With the death of the Monster Arafat, opportunities for genuine progress in the Middle East do seem to be presenting themselves. But before any real progress can be made towards a genuine peaceful co-existence, the following MUST happen:
First and foremost, all Arab nations must once and for all, unambiguously recognize Israel as a country.
Secondly, the Palestinian government must immediately and unambiguously rewrite their charter to also specifically recognize the State of Israel. Their charter to this day does not recognize Israels right to exist.Their maps do not show Israel and the (Conquored, Occupied or Disputed, whichever best suits your point of view) territories, only a single unified Palestinian land stretching from the Mediterranean to the Jordan River, and from Lebanon to the Sinai with Jerusalem as its capital. There is no acknowledgement of the existence of Israel whatsoever.
Third, Stop teaching Arab children to hate Jews. Currently, hatred of the Jew as Satan who drinks their blood for ritual sacrifice is taught to each and every Palestinian-schooled child above the age of 3. When children are indoctrinated to such a deep hatred, they are then easily manipulated into becoming homicide bombers.
Until these steps are taken, true peace in the Middle East aint gonna happen, and don't expect concessions from Israel to countries that won't even recognize her right to exist.
The first move, really is up to the Arabs. NOT the Palestinian Authority, but those Arab countries who do not recognize Israel.
... or does Israel still need to limit their citizenship to "preserve the nature of the Jewish State"?
Given the demographics, won't Israel become an Arab State in 20 years? What will they do then? Isn't Israel, also under a lot of pressure to find a way to live with it's neighbors. If they take the attitude you seem to describe, aren't they going to have major problems over time? They will represent a state that does not reflect the opinions of the majority of people that live there.
you do have a valid point, one that deserves further discussion. But before that, I would like your take on this:
Why is it that Arab citizens living in Israel enjoy a higher standard of living than a majority of Arabs living in Arab lands?
Why aren't Jews allowed into Arab countries?
When did the murder of innocent children in their beds and in pizza parlors become morally equivalent to the bulldozing of buildings and targeted attacks on military leaders.
How many Jewish children have been identified as suicide bombers?
How can you reasonably expect to make peace with people who are willing to sacrifice their children so easily, so joyfully?
"we shall have peace with our neighbors only when they begin to love their children more than they hate ours." - Golda Meir
Yes of course I'm emotionally subjective, my recent posts leave no doubt of that. But Harry, I find that you and I agree on alot more than we disagree on, so maybe you can give me the flipside.
...Israel has the right to exist. The second very large area of agreement is that of the Arab Attitudes to Israel are Racist and not excusable. A third very large area of agreement is that Israel has the right to defend itself.
However, if Israel is to survive the next 50 years, it will have to find some new thinking -- a way to break out of this terrible cycle. It has no real choice. Currently, I do not see the country or it's people being willing to take off their blinders enough to start this process.
Earlier, I suggested that the government agree to bury Arafat in Israel. There are a thousand arguments against it. I saw most of them posted on the board. However, imagine what that particular olive branch might have done for the possability of normalized relations. Further, if you think about, it would not have cost Israel a fucking thing and certainly would not have made their security situation any worse (and there is a big possability that it might be made better).
Instead, we heard about what a Terrorist Asshole / Homosexual / Thief the man was and "good riddance".
Cool down the tough talk for a while and maybe the Arabs will have enough breathing space to figure it out for themselves. Most of the time, the talk sounds like two crazed teenage boys flipping their weenies at each other.
In my life, I have changed my motto from "never forget" to "get over it because things have to change".
Harry, burying Arafat in Jerusalem would have lended legitimacy to the Palestinian claim to Jerusalem, something the Israeli's won't do. Secondly, burying Yasser Arafat in Jerusalem would be anathema to the Israeli's and Jews just as much as burying Osama Bin Laden with honors at Ground Zero in New York would be to any American.
It would not be an olive branch at all, it would be seen by the Arab world as capitulation. And as history has proven in the Middle East in 1948,1956, 1967,1973,1982,1993,1999,2001 and 2004, any show of restraint by Israel will be seen as weakness by the Arab world, and exploited. Israel doesn't want to destroy the Arabs, but the Arabs definitely want to destroy Israel and the Jews. These and other reasons having nothing to do with Arafat's personal profile are why he will never be buried in Jerusalem.
If you've read alot of Tom Friedman, forgive me for my poor paraphrasing of his stuff but it really resonates with me.
The solution seems quite simple. Both sides should agree to recognize the other, respect boundaries and split the land. If Israeli Palestinians were productive members of society the Israeli Jews could presumably accept them, and vice versa. If there was agreement on land, the Arabs won't need to teach their kids that Jews are animals and the jews wouldn't teach their kids that the Palestinians were the "runts of the middle east" (a direct quote from a friend of mine).
