In the old testament, at the time of Moses's birth, the Pharaoh ordered that all male babies be killed... this was done by tossing them in the air and harpooning them with their spears... Baby-cobobs.. and God stood idly by and didn't stop it from happening...

Also at the time of Jesus's birth, King Harrad  ordered the killing of all boys under age 2, and they were ripped from their mothers arms and hacked to death right in their houses... and again God stood idly by...

So when some fat-fuck evangelist starts screaming and hollering about "baby killers" at abortion clinics, I tune out... Or shout at him to read his fuckin' Bible before he gets up to preach...

I have been escorted out of a few churches in my lifetime...  

nor wanted.

As the previous moderator of this board I must say something. This would never have seen the light of day if I were still moderating. It is also unusual and probably not polite to criticize the moderation of of the current moderator, but this is simply so over th top, crude and crass that I had to say something.

The lowest form of depravity allows this kind of post.

TMT

...as "former moderator", you often selectively judged according to what fit your adjenda and beliefs... And I found THAT to be "repulsive" as well....

You toss your "offendedness" out there as a reason to allow or dis-allow such posts, yet you skip over the REAL issue at hand... THIS IS ACTUALLY WHAT AN ABORTED FETUS LOOKS LIKE, YOU FOOL!!

You'd rather that the ugliness of an abortion be kept "private" so you can advance your cause of "pro-choice"!

Well, this is the TRUTH of your cause! DEAL WITH IT!!

I stand by my statement, God doesn't really give a shit one way or another about abortion, He will receive the inocent spirit of the child unto himself all same...

BUT, we as "humanity" SHOULD give a shit! We SHOULD care that this child wretched and twisted in it's mother's womb as the tools tore at it's flesh while it was still alive!

Go cry over the picture you saw and wipe the tears from your eyes on a copy of Rowe v/s Waide, that should comfort you...

You're a sad excuse for a man, IMHO...

-- Modified on 3/20/2007 6:57:23 AM

...similarly showing pictures of dead women in back alleys from botched abortions, should Roe v. Wade be overturned?

... My point is not the typical "anti-abortion" tripe of the evangelicals, I an more against the brutality of the procedure to the inocent child... I also don't believe abortion is "murder" as the evangelicals whould believe...

I just question why in this day and age of medical possiblities we don't FIRST painlessly kill the fetus before removing it?

Rowe/Weide is a false law that avoids the true issue, merely by cloaking the issue in the privacy clause...IMHO

(It might surprise you that I'm probably far more "liberal" on this issue that most pro-choicers... I think it's the parent's right to do with the child as they want to, before and after it's born, until it's age of accountability, which is 12 or 13...

Would many atrocities be commited if this were the law? yes, but millions are commited now, the only diffrence is on which side of the vagina we are willing to allow it to be done...

And it is the raw-truth of abortion... How can an open discussion be had when the truth is suppressed??

If I merely wanted "shock", I'd just post pics from the Hannibal movie, but those aren't related to the abortion issue...

What I find most shocking is how many people would rather deal with these realities by buring their heads in their asses...

What is the background of this particular procedure?

What term in the pregnancy was this procedure performed in?

Was the health of the mother at risk, necessitating this procedure?

Just showing a graphic image does nothing to enlighten the topic at hand.  Unless reasonable discussion is the main target of this "scud missile" of a pic.

Until an age of accountability is reached, children are "inocent" and go to Heaven unjudged..
It is my belief that the age of personal-responsiblity is 12 or 13, however, In the case of adult retards that never develop a level or sense of accountability, I believe they are held to an account consistant with their abilities, not with a fixed age in years... however, this is merely my "opinion"... nothing more...

Isn't it more compassionate to kill children and guarantee their ascendance into the Kingdom of Heaven?  Why give them the chance to fuck up their free ticket into Heaven?

... nor do they particularly matter to me... I'm fully aware that the picture does not represent "all" abortions, it's merely representative of THIS abortion...

there's thousands of "post abortion pics" on the internetI didn't even choose the most graphic one... In all honesty, I chose it due to "convenience"... It was a jpeg, which makes it easy to re-post on TER, and it was easy to identify as a "baby", where as many others are so mangled they look more like hamburger...

