In a recent post you stated:  “When a country reaches a level of advancement, development, and maturity, then a move towards social programs and egalitarians thoughts is necessary.  Look at Nordic countries.”

Since democracy is still fairly young in historical terms and socialistic democracies only began to appear in the last 40 years the basis for your comment is tenuous at best in that only now we are seeing the fruits of that folly.  

Here are some from an article by James K. Glassman (linked below) on the European Union that universally have embraced socialism and egalitarian ideals.  Which is fast becoming the fools paradise that logic foretold.  

From a 2002 Pew Research Center survey:

1. Americans are happier and more optimistic than Europeans (and we should be).  Americans are more satisfied with income, family life and job.

2. Asked about the near future 61% of Americans are optimistic and just 7% pessimistic.  By contrast 35% of Europeans were optimistic and 19% were pessimistic.

3. In the past year the GDP of the Euro Zone (not including Britain) grew at just 1.3% while the American GDP grew at 4.4%.

4. Unemployment in France is 9.9%, Germany 10.5%, Spain 11.4% and in contrast in America its 5.7%.

5. Over the last decade Germany, Europe’s most robust economy grew at just 1.3% versus our economy at 3.3%.  The reason is quite obvious; Europe is overtaxed, over-regulated for a welfare system that discourages work and a guild mentality that deters entrepreneurship.

Andrew Grimson wrote recently about Europe, “This civilization has the defects of its virtues.  Its peaceful but passive; stable but stagnant; morally concerned but preposterously self-righteous.”

6. Europe’s vaunted state-run retirement and state run health-care systems are on the verge of collapse.  Price controls have chased drug research to the U.S.  Europeans wait in line for even the most common procedures as hip replacements.  (The Prime Minister of Sweden got his after an 8-month wait.)

7. As crime has declined sharply in the US, it has exploded in Europe.  The rate of victimization even in Sweden is 20% higher than the US.  Crime is hitting new highs in Paris, Stockholm, Amsterdam and Madrid.  

8. The birth rate is 1.3%, far below the 2.1% replacement rate. How happy is a society that does not want to have children.

And this is the standard that Quiet American espouses for our great Nation?  I say no fucking way!  You want that cradle to grave, bland, hopeless existence, move there.  Don't attempt to saddle America with the European illness!

P.S.  Norway has the highest suicide rate of any developed nation!   (Developed nation; i.e. "indoor plumbing")

In point of fact, in BOTH places, it's almost ENTIRELY due to the widespread depression that sets in during the arctic winter.  

And, by your own choice of the statistic of birth rate as a proxy for happiness, it would make the case that the most affluent parts of American society are the least happy, while the poorest (which happen to have the highest birthrates) are the happiest.  Which is sheer nonsense.

Still, we are impressed that you keep finding creative new ways to craft your B.S.

Dear Bribite, there are good answers for all you have raised.  I will gradually post my thoughts. This is a very busy weekend for me, but as always, appreciate your postings, although we are rarely in agreements.

By the way, there are large gaps between for example Denmark and say Hungary. Europe is not quite as homogenous as we think of, or feel during a short trip.

By the way, let's not put too much trust in what American Enterprise Institute says.  Remember how much hoopla they raised about Iraq WMD? I turst what they say, as much as I trust John Birch society, KKK, the old Pravda, or Saddam Hussein't minister of Information, Mr. Al-Sahaf [did I get the name right?]

None of these of course is a substitute for a point by point response to the article.

-- Modified on 6/19/2004 12:06:36 PM

1. Americans are happier and more optimistic than Europeans (and we should be).  Americans are more satisfied with income, family life and job.

My response: My focus and thoughts were not at all of Europe.  Europe is not as homgenous as it seems from over here.  In terms of all that matters, the Scandinavian countries population, are much better off than an average American.  Free healthcare, by and large free education, generous retirement and unemployment benefits, and I could go on and on ..

2. Asked about the near future 61% of Americans are optimistic and just 7% pessimistic.  By contrast 35% of Europeans were optimistic and 19% were pessimistic.

My response: See above, also, remember what Mark Twain said, there are lies, there are damned lies, and then there are statistics!

3. In the past year the GDP of the Euro Zone (not including Britain) grew at just 1.3% while the American GDP grew at 4.4%.

My response: Europe has limited resources, and has reached near the peak of its growth potential.  Not because of the system failures, but just the maturity of evolution. This is the precise reason it is moving towards providing more generous safety net for its citizens. We still have ways to go, India and China, along with the rest of the developing world have light years to go.  As long as growth takes place, economic vibrancy takes care of everything and everyone. It is when the growth stops, we need to be more caring


4. Unemployment in France is 9.9%, Germany 10.5%, Spain 11.4% and in contrast in America its 5.7%.

My answer:  Yes, that is my point.  When we reach these numbers, due to highly efficient structures, is when we need to rethink about our social programs.