However, the problem, IMHO, is that Jews and Arabs are stuck in a centuries-long childhood squabble. For it to get resolved, one side must make the first overture and leap of faith that the other will follow. But, as MasterZed has suggested, those gestures are seen in this twisted world as a sign of weakness. This is precisely why Arafat couldn't follow Oslo - fear of being seen as weak by the extremists.
... as an agreement that Arabs and Jews both hold the area sacred and that both groups want to go this place because of their respective faiths.
I don't know how the Arabs would see the situation. Some would undoubtly think the way you describe. Others might see it as an olive branch. In any case, "people" don't think things, individuals do. For me at least, my problems with other individuals go on longer than they have to when I decide beforehand how the other person will think and react to what I do.
Regardless of what Arabs would "think", my suggestion wouldn't change the security situation on the ground. It has the chance that at least some Arabs might see the guesture for what it was -- Israel reaching out to improve the situation.
If you don't like this, perhaps you can suggest a guesture that actually looks like a guesture. I believe your feelings characterize Israeli opinion and government policy. iRght now, the things you have said sound like a frightened person who is not confident enough to make the first move.
Israel over the years has made numerous overtures to the Arabs to sit down and talk, and it was years before the Arabs were willing to talk, and most of the time it was not done seriously. Sadat was serious, and the benefits of that to both the Egyptians and the Israelis are and have been obvious. Ehud Barak offered a peace deal to Arafat (who I think was an incredible piece of shit) that gave the Arabs just about everything they wanted, and at the last minute Arafat asks for "the right of return" (which, of course, is no right at all) when he knew that would never happen, thus ending (for the time being) any hope of peace in the area. Israel has made first moves in the past, only to be rejected every time. Indeed, the only "first move" the Arabs have ever made is to say LEAVE THE AREA! Hell, they don't even recognize Israel. Israel doesn't exist on maps in Arab schools, and Arab children are taught to hate Israelis before they can read. The anti-semetic attitudes in Europe are only adding fuel to the fire, and the one thing that I've learned from all this lately is that Hitler was far from being the only slimeball in Europe. So, if the Arabs are willing (and I'm sure many are, but not perhaps their leadership) to sit down and talk rationally about peace and seriously change their poisonous view of Israel, then it seems to me that it would behoove the Israelis to listen and find common grounds to compromise and reach an agreement that is fair to all. But if the Arabs continue to try to blow up pizza parlors and kill babies in their cribs, then Israel should continue to build that wall and do EVERYTHING in its power to protect its people. Since the world (ex the USA and precious few other countries) will condemn Israel no matter what it does, then by all means Israel should do whatever it feels is necessary to protect and defend itself. Like MasterZed, my life has been impacted by what has transpired over there, and there is nothing anyone can say that could change my mind. Concessions should be made by both sides for REAL PEACE, but until that happens, Israel should stand firm.
and an elementary application of deductive logic and reasoning.
As long as the stated goal of the Arab world is the destruction of the state of israel, as long as the Palestinian charter refuses to recognize at the least a side by side two state solution with formal recognition for Israel, and until the children are taught to respect, not hate their Jewish neighbors, any further efforts and concessions by the Israeli's would be pointless.
DESPITE THIS... since the death of the uncircumsized Philistine Arafat, Ariel Sharon, proposing what he called a test for a new Palestinian leadership, said on Thursday it could show its desire for peace by ending anti-Israeli "incitement" even before the crackdown he has long demanded it launch against the terrorists. Sharon is already reversing his policies of no negotiating while terrorism is rampant. Now all hes saying is "stop teaching your children to hate us, stop promoting hatred in your media."
The response from Mahmoud Abbas was an outright rejection.
... It won't be in the lifetime of their grandchildren. Change and population pressures will negate any position of strength that Isreal has today. I used the word "frightened" deliberatly: I think it is the opposite of "courageous". Note that I am not suggesting Israel do anything that would reduce it's security, just that it reach out in a symbolic way and bury a dead man.
Courage and wisdom come from doing the best possible thing you can do at any given time. If Israel waits for the Arabs to change, they lose. Time is not on their side.
Everyone involved in the conflict has their own horrible memories. Everyone involved in the conflict clearly feels they are not at fault. Fault does not matter. There is no justice to be found here. There is nobody to say the other guy is wrong and make it right. Once that is understood, it has profound implications. They are that everybody is going to have to learn to get along. Further, if everybody doesn't get along, they could all end up killing each other. As a person outside the conflict, my greatest hope is that we do not get pulled into the tragedy that will erupt if this happens.
... Also, I think your sense of history can cause you some problems in the end if you are not very careful.