I really have no problem with sucking out a glob of tissue in the first few weeks of a pregnancy, whether it contains a "soul" or not is irrelevant...

I have issue with no reguard given to pain in the later terms... why not painlessly kill it first before hacking into it??

Personally, I think in some cases of "life of the mother", it may be better to cut the dying mother from around the child... discard her and save the inocent baby... Sice when is an adult more equal than a child??

... and avoid the conception all together, or at least greatly reduce the chances of pregnancy... I can think of several people that the world would be better off if their father had pulled out... Even "aborted" later if he couldn't pull out in time...

I don't personally believe that God sees all human life as "valuable", like we do... As I said in my origional post, He stood idly by while the soldiers tossed babies in the air and harpooned them on their swords and spears... And he still stands idly by as we suck them out in pieces in this day and age... Little has changed, other than on which side if the vagina we allow this to happen...

It is not "God's will" that eve y conception becomes an adult... It is the "free will" of the parents...

Also, I do not believe that anyone who does not "get saved and baptized" will end up in eternal torture for "sins" that they weren't even aware they should not do...

I believe that when death occurs, "mankind" for the most part will go back to where they were BEFORE being born... which is non-existance...

A "few" will be "saved" and go into heaven with God, and a "few" will go into hell and be tortured with satan and the fallen angels in equal purportion to their "crimes" against God's law which they were fully aware they were breaking when they willfully did so...

Babies are "inocent", as in never having an opportunity to choose "sin", thus being "sinless", they get to return unto God... however, never having developed an "awareness", it is hard to speculate what form or portion of their existance becomes "saved"...

Children are "gifts unto the parents from God"... Not gifts unto God from a set of parents... God has no real use for any of us, beyond "Eden"... We are merely allowed to exist due to His "mercy"... IMHO

them to "Jesus Camp".....?

Under your logic Jim Jones, Pol Pot, David Koresh, Hitler, Stalin, George HW Bush and George W Bush should be considered for Sainthood....

... And it's a strange outgrowth from the evengelical belief that EVERYBODY is special, and has a purpose give unto them before they were born... "Destiny" is a false narsissistic concept... And the church if full of nerotic narsissists...

The men you mentioned deserve Hell for what they did... but not "eternal damnation"... How can someone be punished eternally for a crime they only commited for a certain number of years? That would not be of "equal measure", would it? But it would be equally measured to punish them for all that they DID do while on earth... Then upon the completion of their punisment, be caused to not exist... Back to whence-frth they came prior to birth, which is nowhere...

One of the biggest flaws I see in most of the self-important religions it the assumed-right that we are entitled to "exist"... Say's who??

even sadder is the abuse visited upon unwanted children who are born.  That is tragic.  Nature also performs abortions.... a way to keep "collections of cells" that have not formed into a living entity well enough to survive or be what it was supposed to be....

It is estimated that up to 50% of all fertilized eggs die and are lost (aborted) spontaneously, usually before the woman knows she is pregnant. Among known pregnancies, the rate of miscarriage is approximately 10% and usually occurs between the 7th and 12th weeks of pregnancy.

an aborted fetus would not automatically go to heaven.  The fetus [almost infant?] died w/o sin [and presumably n a state of grace], but had NOT been baptized into the Church.  Taht fetus' soul goes to Limbo.  [Which I still imagine to be kinda like that place in the Superman comics, where you are dematerialized but still alive and sent as punishment or just to keep out of Supe's hair.  It was called the ???? Zone].

Anyway, that's what I remember in 2nd grade in the academic year 1963-64.

[Young children, presumably baptized, go to heaven if they die in a state of grace, just like the corrupt adults, it's not an automatic gimme].

S/he also stands idly [by probably actively laughing with sadistic enjoyment] by during :

1. natural disaster
2. war
3. famine/starvation
4. genocide/ethnic clensing/war crimes
5. slavery
6. mass racial discrimination
7. political oppression/torture
8. pandemic an depidemic plague/disease
9. and a lot of other shit but I think i've made my point.

