Your credibilty is flying out of it...
I've linked to the editorial in the NYT about the Terrible Trifecta performed by the Supreme Court in its rulings last week.
I'm not going to sit here and pointlessly flail away at the decisions themselves... obviously, I have problems with them.
What *I* want, is for one of you right winger conservative types to explain how you could possibly support these decisions.
* Further deterioration of the separation of Church and State; taxpayers can NOT challenge White House aid to faith-based organizations as a violation of church-state separation.
* The continued erosion of students First Amendment Free Speech rights. Try not to focus on the message of the student (Bong Hits 4 Jesus) when you rationalize this one.
* Weakening McCain-Feingold and rendering it nearly pointless.
If you really agree with these three decisions, then please, explain it to me in terms that don't stink of petty partisanship. Leave the bickering out of it.
Give me something that will help me understand the thought-process and rationale. I swear to you, I'm seeing the frayed edges of our entire system here being overshadowed by a mutated form of Christo-Islamo-Fascismo-Imperialismo.
I love this country, and firmly believe in the principles upon which it was founded. But as I read the writing on the walls, I find myself contemplating expatriation as my only personal solution. That bothers me.
a NTY """"EDITORIAL""" who's tone is against these decisions is not an optimal basis upon which one can build a foundation for understanding?
why don't you find an objective opinion piece that seeks to inform rather than sway and use IT as a starting point?
Then again, we can throw mud if you like.
just check to see what's in your own hands.
So here are some other sources of the same story.... from the left, right, middle, and even the sewers of Arabia:
Seattle Post Intelligencer
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/1154AP_Scotus_Excerpts.html
The Globe and Mail
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20070626.WORLD26-4/TPStory/International
How about this one Bill? Human Events dot com -
http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=21288
US NEWS AND WORLD REPORT
http://www.usnews.com/usnews/politics/bulletin/bulletin_070626.htm
How about AL-FUCKING JAZEERA???
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/496F54C4-0EBA-4AD6-A1BD-2F8064E0772F.htm
Is that varied enough for you?
So how about you not obfuscate and distract from my question and request, which, regardless of the partisan perspective of the article written, does not change the fact these rulings are fact.
Explain it to me Bill. How can you defend and support these rulings in good conscience?
An opinion piece by its nature is not objective. it has a specific point view which is the whole idea about opinion compared to an objective news analysis. I'd like hear your defense of these Supreme Court decisions that concluded that the American people have no standing to sue the government and two free speech decisions that contradict each other.
-- Modified on 6/26/2007 3:19:05 PM
There is, i believe, a legal doctrine known as Sovereign Imunuty. If i understand it correctly, it states that gov't cannot be sued unless it consents to be sued.
Free speech is, well, free speech. It's one of the most contentious area of constitutinal interpretation. That this court rendered decisions which contradict each other is no surprise. I imagine the factual basis of each case is such that these contradictions will have to coexist until another case comes down the pike which might serve as a springboard to some resolution of those contradictions, or at least fime-tuning, of those two decisions.
I know that there are attorneys on this Board. We need their insights here. Jack0, weigh in please.
Has anyone bothered - I sure haven't -- to go online and get the relevant decisions in each case, majority opinion, dissent, and concurrence [if any] and post them?
Usually the NYT usually run excerpts of SC decisions. That's worth a look, along with the various editoral opinionizing about them.
Here's the straight news coverage:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/26/washington/26scotus.html?_r=1&th&emc=th&oref=slogin
Bong Hits $ Jesus:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/26/washington/26speech.html
Faith-based decision:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/26/washington/26faith.html
-- Modified on 6/26/2007 5:46:57 PM
-- Modified on 6/26/2007 5:54:10 PM
I'm impressed with Greenhouse's ability to explain the legal arguements without injecting too much of herself into the piece. It's clear Doc could'nt find it because he would'nt know what it would look like.
"""Has anyone bothered - I sure haven't -- to go online and get the relevant decisions in each case, majority opinion, dissent, and concurrence [if any] and post them?"""
NOw why would you want to go and do that??? You mean actually base a response on what the pareties actually say????
NOt on this board.
We don't cotton to the that kinda shit...