Let me give you an example. There are 100s of thousands of Americans in telecom industry out of job.  Some highly educated. There is no more massive growth in telecom. What do we do now? Let these people die?

5. Over the last decade Germany, Europe’s most robust economy grew at just 1.3% versus our economy at 3.3%.  The reason is quite obvious; Europe is overtaxed, over-regulated for a welfare system that discourages work and a guild mentality that deters entrepreneurship.

My answer: No, the reason for lack of growth is full maturity, not lack of free enterprise opportunities.  I give you the telecom example again.  You can apply Steel, Auto, and all others in different eras.  

When I was growing up (now you can guess my age!) GM owned 53% of the auto market. Today, about 15%

Andrew Grimson wrote recently about Europe, “This civilization has the defects of its virtues.  Its peaceful but passive; stable but stagnant; morally concerned but preposterously self-righteous.”

My answer: I am not sure what he said is bad!

6. Europe’s vaunted state-run retirement and state run health-care systems are on the verge of collapse.  Price controls have chased drug research to the U.S.  Europeans wait in line for even the most common procedures as hip replacements.  (The Prime Minister of Sweden got his after an 8-month wait.)

My answer:  There are 10s of millions here who don't have health insurance.  Which is worse?  I haven't been in downtown LA in a long time. Occassionally I had to drive through Broadway at midnight, and seeing people, en masse, sleeping in the street was a total embarrassment to me.

7. As crime has declined sharply in the US, it has exploded in Europe.  The rate of victimization even in Sweden is 20% higher than the US.  Crime is hitting new highs in Paris, Stockholm, Amsterdam and Madrid.  

My answer:  This is an absolute medacity! Europe is far safer than the U.S!!!  Murder rate in the U.S. is astronomic compare to Europe, unless to take Russia as part of Europe!  Your statistics about Sweden is simpley not true old bro!

8. The birth rate is 1.3%, far below the 2.1% replacement rate. How happy is a society that does not want to have children.

My answer:  I think the answer is pretty obvious!  Raisng childre responsibly is a major effort. Backward countries have high birthrate, but I don't want to live in a backward country, neither would you.

And this is the standard that Quiet American espouses for our great Nation?  I say no fucking way!  You want that cradle to grave, bland, hopeless existence, move there.  Don't attempt to saddle America with the European illness!

P.S.  Norway has the highest suicide rate of any developed nation!   (Developed nation; i.e. "indoor plumbing")

My answer:  In certain cultures, specfically Northern European, suicide is not stigmaized, rather than an honorable thing under the right circumstances. If you read Friedrich Nietzsche
writings there are clear references to life, if cannot be lived honorably, is not woth living.

The highest rate of suice in the U.S. is for white men in their late 50s.  

When I mention developed countries, I mean equivlant of Abraham Maslow's pyramid, but not for individuals, rather for a nation.

1.  The Pew Research study was of EU countries.

2,  See 1

3.  "Not because of the system failures, but just the maturity of evolution."  And their ability to maintain the social giveaway programs in lieu of its aging population will not be sustainable.

4.  I'm sorry, but the thought of Europe's unemployment problem being brought on by too much success is just too asinine to respond to.  Couldn't be abusive taxes and government controls?  lol  Furthermore, our unemployment rate is 5.6 even including your 10's of thousands of Telecom workers out of work and GM controlling only 15% of the auto industry.  You see I would suggest that the Telecom Workers just find another industry, you see to think that we should just let them stay home and collect a "dole" check.

5.  See 4

6.  Not one hospital in the State of California can refuse treatment to anyone for lack of ability to pay.  Fuck, in California we even paid for a heart transplant for an asshole on death row!  There are enough shelters for all of those bums on skid row, they just have to stop drinking and drugging to gain entrance.  It's their choice.

7.  Check your stats, the record speaks for it self.

8.  The birthrate of 2.1% replacement rate is not even comparable to "backward countries".  It is the minimum needed to sustain the population.  You know the overtaxed peasants that pay for all of the social giveaway programs that the boomer generation is expecting!  And at current rates will not receive.

Suicide is not stigmatized?  And you think the population of Norway are all followers of Frederick Nietzsche?  You seem to be able to justify anything.

Europe is imploding under the weight move of its socialism, it is obvious, when people believe they can get something for nothing, they will vote that way.  But sooner or later even the producers of society join the ranks and then nobody is left to pay the bill.  The EU will be there in the boomers lifetime, actually considering how France is already cutting benefits, and the riots that are rising over it, the implosion is already happening.  Do you blame that on their success too?