I see it as the middle-class losing, with the upper-class winning at their expense. And, with both the middle and the upper class consisting of liberals and conservatives. The real question is, how long can this country continue to be number one in the world, at the expensive of having our middle-class continuing to lose to the upper-class, and having it's numbers diminish.

...it's called The Fourth Turning. What is happening now is cyclical. The last time we were in this period, it was right after the Great Depression, which gave us the New Deal. That is what the wealthy have in store for them in the next 25 years. Massive wealth redistribution creating a better society.

The reality is that the wealthy used to have it better off then they do today. When you factor in inflation, Carnegie had something in the magnitude of 300 billion. The Rothschild family had by some estimates what today would be a net worth as high as a trillion. Today, the richest guy in the world (the last I looked it up) was Bill Gates at 50-some billion. Surprise, surprise, the world didn't end.

As to your points, you're plainly wrong. Corporate taxes used to be higher (some 50% during the 50's and 60's), and yet Americans had more disposable income.

Top marginal income taxes are already at a near all time low, and the wealthy are already offshoring their wealth, along with American jobs. If that was the gun they were holding against our heads, then you're a little late Snow, they pulled that trigger some 15 years ago. If they want to leave, then as far as I'm concerned, good riddens to bad rubbish. They can say goodbye to their protection rachet and compete in the real world, where executives are sometimes set on fire.

The reality is that the existence of a middle class has been a very rare thing in all of human history. 99% of all human history has been the wealthy hoarding their power and greed and enslaving everyone else. That was the relationship between King and Serf, between the plantation owner and the slave, between the dictator and his people, and it's the relationship between the worker and the boss.

See, the bitter pill for you to swallow here Snow, is that the human race is slowly, but surely civilizing itself. And that pace is not slowing down, but speeding up. And no nation that is civilized tolerates vast levels of inequality.

Hundreds of years ago, kings and emperiors ruled over everyone. Today, such people are left to gamble on Wall Street in a vain hope of gaining a fraction of the power royalty once had. And in that process, that wealth was transferred from a single individual to an entire class of people. This redistribution of wealth, and indeed of power, created the strongest economy the world had ever seen.

Wealthy people don't like this. We have tools like democracy that prevent them from becoming kings, and so they go elsewhere where there is no democracy, so they can more easily continue their plunder. But the sad fact of the matter is that now democracy has spread far and wide to every continent on earth, and the last hold outs are undergoing a democratic revolution as we speak.

You see, the real bitch here Snow, is that the wealthy, and their commissars like yourself are running out of room to hide. And what all these revolts indicate is that the time is coming real soon to pay the piper.

It's a TER app!  But seriously, all you guys need to get your panties out of a wad.  This board ain't life or death, it's a fuckin' whoremongers board.  And you're actually making it boring.  Nap  time!  *snore*

I defintely get this from reading your op.

See, IF you have so much $, WHY are you so continually defensive about liberal philosophies on a hooker/john discussion board ? Why do you feel so "threatened" ? Shouldn't your abundant bucks make you feel more secure ? Could it be that you're lying about your "wealth" ? Hell, self-aggrandizement rules on the net; every guy on the web is 6' tall & over & is "rich"-------LMAO !

There are some guys here ( GaG & St Croix for instance ) who I DO believe have the big $; however, Snow ( or should I say Baron Munchausen ) I don't believe you for a second.

Lastly, I believe you meant "TO vote"; better get some of that "education" you're advocating for others------








-- Modified on 3/7/2011 5:57:08 AM

I was reading over the board, watching some talking heads debate on a news show and reading the latest news online about the Wisonsin protests, Wall street, Corporate taxes and all the other things we debate on this board....

As I pondered it, I really thought to myself, while I enjoy the political sparring, does it really matter??

Let's be honest. Let's say the left got everything they wanted!! They still lose....

Raise Corporate taxes, the capitalist raise the price of goods and pass it on to the middle class...

Pass Obama Care. The middle class is limited to government healthcare when the private companies can no longer afford to stay in business, the capitalists can afford to go anywhere and pay for the best healthcare.

Raise personal income taxes, the wealthy simply move their wealth offshore and invest in areas across the globe that are more favorable to them. Foreign jobs are created, American jobs are lost.

