ALEXANDRIA, Va. - Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry on Friday proposed raising the federal minimum wage to $7 an hour by 2007, which he contended would benefit working women more than any other group.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5239288/

There he goes, giving away other people's money..........

And raising the minimum wage will only hurt people cause employers will not hire as many newbies that need lots of training to get up to speed.

Plus, most people make more than minimum wage after 90 days, 60 days and even 30 days as employers want to keep them around if they are working out/fitting in jobwise.

Newbies at Starbucks make 9 bucks an hour and more.  
This minimum wage stuff just shows that John 500million Kerry is out of touch w/working America.

Oh no!!!!! I have to go for it!  Tom Daschle, worth 200 million; Ted Kennedy, worth 50 plus million (I think); Mark Dayton, worth 20 million; Nancy Pelosi, worth???? 20 million?   Do you really think these people elected folks care about working Americans!?!?!?!  
Answer:  THEY DO NOT.  THEY WANT POWER.  THEY ARE PLAYING PEOPLE FOR SAPS.  Let them know that we know the Brooklyn Bridge is not for sale!!!  Ha ha ha ha
P.S. God knows I wish I made more money.

As an employer I haven't paid anyone less than $15 an hour in more than 10 years. But I'm not mfg hamburgs at McD's or any other burger joint either so it wouldn't have any bearing on my line of work.

The more we can give away to Haliburton!!!

I'm not an employer, & fiscal conservatives will disargee, but I think there does need to be minimum wage adjustments from time to time to offset inflation....Furthermore, having certain minimum wage standards can help prevent ruthless business practices..(remember the robber barrons)

I would think for employers, namely small business owners, that the soaring health care costs is the greatest concern....That is something that really needs reformed!....

is the bedrock against which all other wages are compared. $25/hour unions point out the movement of minimum wage in EVERY contract talk. Your employeees compare your wages against other companies.

I think you're wrong that this does not affect you.

The comment about Bush is off topic but where he deviates from strict conservative principles, I disagree with him. In fact GOP support, albiet tepid, is but one of many reasons I do not alaign with GOP.

You should heard me tear into a GOP PAC fund merchant last year....but that's another story..

BK

""but I think there does need to be minimum wage adjustments from time to time to offset inflation""

Minimum wage increases CAUSE the inflation that erodes the dollar. This is the point that most folks miss. The people at the bottom are hurt MOST by artifically increased wages because these costs are paassed along by higher prices.

When a basket of goods goes up, lets say $200 a month for a family of 4, who is hurt worse, a family making $20,000 a year, or a family making $60,000 a year?

Artificial wage adjustments keep the poor, poor.

""I would think for employers, namely small business owners, that the soaring health care costs is the greatest concern....That is something that really needs reformed!...."""

True, still another liberal idea gone wrong.

I am a small business owner, liberal intrusion into my affairs is my single biggest problem and that holds true for most small business owners I know.

BK

I've never started any employee out at such ridiculously low a wage anyways, who the hell can live off minimum wage ?

But I guess you rich fucks making millions as heads of LARGE Corporations think that is stealing away YOUR wealth huh ? geezzzzzz.

""As an owner of a Small Corporation, I DOESN'T MATTER TO ME.""

You don't care who gets hurt as long as you're okay. Don't EVER paint yourself as someone who "cares" about the plight of other people around here again. Least of all, the poor, low waged workers. Why, you don't even think well enough to hire them.

"""But I guess you rich fucks making millions as heads of LARGE Corporations think that is stealing away YOUR wealth huh ? geezzzzzz."""

Presumtious, elitist, libelous, non-sequitor, crapola.

But alas, I think I'll heed your previous advice. You dogded the issue, then jumped into the mud. C-ya.
http://theeroticreview.com/msgBoard/ViewMsgBody.asp?BoardID=39&Page=3&Messageid=4787

"You don't care who gets hurt as long as you're okay."

 WTF ?

Are YOU a business owner ?   Are YOU a minimum wage employee ?

I own a small construction company and pay my guys well because I care about them and want them to be able to do more than just "get by" on minimum wage. Hell even at double that minimum who can really afford much of a life ? But if I were to figure out the hours I put in to my business divided by the pay I take home for myself it would probably make me want to cry. As long as I'm ok ? I live in the same town my employees do, I drive around in a truck (and no it's not a H2), I pay for their health insurance even though my company is too small to be required to do so.

How does that make me a Presumptuous Libelous Elitist ?

Also How did I dodge the issue, the minimum wage doesn't effect how or WHO I hire to work for me, when I have more work coming in than I can handle I hire more people, and at ABOVE minimum wage.