God sure is one laid-back dude.  Exactly what gets him/her to act?

get another crack at life on earth with some other, future conception?

You know, you can think of it as being on "Spritual Standby" if you like.

"This is God speaking.  You life on earth, which was planned to begin on [day/month/year] has been cancelled because your would-be-dad is a jobless thug and your mom is a crack-addicted $10 a pop street whore. In the only sane and responible thing they'll even do in their wretched and ill-begotten lives they had enough sense to go to the abortion clinic and spare you the sufferings of what would have been a painful and terrible life.  You are in indefinite standby, but I've given you a life-upgrade to the upper-middle class.  The next time your soul in placed in a biological conception, your dad will be a physician and your mom, at the very least, a social services administrative professional.  God apologizes for nay inconvemience this abortion has caused you."

"Try to live a just and righteous life when you arrive at your destination and remember to return to God for all your eternity needs."

A common PETA maneuver, which I'm certain you disregard.  Or, I'll tell you what: give us some footage of digestion to really gross us out about any food.  

I don't understand your point.  In other posts you give a much more complex POV.  However, I don't know what information the bloody picture is meant to convey.  Does it just bring attention to it?  

-- Modified on 3/20/2007 9:21:22 PM

complexity of the issue.  If you read Freakonomics - one of the discussion threads is the reason for a decline in crime rates is directly correlated to the availibility of abortion.  That is, kids who were not wanted and would have been born into a life of abuse, poverty and desperation - WERE NOT BORN into the socioeconomic conditions that create criminals.

I know that from a "social engineering" perspective that is a difficult pill to swallow.  But the correlation is there.  Social engineering.... We have the power to alter the outcomes of many "problems" - want another example - If indeed Al Gore is convinced that Global warming is real and if he truly believes that human interaction with the environment is the cause, the solution is simple - LESS PEOPLE!  he should support planned parenthood....  that is the long term solution.  Why?  Name a power source that does not produce some effect on the environment.  Some alter the environment more than others, but they ALL have an affect on the environment.

again.... Great analogy.

-- Modified on 3/21/2007 6:50:27 AM

-- Modified on 3/21/2007 6:52:50 AM

... Only an adult whom has chosen to turn from his wickedness gets baptised... Going under the water represents death to self and re-emergence from the water represents rebirth in Christ's kingdom...

It is a 1000yo lie from the church to claim that babies require water-baptism, and it is a furtherence of that lie to state the sprinkling "holy water" on their heads equates Biblical-baptism...

Babies are still inocent when born, as they are while in the womb... God does not choose where or when babies are born... post-pubecent men choose when, where and to whom babies will be born... "Birth" is a natural-event... in a few rare instances it's a "supernatural-event", but for the most part, it's an issue of natural-law... If you plant seeds, or scatter them wildly, some will take root and grow....

...If three fags want to marry, that's fine by me...
If two fags and a girl want to marry, I'm ok with it...
Or one man marrying several women... one wonam marrying several men... The state has no right to impose sanction against any form of mutual, contractual co-habitation....

Any combination of adult humans that express an intrest in signing a state-underwritten contract of life-long or time-specific commitments to eachother is fine by me...

But WHY do fags feel the need to stick their dicks in the face of the church and force the issue, when the Bible is clear that gay-sex is an un-natural act??

Let the fag-churches marry them, they've figured out how to overlook gay-sex inspite of the Bible...

Government needs to adjust to accept any form of  contracted living arrangement that people want to engage in... then also enforce those contracts after people's "feelings" change...

I forget the name, but some years ago, a pro-life reverend was passing out pictures of what he claimed were pictures of an aborted fetus, but upon further investigation, it was actually a picture of a stillborn baby.

Relationships.

"Fag" is a UK slang term [quite dated} for cigarettes.

Which possibly leades to, in the film "Clerks,"  the Jason Mews character several times refers to male homosexuals as "cocksmokers."

