep deprivation and having to remain standing for an extended period of time is "torture".

So, this is supposed to be a bill that allows us to just interrogate?  How ever did we do without it before?  

(My, I seem to be quite **conservative** on this issue.  You damn pinheaded liberals!! Can't you see how you're fucking up?)

Torture is good for one thing: terrorizing.  It's the way the Soviets used it;  it's the way the Nazis used it.  They might have called the process "interrogation" but their doublespeak has corrupted your mind if you believe that.  It's very effective at keeping the domestic population frightened and controlled.  

During WW2, the Soviets gained better intelligence from defectors-- who NKVD then tortured and murdered.  Stalin thought they were a trick!    

In the war on terror, ninety percent of intelligence should come from informants.  Now that source will dry up because of this law.

I'll make this prediction for you Jack: within 5 years, the government will be torturing Americans.  Within 10 years it's going to be used against Americans on a scale that can't be ignored.  Now that's terrorism!

It terrifies me.  I'm saving money and getting all the certifications I can to emigrate to Canada.   I don't want be around to see these next chapters.

And Canada will be a world power after some Global Warming!  


-- Modified on 9/22/2006 11:28:45 PM

Standing for a long period of time can cripple you.  Especially when combined with sleep deprivation.  Why do you think it's painful?

Have you asked youself how you force people to stand?  What means do you use?  

Sleep deprivation: 72 hours without sleep and you are legally insane for a year.

HARDCORE LIBERAL.  You are the real thing.  Wow!

some Polar Bears.  

When the Soviets interrogated that U2 pilot that was  shot down, Francis Gary Powers, (or whatever his name is) the first interrogation lasted 10 HOURS!  They were experts at getting info out of people.  They broke everyone that they got their hands on!!

THEY'D MAKE'M SING LIKE A CANARY!!!

We have to be able to waterboard people to get info out of them.  Waterboarding is really effective and it does no physical damage whatsoever if administered correctly by someone that knows what they are doing.

Plus the U.S.  probably would have other people right there to help in reviving the torturee.

Do you care to answer liberal arguments?  Or is snearing the only response you need?  The Right has moved out of reality.

Mark my words: what I say will be true.  Already the Right is calling liberals traitors, among other things.  Your saying that we're helping Islamo-fascists; rumors are floated casually that we're probably on their payroll. Torture will be used against Americans, and it won't stop with liberals after it starts.  

As Thomas Payne said, this is all common sense.  I can't recognize this country anymore; how it has changed in 6 years.  How rapidly it has declined.  I've seen enough.  I'm committed to getting out.

Stop being such a hysterical little lib.  Grow a sack!  Make an argument worth addressing and I will address it.  You have no idea how unintentionally funny your posts are.  You definitely belong in Canada.  One less disillusioned, burnt-out hippie. Enjoy!

Who's got it wrong?  I've never been a hippie.  I've never used drugs.  I wasn't politically active till 2 years ago when I began to hobby.  It's arguments on this board that convinced me of liberalism.  Arguments like yours.

Unwrap the flag from your fucking head and look around.  This country is just another nation-state  committed now to arrogantly making stupid decisions.  Like every nation-state ever, it's mortal. There's more wrong here now than an election could correct.

Uh OK... What were they again?  
1)We shouldn't interrogate our enemies.
2) Liberals will be tortured in this country within 10 years.
3) America is doomed
3) You're hightailing it to Canada.

Here are my responses to your arguments:
1) You're an idiot.
2) You're an idiot.
3) You're an idiot.
4) Hooray! (Try not to get sick over there. They have a state-mandated healthcare system that is really fucked up).

end of thread.

1) distortion, strawman.  
2) I supported this argument, and you did nothing to answer my basis for saying this.  You can't.
3) There is nothing about your belief in America that will alter any outcome.
4) Not an argument.  Be glad it doesn't require an answer.

Now, my account of your answers:

1) Arrogance.
2) Bluster and hot air.
3) Nationalism, but without morality or principle
4) Personal insults.

Be glad that you have a dick because your big head does nothing for you.  It's a waste of vacuum, even drug free.


-- Modified on 9/23/2006 10:57:32 AM

Many conservatives do, and loudly say so. How long are you going to restrain yourselves?  

It would be dumb for me to stay here, whether I go to a socialist paradise or not.

trying to debate one of the Brown Shirts. When this is all over, they just need to be hung.

-- Modified on 9/23/2006 1:28:16 PM

Many?
Loudly?

I have never heard nor witnessed same. Please enlighten me with more than your opinion.

I'll have to give the quotes when I come back from my trip, but here's some of the politicians I've heard it from:

Bush
Cheney
Rumsfeld
ad infinitum for the Senate and House

From pundants:

Ann Coulter (of course)
Rush Limbaugh
Sean Hannity
Bill O'Reilly
Bloggers

Now, given that leading politicians and the main pundants of the right, among others, have said that people with my political leanings are traitors, why should I stay?  Especially considering that they own all branches of the government?  

It's in my self-interests to get out, no matter what you think of Canada.  I'll be withdrawing from politics soon (within a week) to concentrate my efforts to emigrate.  

those fuckers are just endless trouble to you, aren't they?

signatory to the convention against torture, and will grant political asylum if torture is more likely than not?

I don't have any direct experience with the issue of collecting information this way.  Nor, of course does the RNC.

Of course, there's something to be said for keeping your options open.  There's also the question of whether we want to trust information secured this way.  

I do have enough experience to know precisely why polygraphs are inadmissible - because they can't measure response to the question independent of response to the interrogator, nor can you filter out the interrogator's prejudices.   It's that they aren't reliable.


So you water board somebody.   How do you know he's telling you the truth, and not just feeding you shit until he chances on what will make you stop?   I doubt that you do.

http://www.cap-oscar.org/images/O1/Gray/TheBird.jpg