Pass collective bargaining, wages for Unions will stay artificially high, these payroll expenses are built into the products selling price, and the middle class wind up supporting the higher wages, not the company.

No matter what the left comes up with, no matter what they try, they will lose every time.

In the end, as I listen to the tones of debates and liberal posts, I do understand where all the hostility comes from. Because deep down, they know this. Before they have tried to state their first position, slung their first insult, they know, deep down, they have already lost.

And to top it off, while the debate rages on, those in the upper income brackets continue to live quite well. Another fact which greatly annoys liberals.

Bottom line to my liberal colleagues on the board. While I will continue our political sparring matches in the future, in the end, it does not matter. You have lost the debate before you ever touched the keyboard.

Sorry...

-- Modified on 3/6/2011 8:57:45 PM

-- Modified on 3/6/2011 8:58:45 PM

-- Modified on 3/6/2011 8:59:47 PM

& according to your posts, an angry, bitter & addicted wanker as well. Sounds like ANOTHER example of "Freudian projection".

Like your comrade Snow, IF you have the big $, & think this board is a "lark" for you,why are so angry, devote so much time here & feel "threatened" by liberals & unions ?

-- Modified on 3/7/2011 9:16:35 AM

You might wanna take your entreaties to the TS board.

You still haven't answered my q : if you're the "well-heeled" rightie you claim to be, why aren't you working or taking lavish vacations ?

Why even bother to reply to board liberals who you feel aren't even worthy of your contempt ? Don't you have better things to do with your time ?

From the classic play " Cat on a Hot Tin Roof" I paraphrase : "there's the stink of mendacity around here"-----





-- Modified on 3/7/2011 6:12:55 AM

" Freudian projection" again, dude.

Again, folks like GaG & St Croix, I believe have the big $; I don't believe you for a second.

Tell ya what---get a credible source to corroborate your "wealth & success"--otherwise, when I read your posts, my "bullshit meter" is on high-----

-- Modified on 3/7/2011 5:58:57 AM

& Please send us a pic of that event so we'll be able to verify it !

Again, ducking the issue-----"ahem"---are some folks into lying self-aggrandizement on this board ?! & you KNOW who you are--------Hell, despite my kidding of him, I DO believe Marikod is an attorney--his posts indicate that---LOL !

As for the others, it's "Baron Munchausen" time------------

because you're a lying, hypocritical fraud.

Now, some will ask this of me : why the so-called "vicious" ad hominem attacks ? Simple : posts by certain people ( I.E. Snow & Fair_Use ) lack "credibility" so I will call their "bona
fides" into question.

In particular, "Fair_Use" comes across as someone who is particularly angry, bitter & possibly ill.

-- Modified on 3/7/2011 8:23:00 AM

Snow & F_U need to get some form of "gainful employment"------

Of course, none is forthcoming !

As TER "poet laureate" put you down there with Quad; Btw,since you have so much time to post obsessive dittys about, me, do you have a job ?---------

-- Modified on 3/7/2011 9:48:30 AM

miniature golf, that is-----LOL !

I think that if the upper class is successful, money flows through the economy and more people benefit.

They start more companies and create more jobs. They make more investments in capital expenditures for business, good sold goes up which helps the middle class.

An example I would point to is the 10% luxury tax that was passed in 1990 on new yachts over 100K.
Yacht sales plummeted. Were the rich hurt, NO, they just quit buying yachts. Who got killed by it were all the skilled craftsmen who lost their jobs because there was no work. The law was repealed, the industry rebounded.

I do not take an "us or them" philosophy, and I believe that type of belief will only lead to conflict and as I stated in my first post, the middle class getting hurt.

well thought out...

A few flaws in your stance I would point out you missed...

1) There are more wealthy people today in the United States than ever before in human history. I do attribute this to the fact that our system has matured and given more people the chance to succeed. Instead of the few "super wealthy", we now have more people who are millionaires. This is beacuse many huge monopolies must now compete more for business. The small business owner has come into their own.

2) You make the mistake of trying to use a strictly US economy for your basis of argument. You talk about the economy from back in the Great Depression. Problem is, we are a global economy now. There is no turning back the clock no matter how much many on the left would like to try. The wealthy use to be very limited in their mobility, especially back to the days you speak of, but not anymore. It is in fact not too difficult of a task for them to move assets and jobs elsewhere. Isn't jobs moving overseas one of the main Union complaints? I think that makes my point.