After I'm done reading up, I may share some comments. Unlike our resident legal eagles who instantly know the SC is trying to steal all our rights, I'd rather take some time to see what they actually said.
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=000&invol=06-278&friend=nytimes
The link will take you to the opinions in the "bongs hit" decision. Writ of certiori, majority opinion, concurrences by Thomas and Alito, and dissent by Stevens. Not an attorney, but rumor has it that i can read, and I do't even move my lips when i do so, so i took a look per your suggestion. [Plus, I felt that I owed you for hipping me to DevineDDevin several month earlier.]
Not respecting precedent? Roberts writes in his opinion : "Our cases make clear that students do not "shed their constitutional rights to freedom of speech or expression at the schoolhouse gate." Tinker v. Des Moines Independent Community School Dist., 393 U. S. 503, 506 (1969). At the same time, we have held that "the constitutional rights of students in public school are not automatically coextensive with the rights of adults in other settings," Bethel School Dist. No. 403 v. Fraser, 478 U. S. 675, 682 (1986), and that the rights of students "must be 'applied in light of the special characteristics of the school environment.' " Hazelwood School Dist. v. Kuhlmeier, 484 U. S. 260, 266 (1988) (quoting Tinker, supra, at 506). Consistent with these principles, we hold that schools may take steps to safeguard those entrusted to their care from speech that can reasonably be regarded as encouraging illegal drug use. We conclude that the school officials in this case did not violate the First Amendment by confiscating the pro-drug banner and suspending the student responsible for it." Can it just be that the factual bases of this case were sufficiently different, and posed different free-speech questions, and that the precedents were not binding? Can it be the reasoning of the majority that that this case fell somewhere between the decisions in Tinker and Fraser?
Roberts writes : "Elsewhere in its opinion, the dissent emphasizes the importance of political speech and the need to foster "national debate about a serious issue," post, at 16, as if to suggest that the banner is political speech. But not even Frederick argues that the banner conveys any sort of political or religious message. Contrary to the dissent's suggestion, see post, at 14-16, this is plainly not a case about political debate over the criminalization of drug use or possession."
This paragraph by Roberts hardly seems threatening : " Petitioners urge us to adopt the broader rule that Frederick's speech is proscribable because it is plainly "offensive" as that term is used in Fraser. See Reply Brief for Petitioners 14-15. We think this stretches Fraser too far; that case should not be read to encompass any speech that could fit under some definition of "offensive." After all, much political and religious speech might be perceived as offensive to some. The concern here is not that Frederick's speech was offensive, but that it was reasonably viewed as promoting illegal drug use."
And finally: "The judgment of the United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit is reversed, and the case is remanded for further proceedings consistent with this opinion." How many of us really understand what that means in practical terms?
Looking at Aliot's concurrence, he leads with: "I join the opinion of the Court on the understanding that (a) it goes no further than to hold that a public school may restrict speech that a reasonable observer would interpret as advocating illegal drug use and (b) it provides no support for any restriction of speech that can plausibly be interpreted as commenting on any political or social issue, including speech on issues such as "the wisdom of the war on drugs or of legalizing marijuana for medicinal use..."
He continues : "The opinion of the Court does not endorse the broad argument advanced by petitioners and the United States that the First Amendment permits public school officials to censor any student speech that interferes with a school's "educational mission." See Brief for Petitioners 21; Brief for United States as Amicus Curiae 6. This argument can easily be manipulated in dangerous ways, and I would reject it before such abuse occurs. The "educational mission" of the public schools is defined by the elected and appointed public officials with authority over the schools and by the school administrators and faculty. As a result, some public schools have defined their educational missions as including the inculcation of whatever political and social views are held by the members of these groups."
Alito concludes : "Speech advocating illegal drug use poses a threat to student safety that is just as serious, if not always as immediately obvious. As we have recognized in the past and as the opinion of the Court today details, illegal drug use presents a grave and in many ways unique threat to the physical safety of students. I therefore conclude that the public schools may ban speech advocating illegal drug use. But I regard such regulation as standing at the far reaches of what the First Amendment permits. I join the opinion of the Court with the understanding that the opinion does not endorse any further extension."