Either you need to explain what point you're trying to get at with your original question or you need medication; you say by increasing the minimum wage (which I'd say OK to) Kerry's spending other peoples money, what POINT are you trying to make, WHO's Money is he spending ? Yours ? Taxpayers ?

Take a look at Japan, there's less separation between worker employee's and company management employee's pay levels, and even ownership, and they are happier and more productive and more competitive than the US firms.

I ask WHAT's YOUR POINT, what are you trying to insinuate with your leading question in the first place ?


PS. I assume you're rich because of the "47" reviews under your belt, I've only got "5". So how am I a self centered elitist rich fuck, please explain that ? If anything I expected a bribite comment from you that I'm a fucking commie socialist or something.


-- Modified on 6/19/2004 4:48:09 PM

Why is Kerry TERRIBLE for small business owners ?

I am one, and I deal with several dozen other small business owners. And frankly NOT ONE that I KNOW of (could be, just I don't know or think so) pays any of their employees at minimum wage. They, and I, all pay better than minimum wage, I would think most small business's do to get any decent employee to come work for them. The ones I'd think would be afraid of an increase to the minimum wage would be the HUGH corporations that pay the majority of their employees minimum wage, I'm thinking Wal-Mart may not like the Idea.

Maybe my thinking is flawed here, and you can help me figure out what I've got so wrong by your way of thinking BILLKILE.

time and think about it and re-phrase your question. Otherwise, I have neither the time nor temperment to talk you to.

Sorry IF it came across that way.

My statement basically was to mean, you'd think Big Corporation owners could maybe keep from giving themselves another million dollar raise and maybe spread it out to the employees working for them. But I know that doesn't happen in the "real" world, they just pass the buck on to the consumer.

So what's the ANSWER, at some point and it's getting MORE and MORE like this in MY OPINION, we'll have the RICH WEALTHY CLASS and EVERYBODY ELSE (at or around a poverty level by Govt. standards) the hard working Middle Class is really shrinking, and it's being played the fool by BOOTH Democrats and Republicans, so WHAT'S THE ANSWER ?

of the required skillset to perform a complex job.  The minimum wage has nothing to do with the wage rates of highly skilled people, the number of such people in a given location drives what they are offered for compensation.
    The minimum wage plays little or no role in union contracts, those contracts are driven by broader factors such as the cost of living, the type of union (for example, police or firefighters), and again, the supply of workers of the required skills in a location or region.
    The minimum wage does come into play for low skill or semi-skilled individuals.

-- Modified on 6/19/2004 7:18:20 PM

to you except insofar as a portion of it answers part of your present question. And that is the issue of demagaugery.

Demagaugery is the tool career politicians use to get people to side WITH THEM without thinking. NOthing but bad policy ensues from that and government today is rife with bad policy. Neo-con's, "you're either with us, or your  a terrorist" is demagaugery you may be able to relate to.

Your reply to me was a typical knee-jerk reaction when this issue is raised. It is presumptiously assumed I am rich and fucking my help because no one but that type of person would think the way I do.

Nothing could be farther from the truth. I come from the streets. I know more about being poor than most will ever know. I have employed low income people for more than 15 years and worked with them for over 30. My business is in a low income neigborhood so my customers are low income.

Just so you know where I'll be coming from. The rest I'll address when I have time to properly answer your question.

BK

-- Modified on 6/19/2004 7:12:31 PM

You have some good points but you seem to have mostly jumped the rail in response to the Hailthebaloneysandwich's post.  I really do not know what your circumstance is, you indicated that you are a small business owner, which could mean anything from you and your family run the shop to you employing several hundred or even several thousand people.
    The fact that HTBS has his company incorporated does not mean that he is rich.  Incorporation is often a good route to take when setting up a business for several reasons that have nothing to do with how much a person makes or expects to make from the business.
    The exchange between you and HTBS is good given that both of you are business owners and understand what it is like to meet a payroll, even if it is only yourself that has to be paid at the end of a workweek.

when this started. I asked a question and he replied with a presumtious "you rich fuck" response and that his business was doing okay. I simply replied that it must be him that is the "richfuck" because I'm just gettin by..

I get ahead by working hard and doing more, not waiting around for government kickdowns.

Being an employer who employs at minimum wages, I see how it works. When the minumum gets raised do you think workers above that are okay to sit still at present wages? No. they want at leat the same % as the minimum guys, so you bump them. You have now raised their wage expectations and in doing so, raised wage expectations at that skillset.

When those at the skillset just above that compare their wages to the wages just below them, that sets off another round of increased wage expectations. This is the ripple effect of artificial wage manipulation.

Anyone who does'nt think this effects them, does'nt understand what I just said, or, they just don't agree. I which case, feel free to tell me how your experience shows me to be wrong.

