Read both articles very carefully!!  As I have said before and continue to say, this will be worst than Vietnam.  Anyone who understands the middle east saw this coming.  The goal isn't to defeat the US army, rather to plunge Iraq into a civil war and hence humiliate the US and make our military look weak without having to kill 58,000 like vietnam.  
  Again, for those who truly understand the Middle East, you see whats coming.  And for those of you who don't "kids are going to school, and hospitals are open."  
   What Iraq is on the edge of and eventually will become will have made the entire world 10 times more dangerous than it ever was.  Make no mistake, once even small clashes between sunnis and shias start to erupt directly, we will have reached a point of no return.  No one will be able to stop the escalation.  If it blows up the US will have no choice, regardless of who the president is, to withdraw.  It will get to a point where even if we do withdraw, the insurgency will not subside.  The goal is a haven for terrorism and that is exactly what it is about to become.  
  The icing on the cake is if we withdraw and Iraq plunges into civil war, then the world and the middle east can blame us.  No matter how you look at it the US is losing and will lose this battle.  Not militiraly, but in terms of national security, global stability, Middle East terrorism, and credible foreign policy.  
 
   


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,7374-1698308,00.html
http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/ns/news/story.jsp?id=2005071809030002945365&dt=20050718090300&w=RTR&coview

  Its really no surprise.  Anyone who wasn't drinking freely from the Kool-Aid fountains(aka W's war piss) knew this was bound to happen.  This was as predictable as the sun rising in the east.  150,000 US troops in the heart of the Middle East for regime change!!  What the fuck else did they think was going to happen??
  This fuck up will eventually dwarf Vietnam!!  Not in the number of US troops killed, but the dire consequences the entire world will face because of what that country is plunging into slowly but surely.  The entire world will pay a heavy price one day for Iraq.  
  I truly weep for this great nation of ours.  To think that it is in the hands it is in today kills me inside.  This admin and a majority of modern day congress isn't worth defecating on!!!!!  Just so god damn sad!!!!!

your brains  
   You get it, a good portion of this country gets it, and a majority of the world gets it(which is why they were so vehemently against this god forsaken war.)  



-- Modified on 7/18/2005 7:56:08 PM

The two wisest sayings I ever saw were inscribed as graffiti into my desk at the U.C. of Berkeley in the '70's:

"Fighting for democracy in Vietnam is like fucking for virginity."

and

"To do is to be"...Socrates
"To be is to do"...Descartes
"Dobe dobe do".....Sinatra

Of course, only the first quote is relevant for this thread, although I still like the second. The point being is that you cannot spread democracy with the barrel of a gun, no matter how feverently our erstwhile President may wish it. We can, however, attempt to set up an empire with colonies such as Iraq, but even this looks to be beyond our reach.

Since Iraq is degenerating into a civil war (between Sunni, Shia and Kurds) no matter what we do, my guess is that the best we can do is get our troops out and let the Iraqis sort things out for themselves.

I looked in here for some serious political, and now I see your posts, and any serious thinking is right out.

If only more terrorists were cock-terroists like you!

I guess because our nation's own beginning was such an unlikely victory that Americans have since been attracted to winning the impossible fight.  And we got carried away with it after WWII.  Hence, we've had one unwinnable pseudo-war after another, Iraq being the latest, but then there's the war on drugs, Vietnam.  Undeclared wars, pseudo-wars that bled us and still bleed us. Iraq, though, will be a spectacular total disaster for all to see, and not hidden behind a jungle.  The results for the Middle East and for the US will be catastrophic.  

We didn't learn the lessons of Vietnam, or too many of us didn't.  And we put people in power who thought it could be done right.  

But I guess when our main way of learning the message was to entertain ourselves with 11 years of MASH, the lesson couldn't be taken seriously.      

If we've chosen a strategy that continually creates more terrorists than we're neutralizing, then we are losing the war on terror.  It's hard to know what Bush really wanted to win in Iraq.  



-- Modified on 7/19/2005 4:39:47 PM

and the guys running our government walked out of a Stanley Kubrick movie... the cluelessness, the arrogance, the sheer fucking stubborn, self infatuated crusader mentality... God, if this thing falls apart the whole world will change overnight...

...George W. can declare that he personally fought with ol' Neptune, defeated him, and now we can leave Iraq for W.'s triumph in Washington!

Posted by GOPGeezer, 10/12/2004 3:31:04 PM

"Kerry would have impotent Jimmie Carter foreign policy.  He just said so. He just said so.

Bush is gonna open up another can of whup ass on the last dumbass terrorists.

No going back to pre 9/11 no way no how."



Something tells me they STILL don't get it .................

It's not hard to project.  And the actions of Bushies was so easy to predict.  I have been just disgusted and ashamed -- this disgust has nothing to do with Democrats vs Republicans.  If it was the Dems doing this shit I would feel the same.

My point. If ordinary Americans feel this way - Just how the fuck you think ordinary Iraqis / Arabs / ... feel.  If it was your country being turned into a battleground to "flush out" terrorists -- the life of your wife and child threatened every fuckin day -- what the fuck would you do ?  Let me guess, support the "liberators" cause they have been so honest.

demonstrates why all of the BushHaters are not taken seriously by most Americans.  While one can disagree as to strategy, and even the decision to have gone in, the fact is, we've done it now, and the goal should be to accomplish our goals in the most efficient manner possible.

That you (and so many others) cannot do so, and want to continue savaging GWB demonstrates that you are, in fact: (1) cravenly partisan; (2) anti-American; or (3) both.  And the second is not a charge that I throw around lightly (or virtually ever).

the goals have changed so often during this war that it may be about time the adminsitration settled on one. Secondly, your call for one party rule and abject deference to fearless leader seems a bit Stalinist to me. So who is anti-American?

Your post was very 1950s of you. I disagree with you, I'm a traitor, right? So, is it better to be a traitor or a fascist?

I've got a bridge in Brooklyn to sell. Want it?

You're going to fast Nicole, after all this is the U.S. of A.

First, you reconvene the HUAC (House Unamerican Activities Committee), then you start lining up 'prominent' dissidents accused of being traitors (e.g., known Democrats, ACLU members, Howard Dean, etc.) for testimony.... only then may you have firing squads.

Because there are certain protocols to be observed when conducting all-American witch hunts.