OK, now call me complacentand cockeyed, but neither Roberts nor Alito, in these excepts, sound at all like rabid, wild-eyed GOP counterreovolutionay judicial activists intend on the omgoing destruction of American democracy and the perpetual rape and battery of fundamental civil liberties and civil rights. Both seemed, as far as their writing is an accurate guide, to be pretty sober, reflective, temperate, judicious and judicial -- exactly the traits I think would be a must for any judge at anylevel of gov't, even traffic court. Mabe especially in traffic court.
But we need to address Doc's political point about a GOP federal judiciary, which I think was the crux of his post. It may be the case that Roberts and company are exactly what Doc fears they are. Time will eventaully tell. And looking at Bong Hits in isolation from the other two decisions may be misleading, in that it does not alow as full an inference as the three cases taken as a whole. But I noticed today that the SC handed down a 5-4 decision resticting the application of capital punishment in cases of, I think, mental incapacity.
So I think we have to say, just now, and always subject to revision, case not proven, we're still examining and weighing the evidence as it comes in. And i believe that the SC concludes it's term within the next week, which ill provide a further, and fuller, opportunity for reflection. But not from me.
BTW, a few month earlier sunsword69 started a trhread re this very case as it was being argued.
Yes I did.
I didn't think anyone noticed
http://www.theeroticreview.com/discussion_boards/viewmsg.asp?MessageID=47621&boardID=39&page=1
You might have me on the Separation of Church and State issue.. I am not Religious nor Anti religious but I prefer a neutral position.. I have no problem with a non public funded manger scene outside a school yard especially when the school is on " Winter Break" but I really do not thing Priests and Preachers should be allowed to solicit votes for their Party whoever it might be.. That goes for Falwell and Jackson ..Two peas in a Pod with different views.
How can we not focus on the Bong Hits for Jesus issue as that was what the case was about?? I think it is ridiculous people are jailed for simple possesion of Marijuana but until it is legal I feel the students should not be allowed to rally for anything illegal whether it be hate against gays or their use of Pot. Some facts you might want to look up yourself is that Marijuana was made illegal by predominately Democrats in the 30s.. I am only speculating but I think it was because minorities were having too much fun chilling with the bowl and a vast majority of both parties liked to mess with minorities back then.
Looking at the amount of money spent on the race for President it seems to me the McCain Fiengold bill was merely a feel good bill with TOO MANY loopholes..so I reckon I am with you on that also as the court made a very weak bill weaker.
My comment was meant to refer to the oft-used tactic of diverting fromthe topic by misdirection... such as focusing on the message itself.
Regarding the reclassification of marijuana....
how about this version:
Marijuana is a high content THC variant of the hemp plant. Hemp was, and is used for a wide variety of purposes, including the manufacture of cordage of varying tensile strength, clothing, and nutritional products. The bast fibers are commonly used in 100% hemp products, but are also blended with fabrics such as linen, cotton, or silk for apparel and furnishings. The inner two fibers of hemp are more often used in non woven items and other industrial applications. The fibers are more woody and used for mulch and animal bedding as well as litter. The oil from the fruits ("seeds") dries on exposure to air (similar to linseed oil) and is sometimes used in the manufacture of oil-based paints, in creams as a moisturising agent, or for cooking. The oil from the Hemp seeds is also used in plastics. Hemp seeds are often added to wild bird seed mix. In Europe and China, hemp fibers are increasingly being used to strengthen cement, and in other composite materials for many construction and manufacturing applications. Mercedes-Benz uses a "biocomposite" composed principally of hemp fiber for the manufacture of interior panels in some of its automobiles.
Prior to World War II, the United States purchased hemp-based items including rope, parachutes, clothing, and other items used by the military.
Then in early 1935, DuPont invented nylon. After determining itsvalue as a cordage product, DuPont set about to acquire the contract of making rope and parachutes for the US Army.
In 1936, called Reefer Madness: Tell your Children started to make the rounds of churches and schools... and though it quickly faded into cult status, eventually led to hemp, aka marijuana being reclassified a Level 1 narcotic, equivalent to heroin.
Put THAT in your pipe and smoke it![]()
Personally, all I can ask is this: between a blow job and a bong hit, which one is more liklely to elicit a passionate scream of "Oh GOD!!!"?