3) Personal income may have been much more available because the personal income taxes on the wealthy were much lower, did you ever consider that? Also in the 50's and 60's, the American market did not have to compete with foreign manufacturers.

4) You say the redistribution of wealth has created the strongest economy in the world, but wasn't our economy founded back in the late 1800s and early 1900s, those periods you descibe as so evil? We reached our peak in the 50s and 60s right after the war, but as Corporate Taxes rose and Personal Income Taxes rose, we have watch out economy decline over the last 50 years. We are now in danger of losing out #1 status as the world's top economy as a direct result of the redistribution of wealth policies you cite. It is no coincidence the push of these policies in the 60s and 70s coincides with what was the beginning of our economic decline.

5) It is not inequality that civilized nations don't tolerate, it is when people are not even given a chance to complete. There was a time when you were born privaledged ot poor, and could never change your status. NOT SO TODAY!! As I pointed out, there are more millionaires today than ever before. We have a system where individuals can change their status through hard work and self-improvment and get two vote in elections every two years. Bottom line is, people who cry about being in the middle class are out of excuses. Time to BUCK UP OR SHUT UP.

-- Modified on 3/7/2011 4:28:13 AM

-- Modified on 3/7/2011 5:02:07 AM

"There are more wealthy people today in the United States than ever before in human history."

This is true. But if the Rothschilds would have to settle for what is wealthy today, they'd blow their heads off. This reality is that we have a system that has created a redistribution of wealth from the few to the many.

"Problem is, we are a global economy now. There is no turning back the clock no matter how much many on the left would like to try."

We can't turn back the clock, but we certainly can get rid of free trade.

"The wealthy use to be very limited in their mobility, especially back to the days you speak of, but not anymore."

And soon, it won't matter where they go. They can move jobs wherever they like, but it doesn't matter of they offshore to the moon if we get rid of free trade.

"You say the redistribution of wealth has created the strongest economy in the world, but wasn't our economy founded back in the late 1800s and early 1900s, those periods you descibe as so evil?"

I'd say that modern capitalism was born with the industrial revolution. It's no secret that it was a horrible time for the vast majority of the US populace. It was even worse in Western Europe.

"We reached our peak in the 50s and 60s right after the war, but as Corporate Taxes rose and Personal Income Taxes rose, we have watch out economy decline over the last 50 years."

I'm going to have to show you another one of those graphs, aren't I Snow?

http://i53.tinypic.com/2va13zs.jpg

"We are now in danger of losing out #1 status as the world's top economy as a direct result of the redistribution of wealth policies you cite."

Looky at graphy.

"It is no coincidence the push of these policies in the 60s and 70s coincides with what was the beginning of our economic decline."

The 60's were a fabu time for the USA. We had the highest average GDP rates of any other decade of the 20th century. The 70's were fairly good too, but paying off the Vietnam War, and two oil embargos didn't help anything. The real decline started in the 1980's.

"It is not inequality that civilized nations don't tolerate, it is when people are not even given a chance to complete. There was a time when you were born privaledged ot poor, and could never change your status. NOT SO TODAY!!"

I assume you mean compete. If free market competition created greater equality, then I'm sure it would be embraced. So far, it hasn't been. I would also note that class mobility is the lowest in the United States then in any other industrialized nation on earth.  

"We have a system where individuals can change their status through hard work and self-improvment"

I have heard this propaganda my whole life, and I gotta tell ya, I keep wondering why coal miners aren't millionaires. We have a CAPITAList economy, not a LABORist economy. The reality is that in this economy capital is FAR more efficient in creating wealth than labor could ever hope to. The reality is that this line is nothing more than bullshit spewed by the wealthy to create obedient workers. And workers are already figuring this out.

"Bottom line is, people who cry about being in the middle class are out of excuses. Time to BUCK UP OR SHUT UP."

Let's see, Wall Street just lost this country 20% of it's wealth, and you say the middle class are out of excuses. I agree that somebody is out of excuses, but it ain't the middle class. But they are bucking up....seen Madison lately?