First, in some way rejecting offspring is a symptom of overcrowding with any animal.  Really, one gage for optimism in the future should be the number of abortions performed over a period of time.  It is one indication of how well women think they could provide for a child.  

Second, it's being discovered, if nobody has explicitly pointed it out, that restraining birth rates to control populations creates its own set of problems.  One problem is an older population, and a dearth of people at their physical peak.  Two things correlate with that: the demand for people of peak working age grows stronger, partially to support the aging population.  Therefore, you have out-of-control immigration.  First there's an unmet economic demand for people in that age group; second, you don't have healthy people available to manage the incoming immigrants.  

A second thing negative thing also occurs: the dumbest, least socially aware people are the ones who reproduce the most. This doesn't have too much effect over a few generations, but over ten or twenty, you'll see the effect.

This does not bode well for the long-term effect of birth control.  

All else we could to do control population, though, are totally uncivilized and extremely dangerous environmentally to say the least.  War, massacres, random killings.  Those are no solution at all.

Or, we could let the crash come and let the chips fall where they may and hope that our evolutionary successors crawling from the rubble have something  extra in their brains that we don't.

Agriculture is told of as an advance.  Lately, I've seen it really as an act of desperation.  What really happened was that the hunter-gatherer tribes could no longer support themselves through hunting and gathering.  They did those so successfully that there was nothing to hunt or gather anymore.  That's why they settled down for the arduous drudgery of agriculture-- and you could see the malnurishment preserved in human skeletons when they did this.  

Let's face it; humankind has been able to stave off the population crash better than any other animal ever could have.  We've pulled so many rabbits out of hats over millennia, unfortunately, it can't keep up forever.

... I also think that the videos of hostages being brutally be-headed by their Muslim-captors should be publicly available as well... Then perhaps the reality of WHY we should be fighting these sub-humans would also be more apprent...

It would also be GOOD for the weak-minded liberals to sit through several hours of Saddom's torture tapes, and view the torture/sex and child-torture videos that Uday and Qusay  had in their homes... Maybe THEN some of those weak-minded liberals would have to face the fact that SOME of what this war has accomplished was for good, justice, and humanity....
 Don't get me wrong... I'm not saying that's the reason that Bush went to war, nor is it the reason we've stayed soooo fucking long over there, but killing Saddom and sons was a wonderful unintended side-benefit of this war... Hopefully many more like them will die!

I think often it falls short of conveying the full message, so I prefer to "spice it up" a little, LOL!

How about "Ass-Pirates and Rug-Munchers then, if "fag" is too inaccurate??

Actually "Faggot" is the cigarette term of England, but it draws it's metaphoric-influence from "a bundle of burning stick", and thus is English slang... Later it came to mean only a certain "type" of man who smoked his cigarettes on the end of a long cigarette-holder... This was popularized in the drag/crossdressing community that offten draws influence from old-hollywood and quickly slang-shifted to mean a "queer" person....

"Fag" is a common slang term for a homo these days both here and across the pond...

That's the reality of how we get MEAT! And considering I usually slaughter my own animals to provide my meat-source, I don't think PETA has won much support from me or the millions of people like me... It's a natural function of harvesting meat that goes back at least 10,000 years... I think PETA is nuts!

Personally, I won't eat meat that has not been properly bled-out... So I don't eat mass-possessed meats... Chicken is among the worst! When a freerange-bird is decapitated and allowed to flop headlessly until the blood has all been pumped out of the carcass, it tastes MUCH better than the mass-prossessed fowl that still has blood in the veins and inner-tissue, YUCK!

But, for the sake of argument, let's say that it is a picture of a still-born baby... How would the "picture" change the agreement? an aborted baby would look roughly the same, wouldn't it?

"...rejecting offspring is a symptom of overcrowding....  ...how well women think they could provide for a child."  Yes, AND NO.  The recombinatorial events that have to occur for a "normal" birth are very delicately balanced. Even in a healthy population, for which all food and needs are met, there are spontaneous abortions... independent of environmental influences.  It is nature's failsafe program.