The Power of God, is in the Suck.
1) Does that mean that you are ok with the administration setting up a conference to instruct religious organizations in how to apply federal grants? Or are you ok with the fact that the Court seems to be saying that actions that are the result of legislation can be questioned, but not those don by Executive Order!
2) So are you suggesting that had there been a Republican majority in the 30's pot would be legal?!? When looking at the present, it is useless to politicize the past. Every majority makes bad laws. Every majority enforces good and bad laws in a bad way. Was this simply a childish prank, or a pro drugs statement? The Court appears to have spoken that zero tolerance means you can be punished for mentioning drugs (talk about PC!). What really disturbs me is a SC Justice saying, in a concurring opinion, that there is no right to free speech for students. This begs the question, just when does someone become eligible for this, and other freedoms, and what other classifications and circumstances makes one ineligible for Constitutional protection?
3) Hey its nearly 3 am here in England, too tired/drunk to come up with an agument.
Well, they may be going for the old en loco parentis doctrine. And let's face it, no matter what, minors are alwayed considered inferiour citizens in many ways compared to thoes of legal.majority.
When a rare fir of insomnia possesses me, i'll read the opinons which were so thoughtfully posted.
1. Executive order can not be questioned as long as it is the Kings directive.. 2..Just setting the record straight as it was not the Republicans who started the draconian marijuana laws..However I do believe the Republicans are not as racist as the democrats and they would not have outlawed something just because minorities are having fun."my belief"..Google for yourself ..Black Republican Magazine..Read and Learn what the teacher doesn't tell you
http://www.supremecourtus.gov/opinions/06pdf/06-157.pdf
http://www.supremecourtus.gov/opinions/06pdf/06-969.pdf
http://www.supremecourtus.gov/opinions/06pdf/06-278.pdf
If you need additional sleep aides, then here is the master list for 2006:
http://www.supremecourtus.gov/opinions/06slipopinion.html
-- Modified on 6/26/2007 6:49:53 PM
Do you believe that:
1) student speech that condones or promotes illegal drug use SHOULD be allowed at school activities?… or is it simply that:
2) the “Bong Hits 4 Jesus" does not “reasonably” pass the threshold?
Should:
1) all issue-oriented speech (that is normally unrestricted under the new law) be totally banned just because it happens to involve a candidate?…
or is it simply that:
2) the involvement of this candidate (ironically Feingold), in this lawsuit DID pass the threshold for involvement directly upon the issue?
Should
1) any taxpayer be allowed to sue an executive agency because he does not agree with the cause or reason of expenditure or effort spent?
Or is it that
2) in this case the cause or reason for the expenditure or effort was made on behalf of a religious organization?
Or is it that
3) in this case the cause or reason was religious in nature?
-- Modified on 6/26/2007 7:43:34 PM
I.
2 --- Gonzo 4:20 - Let they who are without sin get stoned first.
II.
Dude.. I think ALL special interest money should be eliminated from the political process. This simply makes it easier for deep pocket special interests to hijack the media spotlight and manipulate elections.
III.
Separation of Church and State. Period. To suggest otherwise is specious and dishonest.
Now, you gonna continue to prevaricate, or are you going to respond?
then you either need to look the word up or you are not being honest about either your comment or your interest in other ways to look at these SCOTUS opinions.
1) You REALLY don't think that the statement might be taken as promoting illegal drug use?
2) ALL special interest money? DUDE! ALL money is special interest. Are you gonna ban MY money. I AM a special interest. EVERY INDIVIDUAL is a special interest, about as special as they get.
Consider for a moment the situation we’ve gotten ourselves into,…A billionaire can decide to put himself on the ticket (at least as an Independent… ala Bloomberg), but a billionaire cannot decide to put someone else on the ticket, say for example Colin Powell. The reason more Colin Powells don’t enter elective politics is because they know they that would have to spend almost ALL of their time raising $2500 ONE PERSON AT A TIME. I’m completely against 100% government funded campaigns (and so is EVERY Supreme Court). I say take off ALL monetary restrictions EXCEPT DEMAND FULL DISCLOSURE OF EVERY PENNY.