History can sometimes be a Gorgan Knot that binds you to a cycle of limiting behaviors. Somebody has to be an Alexander and cut the knot. In the history of this region, Sadat has come closest to being that Alexander. Maybe it is time one is found in the Israel's leadership.
Israel will NEVER compromise its security, but it will most certainly make concessions once its security becomes reality. But Harry, give up on this Arafat burial thing. Arafat was a perfidious liar who couldn't be trusted on anything, and was DIRECTLY responsible for MANY, MANY Israeli deaths. For Israel to "reach out in a symbolic way and bury a dead man," as you put it, would be viewed as a total betrayal of all Israel stands for. It would be viewed as honoring Arafat, and there's NO WAY that Israel could or would do something like that. I don't think you realize the extent of hatred that Israelis in particular and Jews in general have for Arafat (and his memory). It would be equivalent to burying Hitler (a piece of shit even bigger than Arafat) in a place of honor. At any rate, the SOB is buried in Ramallah, so its a dead issue.
Harry, you said that if Israel waits for the Arabs to change, they lose. What are you suggesting? That Israel just accept the wanton killing of its citizens for the rest of time? Israel has always been willing to talk, and with security dealt with in a way that ends the killing, bargain and compromise. The end of hostilities with Egypt proves that. But Israel also remembers, vividly, what happened in Europe during WWII, and will NEVER ALLOW THAT TO HAPPEN AGAIN! Yes, I will acknowledge that a potential outcome in the future could be really ugly, but Israel will simply NOT capitulate. I think virtually all Israelis accept this possibility while at the same time hoping that it never comes to pass, and that cooler and wiser heads prevail. But the Arabs have to be willing to talk seriously, and accept compromise on some of their positions too. So far, they have steadfastly refused to do this, and that's a formula for continual conflict. Remember, it takes at least one person on each side of the issue to negotiate, and so far on the Arab side there is no-one.
... perhaps all the fault is on the Arabs. I don't really care. What I suggested was that they offer to bury Arafat on the Temple Mount in an area near one of the Mosques. As a dead men, he is unlikely to make Israel any less secure than it is today.
Think about it for a minute. As a gesture, it has little or no cost, no downside, and a lot of potential upside. Think of the pressure it would put on Palestine to make some gesture.
If you can't stand this idea, it won't happen. Figure out something on your own, make it work, or lose in the long run.
and it would prove to be a gesture with great cost, as it would create legitimacy to Arab claims on that area which Israel rejects. I disagree with you completely that it would put pressure on the Arabs to make a gesture. It would have simply given them more incentive to make further irrational demands. I can't stand the idea - many others can't stand the idea - and it is NOT going to happen. Indeed, the SOB is already buried elsewhere, so, as I've stated before, it's a DEAD ISSUE. Israel remains open to rational thought and constructive dialogue, and that's the only way things will get better over there. So long as Europe kowtows to Arab intransigence, not much will happen. And as I said before, since much of the world will condemn Israel no matter what it does, it will simply do what is best for its citizens. So, we disagree completely on some of the issues over there, although I do believe we both want peace to prevail. And I do not believe that Israel will lose in the long run. Either peace will eventually come to the area, or the saying "Never Again" will take on a meaning whereby EVERYONE in the Middle East will lose. Israel is committed to its existence no matter what the course, which much of the world doesn't seem to understand.
What if the Israeli's DID agree to allow Arafat to be buried at the Temple Mount? What would you envision as being an appropriate Arab/Palestinian response? Now before you answer that, please let me share this:
Everyone keeps insisting the Israeli's make concession after concession. Land for Peace. The Oslo accords. Camp David. Each time, Arafat and/or the Arab leaders in question broke their word with impunity and once again, Israel was on the defensive while being vilified in the world press, the United Nations, and in a whole lot of redneck country newspapers. The Israeli's were willing to give Arafat 95% of what he wanted, including East Jerusalem at Camp David in 1999, but Arafat rejected it, then used Sharons visit to the Temple Mount as an excuse to launch Intifada II. Guess what, if Arafat hadn't been so fucking foolishly greedy and selfishly corrupt, he would be buried in East Jerusalem right now.
Now, Sharon has begun implementing his unilateral withdrawal plan from Gaza. Even though it has cost him heavily among his former most ardent supporters, and against the wishes of many in Israel. Regardless of the tactical or strategic reasons for doing so, its still another expenditure of energy by ISRAEL towards achieving a measure of peace and security. Whats the result? More terrorism and suicide bombings and contemptible hatred oozing from the Arab world. Harry, don't you get it? Nothing the Israeli's do short of total self-annihilation will satisfy the Arab/Palestinian/Muslim world. Their words, actions, political and military and economic hostility to all things Jewish and Zionist will not be tempered by a flaccid show of cooperation.