"if nobody has explicitly pointed it out, that restraining birth rates to control populations creates its own set of problems."  I almost want to go 'yada, yada. yada...'  In many posts, I have pointed out that societal solutions require three criteria to be met to be viable... They must be techically feasible, they must be economically viable and they must be politico-sociological acceptable.  (I am not sure that I have those in the correct order.)  Many of your arguments hinge on the belief that a smaller population would REQUIRE the same level of services that a very large population "likes to have"!  That is just not so.  Problems that would be anticipated for larger populations may not manifest themselves in a small population.
One problem is an older population, Define older....  review your SS Statement - retirment age... specifically.... now 67 and rising.  AND that is a good thing.  Frequently I am mistaken for a 40 something... and I am RAPIDLY approaching 60!  AND I AM NOT ALONE!!!

"Two things correlate with that: the demand for people of peak working age grows stronger, partially to support the aging population.  Therefore, you have out-of-control immigration."

So Z, Which came first, cheap labor, OR, out of control immigration? Seriously, we have the necessary folk to do the immigrants jobs... but at a pay scale that many businesses are unwilling to pay.  We, in the US, are lucky, most parts of the world pay more for the same goods and services that we purchase for a bargain.... ESPECIALLY ALL FORMS OF ENERGY!!!!!!

"...you don't have healthy people available to manage the incoming immigrants...."  Actually it is the other way around... Incoming immigrants are reintroducing MDR Tuberculosis and other diseases once all but eradicated in the US.  

"...the dumbest, least socially aware people are the ones who reproduce the most. This doesn't have too much effect over a few generations, but over ten or twenty, you'll see the effect...."  In all my proposals, I would require a license to have kids.  That is correct - socially planned parenthood.... now how is that coming form a right winger!?  

"This does not bode well for the long-term effect of birth control."  What?!  Depends on education and other factors.

"...totally uncivilized and extremely dangerous environmentally to say the least.  War, massacres, random killings.  Those are no solution at all...."  My plan would eliminate much of these!  Smaller population - less need to agressively compete for limited and finite resources.

"....crash come...  chips fall ... something  extra in their brains that we don't..."  I guess?  but the emotional part of responses even on this board, dictates that rational and reasoned responses to information are NOT THE strong suit of the human condition.

"Agriculture is told of as an advance.  Lately, I've seen it really as an act of desperation.  ....support themselves through hunting and gathering.  They did those so successfully that there was nothing to hunt or gather anymore....  the arduous drudgery of agriculture--" ?? The rise of civilization is the direct result of agriculture.  

"humankind has been able to stave off the population crash better than any other animal ever could have."   Yes and no, many many reductions in human population occured prior to the modern age.  We've not had a good old fashioned calamity in a long time.... We are over due.

I just try yo keep it within a small circle of friends.

...but I try not to be standing in the "center" of the circle when I do it, lol!

Sorry for implying you were "PC"... I should have known better, but the anti-pc speech has kinda become an automated-response when I'm among hetros... They seem to be the only people that care, lol!

Or do you still occasionally engage in self-loathing in the closet?

There is hope for Catholics... It's possible to get free from dogmatic-bondage, I know several people that have been Cathahol-free for over 20 years without a relapse!

Think permanent, lifetime PTS.  Punctuated by the occasssional feeling of violently angry disgruntment, followed with a hopeless and apathetic desire to forget it all.

Those  folks can can really derange a person's mind.

But, there's a bright side to it, kinda [our peers on this Board may disagree]:  whatever ability I have to compose the occassional semi-coherent thought in a  sentence, i happily give those folks a lion's share of the credit.

-- Modified on 3/22/2007 7:14:16 PM

You talk about how a smaller population would have less demands that a larger.  Agreed.  How do you propose to arrive there.

If you license parenting, you will face a rebellion like you've never seen.  That is a fundamental shift in the power of the state, and that will require some brutal force to administer.

cause I think that others will want to chime in... and so they should.

"The recombinatorial events that have to occur for a 'normal' birth are very delicately balanced. Even in a healthy population, for which all food and needs are met, there are spontaneous abortions... independent of environmental influences.  It is nature's failsafe program."