I think that the SC majority did indeed think that the 2003 SC ruling that upheld McCain-Feingold was a mistake. I think so as well.
3) Separation of Church and State had nothing to do with the decision. It's clear that you wanted it to be about that, but it wasn't.
-- Modified on 6/26/2007 9:30:24 PM
I'm going to own up to having used the wrong word.
My intent was to convey how answering questions with questions was a ruse or a stall etc... you get the drift... but in the end, you did give me feedback, for which i thank you.
you see, RWU, I'm not looking for a fight or an argument here. The Supreme Court has ruled. I not only disagree with the rulings, I don't fathom how YOU agree with them.
We're not going to agree no matterwhat we tell each other. But perhaps, if I can better understand where you are coming from then maybe somehow it can open the door to finding solutions instead of clusterfucks... but ahh that's just a pipedream, isn't it.
Life's Too Short.
BTW -
1 - I've advocated the legalization of marijuana for 39 years. I have more objection to the Jesus part than the bong hits part. Smoke a Joint for Judaism! There ya go! Equal time!
And speaking of Equal Time...
in response to item #2 - Two things.
2a - Reinstate the Fairness Doctrine.
http://www.museum.tv/archives/etv/F/htmlF/fairnessdoct/fairnessdoct.htm
2b - Ressurect Equal Time
http://www.museum.tv/archives/etv/E/htmlE/equaltimeru/equaltimeru.htm
Funny how Rupert Murdoch figured prominently in the elimination of both regulations.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairness_Doctrine
3 - We see this very differently. Save it for a separate thread.
I truly was trying to help by asking the questions, dissecting the issues by cutting them in half (thereabouts) helps with the logic if one is left with a smaller bite to chew.
At least for the moment)
With any court decision (especially the SCOTUS) it is enticing to bring one's prejudices into it. Of course you can't avoid them coming into it, but too much and it really makes analysis difficult.
For example your views on the legality of pot should have no bearing on your view points of that decision, unless you were hoping that by some illegal stretch of juris-prudence the SCOTUS would take the opportunity of this case to legalize POT. The fact is that it IS illegal and if you don’t accept that in your review, then you take a turn (right or left, no matter) from which you will not recover.
The Fairness Doctrine? Media, in all its many forms is woven into everyone’s life today to such a degree and in SO many forms that the fairness doctrine of 30 years ago should be DOA. It came from a time when there were only THREE electronic sources for EVRYONE’S news (CBS, NBC, ABC). When opinions hit the airwaves it was for 5 minutes a day. It’s not unreasonable to say under those circumstances that it would be good to give 5 minutes to an opposing view and it was easily self policed. But today, there are opposing views available from multitudes of sources. Pick a media source today and tell me how it’s going to be policed. Show me a view point that isn’t countered, albeit sometimes in another media form.
The Court came up with a perverse interpretation to get around the precedent for student speech rights laid out in the Tinker decision by concluding that the speech contained in the banner was "offensively lewd and indecent." I wonder how the Christian Right will react to Jesus being declared offensively lewd and indecent by the Supreme Court.
While the banner might have been nothing but “gibberish,” the chief justice said, it was reasonable for the principal, who “had to decide to act — or not act — on the spot,” to decide both that it promoted illegal drug use and that “failing to act would send a powerful message to the students in her charge, including Frederick, about how serious the school was about the dangers of illegal drug use.”
He added, “The First Amendment does not require schools to tolerate at school events student expression that contributes to those dangers.”
I agree.
""Justice Stevens said that “carving out pro-drug speech for uniquely harsh treatment finds no support in our case law and is inimical to the values protected by the First Amendment.”""
So, school admin has NO business squelching the promotion of illegal behavoir amongst other school kids???
This is how selfcentered dopers are.
Squelching illegal behavior, yes. Squelching speech, no. Do you really think the goal of the banner was to promote illegal drug use rather than jsut geting it on TV when the Olympic torch came by?
both most likely, if it were me in my youth
but then, the prinicipal has to make a decision
IMO, the courts have undermined admins authority to the point where chaos reigns supreme.
it is terrible what we have done and allowed to be done to public schools
Only the results matter.