One thing I have noticed about non-Liberals, whether they are conservatives, libertarians, independents, etc is they tend to see all of this kind of "discussion" for what it is: masturbation.  Liberals on the other hand, take it very seriously as if they are somehow making a difference.  True, that makes the masturbation more satisfying for the rest of us and therefore more addictive.  But it also explains why a person's liberalism tends to wane over time.  I think those who grow old with their liberal views, or those that become politicians with these liberal views as pros, know the score but have settled into something that is comfortable and/or profitable, albeit a bit masochistic.  Again, more to stoke to for everybody else.  So lets not discourage them from the lap dance of politics.  Tuck 'em a buck every once in while and cop a feel when you can.  Many of them are not going to change, not should they.  Love your liberals.  They are the bottom feeders in this aquarium of life, and by bottom feeders,  I like to think rimjob, instead of snail.  But snail works good best when discussing organized labor.  So when you see them emote with an icon's smiling open mouth...well, you know.  Hope that helps.

-- Modified on 3/7/2011 7:14:51 AM

It was there a minute ago?  Now its gone?  C'mon.  Open up.

and notice once again you quickly revert to personal attacks and offer nothing to counter my arguments.

Thanks for helping to prove my point, but not necessary,  they are self-evident

You and I should discuss further over a round of golf at my club. I will buy lunch in the clubhouse!!!

(Wouldn't that image really piss off some folks on this board!!)

I'm counting the minutes for our foursome to begin. Don't waste all your good sugar on Fair Use. That wouldn't be FAIR.

But you and I are special. We make noise when we line dance together.

Like many liberals, you assume I need to prove anything to you....

You are a FUNNY GUY!!!

Dismissing me to the TS board like only a confused straight would do.  Your beliefs that only people of a certain sexual preference should express religious and political views here - makes me hot!  My dick is so "straight" up right now, its like a Liberal's picket sign when the broadcast camera turns on.

-- Modified on 3/7/2011 8:51:30 AM

...because when I checked his computer there were two trolls named assholeydiver and fairly_usless trying to seduce him into deviate behavior.  If I wanted my little lad to engage in homosexual activities with the two of you I'd probably sell him to Muammar Ghadafi first.  Anyway, I know you miss him and have attached a little video of my boy for you to jerk off to.  Aint he cute!

Oh, poor Pap...

You claim others do not post valid arguments, and yet you can not discredit them....

Oh, Poor Pap....

So mad at the world, unable to achieve so he must lash out at others...

Oh, Poor Pap.....

Still thinking he is making a difference, when he can't even better his own life...

Oh, Poor Pap....

Boy of little credibility, Boy of low self-esteem, Boy of shatted dreams and wanna be  

Oh, Poor Pap...  

I think everyone here pays a lot of attention to what you say.  Whenever you post, your "reads" skyrocket within seconds - way pass everyone else's.  We are all hanging on every word you say.  

BTW - Do you caddy in the nude?  Seems I've been invited to a game of golf and I need someone to wash my balls.

I got room for two at bedtime. Lets read story together.

Posted By: Priapus53

Snow & F_U need to get some form of "gainful employment"------

I should know better than match wits with such a formidable lover.  Your dick is so huge that mine fits inside your pee hole.  But that's what I like about you though.  Besides your good looks, subtle humor and intelligence.  
Are you in Mensa?  I just know you could be if you wanted to be.

Generally those who react the most violently, are simply hiding the deepest in the closet

I think the two of you qualify for the pipefitters union.

Because Pus and I are planning to adopt.

So you are liberal when it comes to US citizens, but when it comes to the rest of world, you would send out a BIG FU??

Finally got a job in China? FU!!!
Finally got a job in Mexico? FU!!!
Finally got a job in a developing European County? FU!!!

Not what I expected from a liberal? So you want to protect the Union workers at the expense of others who are arguably in a wose situation the the US middle class?

BTW, I earlier posts still holds. You will only hurt the middle class. The cost of goods would soar, and wages would not keep up.

Again, the capitalists as you like to call them, can still afford it. The Middle Class is screwed!!

Here is another sad fact I should clue you in on. These things I talk abotu people doing, breaking out of the mold, pursuing further education, bettering themselves. Many are not wired like that. They do not have enough faith in themselves or their own abilities and lack the courage to try to do better.

You can generally cite these people by the Union Shirts they wear...