BILLKILE, sounds like we might be in similar boats.

Look, I already said I'm sorry for the "rich fuck" comment and that it wasn't exactly meant towards YOU. More venting I guess on my part because my business has been a struggle lately too, in fact this last 2 months I couldn't pay myself a paycheck and I've been trying to collect un-employment that I've paid into for the last 24 years, and I'm getting nothing but red tape Bull Shit run around.

Guess I just didn't know what your post was really asking at first, I think I've answered you though . . .

Anyways look I'm FAR from rich myself, and I never said my business was doing OK, I said a hike in the minimum wage didn't matter to me, because in my business, construction; it's rare to pay someone ANYONE minimum wage. Hell guys on the street corners (which I don't hire) even want at least $10 an hour cash under the table. I know because some of my competition uses them. But I've tried to remain above that and treat my guys better for the last 18 years I've been in charge of this company. It just keeps getting more difficult to do that every day.

I hope things pick up for BOTH of us business wise, good luck to you BILLKILE, and hope there's no hard feelings.

on my one business than I was 6 years ago. My costs keep rising but no one mandates my customers must SPEND more. I do consulting work in my industry and broker deals when they come my way. Otherwise I'd be sunk.

I have a buddy I've known since high school. Damn good tradesman, small roofing business. It's all he's ever done. Between wages, W/C, health care, and liability insurance, and now construction material, he has had to fold his tent.

Who really comes out sweet on the minimum wage issue is unions and government tax fiends. Unions because their people get inflation hikes which protect them from the inflation this causes and they can argue for more not even based on merit. Government tax fiends because as wages overall increase, tax revenues increase as well, funding more bullshit spending.

Look who's backing Kerry, lawyers, doctors, unions. That is the piper he will dance to if elected. I pray for a conservative worth a shit to come along and straighten this mess out. We ain't got one now.

BK

People who have desirable skills get paid what the market will bear.  If there is an abundance of people with their skillsets, they get paid less, if there is a shortage, they get paid whatever it takes to get their skills to work, within reason.  The minimum wage never enters into the equation.

-- Modified on 6/19/2004 8:26:54 PM

But what would you have instead? NO minimum wage levels ?
This is what brought us such things as child labor, and sweatshops. I'm not a Union guy, actually think they do more harm than good, but there needs to be some middle ground.

I don't pretend to have an answer for you, but sometimes you got to put yourself in your employees shoes, and ask can I "get by" on what the boss is paying me ?

Even if it goes up to $7 an hour at a 40 hour work week that’s $280 a week, $1,120 a month, about $13,400 a year GROSS before taking out Fed & State tax, SDI, FUTA, SUTA, Medicare, etc. you know what I mean BILLKILE, it's nuts.

By the time your worker gets his take home pay he's hovering around the poverty level, by US Census Bureau standards.

And I'm NOT BLAMING or pointing a finger at you in any way BILLKILE I know how difficult it is to be a small company employer, but when your employees aren't rich, the owners aren't rich (YOU or I), then something is way fucking wrong and needs to be fixed. I wish I had the answer, no one deserves to live at a poverty level if they are willing to put in a hard days work, that's just fucking insane when healthy num-nuts are out there taking advantage of government aid and sitting on their damn ass.

I would also argue that to the extent that the cost of living is increased by what's going on below on the economic/employment ladder, even wage expectations of highly skilled people are expanded. There may come a point in some fields where they are immune form what goes on in the general economy but I can't think of one.

At some point, those skills come into competetion from international forces but still are related to global wage expectations...?

I've been close to were your friend is. I'm making less now too. And also had a BS $15 million lawsuit against me a couple years back, by an employee of a sub-contractor I hired. It's damn near impossible to make an honest buck anymore, but what doesn't kill you only makes you stronger and I'll keep plugging away.

Anyone know what the Lotto is up to this week ? LOL

or maybe some leprechaun friend will give me a loan
(inside joke, but made ME laugh)

wages help the poor, it does'nt, otherwise we'd have no more poor. One of these days find yourself a chart of the purchasing power of the US$ from 1800 till now. (BLS should have it)It is truly staggering to see. Once the dollar decoupled from gold, it's been "Katie Bar the door".

We live in an economy in which central bankers can print money anytime they feel like it. Governments force businesses to increase cost so they can buy votes..

A dollar is worth .08 as measured from 1800. 8 fuckin cents.

Only when we get back to what's real can this stabalize. IOW, you get a raise because you have increased your skills or improved productivity.

The answer to poverty is education and hard work. Nothing else has economic value and is therefore inflationary.

I haven't seen a job advertised for less than $7 in ages.  Rather than "giving" anything away (and I suppose people still have to work for it?) it seems to me that it rubberstamps the going rates.