You missed the point. The established standard for prohibiting student speech is that it has to have a disruptive effect. This was an outdoor event that was off school property which made it impossible to claim that it had a disruptive effect on school. To get get around these findings of the lower court and achieve the reversal the Supreme Court came up with its lewd and offensive interpretation.
""The established standard for prohibiting student speech is that it has to have a disruptive effect.""
I believe that to the case here anyways.
My support is the precedent established by the decision in Tinker v. Des Moines Independent Community School District, although the Roberts courts doesn't appear to be too clear on the concept of precedents so far. Which is surprising because in his confirmation hearings before the Senate Roberts said he was committed upholding Court precedents:
“Hamilton, in Federalist No. 78, said that, to avoid an arbitrary discretion in the judges, they need to be bound down by rules and precedents. So, even that far back, the founders appreciated the role of precedent in promoting evenhandedness, predictability, stability, adherence of integrity in the judicial process.”
So is perjury in Congressional testimony grounds for impeachment and removal of a federal judge, or does Republican belief in the rule of law only apply to Democrats?
what perjury are you talking about? I did'nt know this case involved perjury.
the Tinker arguement is persuasive, but don't run off the road with your hair on fire with me now...
The case before the court didn't involve perjury, but in his Senate confirmation hearings Chief Justice Roberts committed perjury by promising to uphold Supreme Court precedents and then doing the exact opposite once he got on the court.
Precedents do get overturned.
Were that not the case, we'd still be living with Plessy v Ferguson, Lochner v NY, etc...[1905 - restricted tha ability o fstate gov't to regulate the working conditions of bakers. Basis : it was an interference in the right of individuals to contract and hire out their labor].
Courthouses are mage of granite and marble, the decisions handed down in those palaces of justice are not.
-- Modified on 6/27/2007 8:01:17 PM
-- Modified on 6/28/2007 6:59:36 PM
Actually, BK, a lengthly post re the "Bongs Hit" decision erased by a crash.
I'll try again.
But I could not believe a guy as sensible as Tuscayan could actually suggest the possibility og perjury by Roberts during his confirmation hearings.
-- Modified on 6/28/2007 5:21:38 PM
Your credibilty is flying out of it...
precedent is never incorrect and is always applicable to every situation.
in the opinion are far from your interpretation... or was it not yours?
http://www.supremecourtus.gov/opinions/06pdf/06-278.pdf
Please point me to the page in the 60 pages of opinion that supports your citation. I read every page surrounding each occurrence containing the phrase "lewd and indecent" and I just don't see it.
-- Modified on 6/27/2007 8:24:59 PM
First Amendment rights are the most precious rights we have, but the court are making decisions based on political and economic interests rather than a constitution rationale. For instance, I find disturbing the court decided in defacto that essentially:
1) Reduced the personal rights to free speech. In the case of "Bong hits 4 Jesus". The court decided that it was reasonable for people to think the student was adovocating illegal drug use. Huh! since when did Supreme Court justices started regulating humor. Though I disgreed with the student's message, I did laugh. Forgive me Jesus.
2. Increased the right of corporations and other highly funded interests to say whatever they want to say. Seven corporations now owe 90 percent of the telecommunication system from print media to television. If Murdoch wants to fund commercials that lie about a candidates qualifications such as his support of Sen. Hilliary Clinton he can as long as he has the money. If Nike wants to falsely advertise their shoes they can as long as they have the money. Its all free speech but a kid can't say: "Bong hits 4 Jesus".
Something is wrong, and I don't like it.
-- Modified on 6/26/2007 7:18:48 PM
misrepresent all manner of important shit of immense public concern.
They're called, among others :
1. FOX News
2. The NY Post
3. The Weekly Standard
Not to mention whatever egregious prevarications he subvents in his media properties outside of North America, Xrist, how did this guy become a US citizen? Hint: ask Al D'Amato about private mmigration bills.
Next up, The Wall Street Journal?
To his immense credit, the current Mrs. Murdoch does look pretty hot and exotic. Well, at least old Rupe ain't a total waste across the Board.
Wonder if he hobbies?
If you were interested in free speech you would rejoice in the McCain/Feingold defanging. That had a few more ramifications than some pothead's t-shirt.