Wnhy does everybody think Kerry is such a traitor on the Vietnam thing?  Wasn't the Swift boat gig his SECOND TOUR?  I thought he served with a task force group in the Tonkin Gulf for a whole year before he -reupped to go into the boats?

Or are all naval officers weanies for not going mano a mano in the jungle?

We NEVER discuss this, but it is important.  If he had simply served that first year and bailed as he could have, would the reactionaries have less to whinge about?

I am really eager to hear about this.  Of course I think it is in his favour, but if it makes another case agin him to the Zieg Heilers, I'd love to hear it.

Yes, it was his second tour. He volunteered for Swift Boat duty knowing that the death rate was MUCH higher. But he VOLUNTEERED.

His first tour was cut short due to having to train for Swift Boat command. I believe his actual time in Nam for both tours was approx. 8 to 9 months. The Tonkin was no cake walk either.

First tour was mainly off the coast of California, in the last month it went to Perth via the Tonkin Gulf.  No combat pay.  I really don't give a fuck if a guy served in Vietnam or not, I didn't make it the centerpiece of Kerry's campaign, he did, and for good reason, he is an empty suit with  nothing else to promote.

It is not his 4 months that pisses me off, although I think a band-aid PH could only be self commended, it is his accusations of widespread war atrocities and crimes that is bullshit!

He parroted what he had coached out of supposed Vietnam Vets at the Winter Soldier Meeting.  Huge problem, almost all of them were never in Vietnam!  Dozens of them had never been in the military!   Their testimony was "Seared, Seared" in the psyches of the American people, and Kerry knew/now knows they were lies!

He was a huge part of the Vietnam Veterans treatment after the war.  And I think you're old enough to remember how we were treated.

Whether he knew it at the time I don't know, but he knew it within one month of this Senate Testimony before the Fullbright Committee and he NEVER apologized for his lies!  Now he want to run on his War record?  Fuck him!

His second trip to Vietnam was capped by his tour of the Ho Chi Mihn War Museum where his picture is hanging as a war hero for the NVA, as being instrumental in turning the American people against the war effort.

I do hate/loathe him, consider him a traitor, (so did John McCain until recently, read his autobiography) and so do most of the 500,000 plus Vietnam Vets who are currently helping to fund the Swifties efforts to expose him for the fraud he is!

Your constant Nazi remarks continue to marginalize your stance.  Is the the best you can do?  What about baby killers, etc. etc.?

And what the fuck does "whinge" mean?

Click on link below for info on Kerry's Service.
I'll add other links below, later, as I find them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_F._Kerry#Military_service_.281966-1970.29

http://www.johnkerry.com/about/john_kerry/service.html

http://www.johnkerry.com/about/john_kerry/military_records.html

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-- Modified on 9/23/2004 8:20:46 PM

Let's not forget that during the war he went to Paris to negotiate with the N. Vietmanese.... I'm sorry that's not his job.  You have to read & understand the constitution to realize who's role that is, but a little thing like that hasn't stoped him beofore.

Oh while we are at it, his stance right now on Iraq stating that if he were to become president he would withdraw all or most of the troops shortly after he takes office quite simply is an act of a traitor since it ends up costing the US lives.   And just to explain that - he is giving aid & comfort to the enemy because if they hold on for just a few months & give us a paper cut (simular I suppose to his purple heart war wounds), then our foes over there will figure that what they did in Spain, they can do here.

Pretty simple to me.

He made it so by his actions after he got back from Vietnam.  He met with the North Vietnamese in Paris  while still a naval officer (violation of the UCMJ, criticised the  U.S. military mission in Vietnam while U.S. forces were still fighting in Vietnam (that gave aid and comfort to the enemy while it lowered the morale of our military and our civilian population and lessened our will to win.)

Just today, he insulted the Iraqi Prime Minister.  Kerry accused him of lieing about how good things are going in Iraq.  In the past, Kerry has insulted the countries that are our allies because they are allied with George Bush.

Kerry does not have critical thinking skills.

Kerry is indecisive.

Kerry thinks he can get away with things by double talking.  

I believe the U.S. people are to smart for Kerry and they will not vote for him.

1) Whinge- to whine in english english

I do remember the war.  Grew up within a 1000 yards of Presidio in SF.  My father and Uncle and GF were all veterans, as were most of my father's co-workers.  Always repected that apsect of a life lived.

Sounds to me like Kerry went into the service and participated in a war that was CLEARLY A BAD IDEA and NOT IN AMERICA's REAL INTERESTS.  Since he would have taken liberty with a lot of guys who were doing bad stuff(My father was crushed when he heard of My Lai) I think he had plenty of opportunity to learn about the excesses (many are documented-many not) and form an opinion (borne out by historical events) that this war was wrong- and prosecuted poorly.