Bizzaro, to be accurate about it: nature doesn't have a "failsafe" program.  An animal might have a fail safe program for its survival, but our separation between natural and artificial is largely. . . artificial.

Your second paragraph about problems not manifesting themselves in smaller populations: I agree, but we have to achieve that smaller population first.  

"'One problem is an older population,' Define older....'" Please, Bizzaro, really?  It's defined in years.  Yes, we are staying healthier longer, but the other facts about it: we're expending resources to do that which make the younger generation unhealthier.  Meanwhile, the fastest growing segment of our population are not in our middle-aged group, they are the 80 and older age bracket.  Now, 80 is still old.  Only a very small number of them can do any work, and 40 percent of them have symptoms of Alzheimer's.    

"'Two things correlate with that: the demand for people of peak working age grows stronger, partially to support the aging population.  Therefore, you have out-of-control immigration.'
So Z, Which came first, cheap labor, OR, out of control immigration? Seriously, we have the necessary folk to do the immigrants jobs... but at a pay scale that many businesses are unwilling to pay."

Economics will tell you that there's a strong correlation with demand and higher price.  However, it will also tell you that there is a such thing as price inflexibility.  The demand for labor, some industries just will not be paid at a higher level.  Now, this is hypothetical.  But it's a fact that some prices are just less sensitive to demand than others.  

As for citizens not doing work at the asking price, that could be for several reasons that support what I wrote.  One thing would be that they are already well into middle age and are capable of commanding wages higher than that.  You won't have them looking for those jobs unless their fortunes take a very severe hit.  The truth is, also, that group probably is not physically able to perform them for long-- despite how long we look.    

The second thing is that they "protect" their children from seeking this work.  They allow their children to get to 22 before they seek a job.  

"'...you don't have healthy people available to manage the incoming immigrants....'  Actually it is the other way around... Incoming immigrants are reintroducing MDR Tuberculosis and other diseases once all but eradicated in the US."

If 100 illegals immigrant come into the US and perform work, and 2 of them have TB (which would be an endemic rate) that's still 98 more healthy, young bodies working.  

"In all my proposals, I would require a license to have kids.  That is correct - socially planned parenthood.... now how is that coming form a right winger!?"  

I've already given my answer to this.  Bizzaro, I can't think of any other thing that would cause more strife than a program like that.  I don't know if you have a clear idea of this.  It would not only be a change in law, it would be a fundamental change in human evolution.  The "losing" class will never, ever take this peacefully.  The other thing is, it could never be administered fairly.  In terms of socio-biology, it would be a transition of humankind to something more like a hive.    

BTW, it's probably something like what we're going to be after the crash anyway.  

"'Agriculture is told of as an advance.  Lately, I've seen it really as an act of desperation.  ....support themselves through hunting and gathering.  They did those so successfully that there was nothing to hunt or gather anymore....  the arduous drudgery of agriculture--' ?? The rise of civilization is the direct result of agriculture."

Yes!!  Agriculture and trade (something Neanderthals never did, apparently). I contend that that was serendipitous, and ironic, a response to a resource-deprived environment lead to civilization.  However, it compensated for a problem, but didn't correct it.  We have been living in a resource deprived environment, but now it's even more resource deprived.        

"Bizzaro, to be accurate about it: nature doesn't have a "failsafe" program.  An animal might have a fail safe program for its survival, but our separation between natural and artificial is largely. . . artificial"

Nature DOES have failsafe programs.  Spontaneous abortions are part of a very complex and as yet not quite understood mechanism to ensure the survival of DNA that is capable of reproducing itself.  In short, there is everything from DNA repair mechanisms, to apoptosis, to whole organ and system shut down mechanisms to ensure that a defective organism is not born....  In short, DNA ensures its own survival...  ya can debate whether or not this is devine plan or random selectivity at work... but work, it does.  It takes on average three genetic defects (not a single genetic defect) to actually cause the unregulated cellular growth we know as cancer.  Failsafe... yea, lots and lots of failsafe mechanisms.......  Pick up a cellular physiology book... it will be chock full of em.