The Arab world has Arafat to thank for the fact they will never again get as good as deal as they were offered by Ehud Barak. At some point, his evil and corruption will be recognized and acknowledged, and then noone will care where his carcass has been left to rot.
So... Harry, (or anyone else) you were saying something about an appropriate Palestinian response to the hypothetical issue of what they would do if Arafat were buried in Jerusalem.
That would be a fitting DOUBLE-CROSS to the Godfather of terror, the murderer of Israeli infants, children, women. The murderer of Paletinians that disagreed with him. the embezzler of hundreds of millions of dollars, the double crosser of 4 American presidents (Willie clinton being the dumbest of them all).
I say bury his dead butt on Temple Mount then blow his dead butt up. HE WONT FEEL NOTHING. And it will bring it to a head. Those dumbass Palestinians can get all upset and huff and puff and talk tuff. I'm thru f**king around. Israel has held out the olive branch for 40 plus f**king years and all that ever happens to us is to get whacked over the head w/a baseball bat.
As Americans we tend to view things from an American perspective. We think of countries as being constructs and religions as being private. Well that’s not the case everywhere. In the mid-east religion is real in that the people seem to really believe it. The land is yours from god it is not owned.
If you look at Judaism, Christianity, and Islam they are the same religion. Judaism was first and its creators made the mistake of inserting the messiah idea into it. I’m sure that this was designed as a morale booster. Anyway, someone called their bluff, or was crazy enough to believe that they were, and the messiah was born. This then invalidated Judaism. The Muslims decided to add a new prophet with his updated info from god, and so that invalidated both Judaism and Christianity.
Imagine that you actually believe this stuff is true. That would make the existence of the other groups kind of abhorrent. From the Muslim perspective these other groups refuse to acknowledge the wonderfully message of god! It says in the Quaran and the Talmud that god offered his knowledge to all other people but they refused it. In the case of the Quaran the Arabs were moral enough to take it and in the case of the Talmud the Jews were moral enough to take it. So, that means that hardcore Jews think that they are more moral than anyone else and the same goes for hardcore Muslims. That means that culturally these two groups are inherently prejudice.
They don’t see it that way of course as they believe that they are right.
So, peace can never happened over there as long as people actually believe in their religion. It’s that simple.
I believe that psychological warfare is the only way for the rest of the world to get some peace from these people. What was done to Japan needs to be done to them, in the sense that they need a cultural overhaul. This has to be done slowly.
Perhaps aerially dumping Snoop dog CDs on them would help but I’m not sure. However, as a 38 year old I will bet that when I die all of this will still be going on.
The problem is the jewish community continues to place israel ahead of America. All i do is point out selfish jewish actions. That doesn't make me an extremist.
The fact is many jews have either published or discussed how american jews place israel before the country they reside in. Freedman, Stein ect...
Check my post on the next page for my views on the whole Jewish issue. I think that you might find it interesting.
I think that there is a big difference between ethnic and religious Jews.
Frankly, any group that believes that a god is telling or has told it what it needs to do is dangerous. Certainly, this kind of group is not going to care about it's current community at all. That is one of the reasons why Hitler when after Jews and other groups in Germany. He saw them as being antisocial.
However, a baby is not part of a group. Also, a non-zealot that is part of a group is not dangerous. That's why I don't like groups of people being named as bad. In my view Zionists are bad, but only them. William Shatner is Jewish and I bet that he isn't an extreme Zionist. I only hate those worthy of it.
I think that people like you get refelively attacked due to a post WWII cultural reaction against saying anything anti-jewish. This is mindles really. Also, I think that it's bad for the Jews. In all they do put out an elitist message and people hate that. They have been hated for a very very long time. If you pretend that nothing is wrong with them guess what you get? A potential explosion. Currently, we are have yet another war that has to do with the Jews. I think that we need to globally debunk religion and try to end the centuries long craziness.
do outlandish statements like "jews created and own the Federal Reserve" and "jews own the media" equate to "selfish jewish actions?" Now you come up with another one of your inane statements "the problem is the jewish community continues to place Israel ahead of America." The entire Jewish community, huh? Do you have any proof of this? Of course not - it's another one of your idiotic statements! The HUGE majority of American Jews are AMERICANS that support Israel, but place America first above all. And despite the fact that you're not capable of understanding the concept, Funtime, you most definitely ARE an extremist, and an obviously bigoted one at that.
Most important, I want what's best for America too. But there's one thing I know that you obviously do not - bigoted statements that are maliciously directed at other groups of people are definitely NOT what's best for America. America is the best country in the world because of the great contributions made by people from a variety of races and religions. I think you need to visit the Statue of Liberty and learn what it represents.
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