The American people turned against the war A) because it was a bad idea B) because they were so clearly being lied to about its prosecution and success C) Because they were really more concerned with more important things to be done at home, like reducing poverty and racism and D) Because our allies the ARVN were so clearly not deserving of our support.

Thses facts do not take anything away from the honest hard labour of the many thousands of good men who really thought they were doing a good thing.  But they were being lied to and their efforts essentially wasted on a Cold War Exercise.

But to take that out on a guy who pointed out that the MacNamara had no clothes on?  Seems a little weird.  I might think he deserves a little credit for helping us end a side show drain on our resources.  The real culprits are those morons who put you in harm's way for a chess game with Russia instead of a real threat to our nation.

Uh, people- can we remember that the Viet Nam experience for the US WAS NOT A WAR!  Because of this technical fact, a now recognized illegal attempt to bypass CONGRESS' sole right to make war, those rules cannot be applied.  

And can you try to remember that we owe a debt of gratitude to the people who got us to disengage from our rather silly attempt to become involved in a civil war?  A civil war that we furthered by never allowing the agreed on election (we knew Ho would win, so we refused to allow it- a breach of agreement on our part)to take place?

Compared to the vietnamese, for whom it was a real war of liberation, and a continuation of their struggle with the FRench, we HAD NO will to win.  We bitch and moan about the less than 50 thousand casualties we suffered, they are proud of the MILLION they lost!  Given that they posed NO COHERANT THREAT to us, we were NEVER going to match their intensity.

In the meantime, they seem to have gotten over it and we are still whinging about MIAs!  As if they would want to keep caring about a 30 year old issue.  Now we can win with our dollars what we could never do with our guns.

If that dirty rotten rat Lyndon Banes Johnson hadn't been president.  Every time they fought a conventional battle, we gave them a whuppin.  Tet Offensive, a whuppin, Kae Sahn, a whuppin, bombing the north, a whuppin.  We coulda invaded the north at any time in the 60's and they woulda collapsed. And China wouldn't done nothing neither cause they were to busy having their schizo cultural revolution and straving to death.  Oh yeah, then there's Jane Fonda who goes over there and probably had sex w/Ho Chi Minh. And probably didn't charge him anything neither.

might get me the boot, but anyone who would address the issue of MIAs in Vietnam OR ANY OTHER CAMPAIGN, WAR OR MILITARY ACTION in the context of "whining" should have their ass kicked, hard and often.  Shame on you.

What?  A lot of people use those terms.  In the immediate aftermath, there is little doubt that those concerns had some foundation.  But 30 YEARS ON?  Moves into whining stage

I guess you just can't seem to stop watching "Uncommon Valour" one more time! (PS: I loved it too)

Modern war results in a lot of missing people.  Bodies get totally blown up, people get sniped while crapping off in the woods, errors in paperwork happen.  The jungle and the diluted nature of a insurgent war lead to even more potential distance from bases.

War is about people dying.  Not about keeping track of everyone. I only use the term correctly in the perspective of a country that lost over a million KIA/MIA while we are still making a fuss about less than 100 guys!

Should we continue to look for crash sites and our people? Of course- it is part of our culture of respect for our dead.  Should we hold the Vietnamese govt hostage while we do? Clearly a huge waste of time.  This is now beyond the political- its just plain folks stage.

But if you still think there are guys being held in cages?  I think you need professional help!

None too likely, not without a major war.  Mao would have licked his chops to have a real enemy to fight on his borders.  Why do you think he had to do the completely self defeating Cultural Rev?  In part because he was a mad, sick M-F, but in part to keep the initiative of the revolution and not get side tracked into the kind of system they have now- a capitalist style of Communist authoritarianism.  

I dunno- ever hear of Chosin Reservoir?

It's generally not a good idea to get yourself on the colonial side of the "throwing off the colonial yoke" fight.  Even if your intentions are pure.  Only the Brits have really ever managed it right and then not often.

A better idea would have been to side with Ho from the get-go as some of our OSS types wanted to, and subvert his revolutionary movement from within with our oodles of cash.  But making nice with anyone at all pink let alone Red was impossible thanks to your buddy, our version of Malenkov (did I get that right? I always mix up the Stalinist idealogues), Tail gunner Joe!

a lot of people shoot themselves too, maybe you should give it a try since you appear to follow the crowd.  With your level of sensitivity, why don't you go to the next MIA rally and hop on stage and tell everyone to quit "whining".  Dismiss them like the children they are acting like by not wanting to go to bed or eat their peas..  Whining..  I would love to see the coverage of their reaction and your subsequent ass-kicking.  BTW, if you are still around on 9/11/2031, why don't you visit a FDNY station and tell them to quit whining when they are having a moment of silence.  After all, 30 years later they should be over it, right??