/Zin

my neighborhood so they just walk in and ask for a job.

What's being given away is the difference between what is being paid now and what will be paid if the wage is increased. But of course, I'll raise my prices hoping the extra money offsets the extra Keery wants to force me to pay. Other businesses will follow suit, even some who can't justify it.

So everyone will pay more for goods which will eat up the extra they just got.

I'm telling ya, it's a clusterfuck.

People will have it to spend.  I may be paying more money, but raising the minimum wage has an upward effect on my wages, too.
Maybe a hump of inflation, no more.  Sounds rather painless to me overall.

Isn't this supposed to "trickle down" anyway?  Was the Gipper just full of shit?  Or have employers just fixed the leak?

I think the only people who would ask for a job that pays less than $7 are either desperate or don't know better.  I wouldn't set my alarm for it.  That's a homeless wage.

/Zin

how many servers, bartenders, barbacks and busboys there are running around.  These are typically minimum wage earners.  They DO NOT work at these places so they can make $22.00 for their 4 hour shift.  They work there so they can make $25-30+/hr in gratuity during their shift.  In these places, they are the only ones making minimum.  The kitchen staff will be running anywhere from $6-10/hr (dishwashing) to $8-15/hr (cooking).  This depends on what part of the country you live.  

When the Federal Minimum Wage (without exemptions, like the left want) goes up, the whole scale will go up.  You will then have the opportunity to pay at least 20% more for everything purchased in that property, or you will find a reduction of services.  Carried through other industry, an American car will go from $28,000 to $33,000, a bottle of pop, a couch, gallon of milk or Big Mac?  All up because companies need to make a profit and work within their margins.  

It will further drive non-service industry out of the country and who knows how farther it will drive up health care costs.

I believe that those that are making minimum wage as their only source of income may actually be hurt by this.  I further believe that in damn near every part of the country, if you can't find a job that pays better than minimum wage, something is wrong with you.  Maybe it is something beyond your control, maybe not.

horse properly to the rail before you enter the saloon.

When farmers had to borrow for the planting season, the banks would run out of gold, then the country would run out.  They'd have to import the supply from England, which was 12 days away by ship.  Meanwhile, there would be panics and bank collapses everywhere.  Look at the panics of the 19th and early 20th century to confirm this.  The reason we are off the gold standard is that it was unworkable in an industrial economy, finally. In the 1870s when the Grant administration tried to "stabilize" the economy by taking greenbacks, issued during the civil war, out of circulation, the result was a terrible period of deflation.

Purchasing power?  How does one compare purchasing power between 1800 and now?  This is not the same country.  An American in 1800 did not have the option to buy a computer, a car, a television, or the necessity to run utilities to his house.  He did not need the extra currency to do this.  Plus an American today would not be faced with maintaining a horse, or in fact, his slaves.  

Why gold in the first place?  I'll note it's damn heavy, hard to transport, and as such, expensive to do so.  The only reason human beings chose this to begin with was its supposed magical powers.  I've heard the argument that "gold holds its value."  Right, as an electronic component, as a chemical catalyst.  Any value here is based on the current prices of those markets, which would vary a lot.  Perhaps as a luxury item?  Which would mean that the economy would be based on our emotional attachment to the beauty of it-- which can now be imitated very cheaply.  That's not a very edifying thought.  I think you should bury your gold standard in the backyard.

We could base it on salt, I think.  That holds it's value.

We don't just "turn on the printing presses."  It's true that it's an option.  But it hasn't been done here.  Besides, most money now is "electronic," a concept not even on the horizon in the 1800s.
 
/Zin

How is it off topic? You brought the topic up.

Once again, the minimum wage doesn't affect me or my business. Me and my employees don't care for fast food, otherwise known as the lowest paying manufacturing jobs in the country. We also aren't wealthy enough to hire nannies or landscape companies that use shady hiring practices.

A fair wage for a fair days work.

One last thing, I don't like unions either. There are unions that pay the workers barely above minimum wage. Work stoppages and paying dues to ensure the worst workers keep their jobs. A union shop typically takes twice the workforce to get the job done, "It's not my job man"

Yes, you would be paying more, but some inflation is good for the middle and lower classes, not so for the upper-class.  

To prevent driving non-service industries out, couple it with a law that we will only trade with countries that apply our federal labor laws-- something that should have been done long ago.  

And the example you give at Hooters, you point out that not nearly all of the staff would be affected.  It wouldn't add up to a 20 percent rise.  You're assuming also that the proposal would pass without exemptions, something that won't happen.  I don't care which "leftie" you asked about this.  No matter what is first proposed for the law, it won't happen.

/Zin