Here is a link to a Newsweek article from April 28, 1975 warning of the world cooling. Now a number of people claim it is warming and it is man’s fault. Maybe Mother natural is just taking it own course. Does the Sun give off the same amount energy day in and day out, year after year? How about over a period of 100 years?

depending upon the mood of the elitist-arrogants and which way they jerk on the chain.

However, on a "global perspective" I still favor the over-all warming trend as solid-science, however I disagree strongly with the Gore-ologists view that by planting 5 trees and changing out 5 lightbulbs in our homes that we'll stop this "warming-catastrophe" from occuring... How full of shit can one man get?? Gore proves there is virtually no limit!

If that is what Gore said than why are all the oil companies and rightwing nutballs like you going crazy? Once again you are pulling information our of your big, enormous ass.

What do the peer-reviewed research journals of 1975 say about it? Nothing, some speculations perhaps picked up in the popular press like this but no published papers that would support this. Scientists speculate about a lot of things, doesn't always means it turns out to be anything until some serious research is done.

State-of-the-art computing circa mid-1970's was an IBM-360, which I used to perform X-ray crystallography of proteins. I remember vividly when a colleague came running in, screaming that the IBM-360 was now loaded with 1 megabyte of RAM. Of course, there was no such thing as a 'hard disk', with all of the programs loaded onto magnetic tape from keypunched cards. Interestingly, computing time on the IBM-360 was expensed out at $100 per hour, which would convert into approx. $400 per hour in today's inflation-corrected dollars. Any primitive predictions of the time would have been done, using a computer less powerful than resides in your cell phone.

So, our computing power has increased many million-fold over the mid-1970's. Combine this with much better computer modeling/algorithms than ever existed in the '70's, and current peer-reviewed literature is unanimously in support of the reality of global warming.

And if you don't believe this, then you can just sit back and wait for the sea levels to rise with the melting of Greenland's ice - which is happening very fast indeed (see below thread).

-- Modified on 1/18/2007 7:45:38 PM

Thanks, nice to hear the admission that "circa mid-1970's" was intended to be just bullshit but that the real cry of the wolf is now being heard. However, I'm taking you up on your suggestion of pulling out the lawn chair, sipping a few brews and watching for the water from Greenland to appear. Since I am a few miles from the coast I suppose I'll get through a case or too before I need to retreat to higher ground. It is nice to know though that the arrogant-elitist parasites have my welfare at heart, makes the beer taste better.

how many trees one can plant. Obviously you did not follow the advice of your guru, ALGore, and plant any trees, so I will plant five for you as a token of my sympathy. Change  your own damn'd lightbulbs though, I don't like ladders.

Is that anyone who is more knowledgeable than you? Who can actually do the hard research that a serious topic requires? Or is all that you could hope to aspire to is drinking beer?

Bigger, the answers are: No, No, and No. I sense that you considered yourself entitled to the label. If so, take a look in the mirror, then sit down and meditate for a while, you may find a route out of such a predicament.

You never cease to underwhelm me with your lack of knowlege and understanding...

*IF* you posess the skills to read and comprehend, then click on this link and take note of what your butt-buddy Al Gore thinks will solve the susposed "crisis"... I'm not sure which is more laughable... Your posts or Al Gore's logic? Both are equally short-sighted...

Go crawl back in your hole...

then define it, otherwise it is nothing more than inflammatory invective.

-- Modified on 1/19/2007 10:07:16 AM

A lot of the 10 things I've already been doing for years.

Change a light - As soon as compact fluor's were
available I've been used them.

Drive less - could be better here but still only log about 15k miles per year.

Recycle more - since the 70's

Check your tires - duh, safety reasons as well.

Use less hot water - check, also I need to replace my hot water heater soon, probably with an on demand model. Also last year replaced air conditioner unit with one far more efficent.

Buying stuff with less packaging - i just buy less stuff to begin with.

Lower your thermostat - doing that for years, also have a programmable one.

Plant a tree - only have access to my property but have 6 trees on .2 acres

Turn off electronics - yep fairly quiet house.

On behalf of Al Gore (the fellow that invented the internet and brought us the Al Gore Beetle) you are hereby awarded the "Buddy of the Month" Award. It is suggested, however, that you volunteer to plant trees somewhere at least three days this year. Plenty of old folks who could use the help with your shovel.

I own a solar array/battery/inverter system which creates 5000kw+ of power... I haven't had an electric bill in years, and often recieve a dividend check back from Exel-Nrgy... (plus a NICE tax-deduction from the state and misc. depreciations, THANKS LIBERAL LUNITICS! LOL! I'm laughing all the way to the bank!)

I'm grid-tied with my solar and other "renewable" electicity-producing systems, Which means that my power meter rolls both ways depending on my usage... Minnesota was one of the first states to adopt this liberal-forced-market policy on "Big-Electricity" way back in 1981, I've grown and added as time rolls on to continue to re-knew my tax-credits,,, Energy-savings is just a side-benefit to the gross-income offset that this stuff provides! HELLO FREE HOBBY-DOLLARS!!

I have countless trees on my 200+ acres... Though I haven't planted any, but I usually only cut the dead ones for fire wood for my out-door-boiler. (Live trees make shitty firewood! Gotta dry them for years sometimes to get them to burn right)

I've been using white-LED bulbs suplemented with low-voltage halogen lamps for several years nicer light spectrum with less eye-strain than floresents... WAY more total-effecient in wattage than floresents also...  Al Gore's retard-leval rational does not take into account the amount of CO2 required to produce each floresent screw-in, not to mention all the mercury-oxide that is released in the prosess! every one of those bulbs that is produced creates more CO2 and toxic polutants that it will save in it's expected lifetime! (And this from the man that wanted to be prez... he don't even understand how a simple lightbulb works...)

I make my own bio-diesel or run B100 when I'm in the city.

I heat with a corn/wood pellet furnace, and keep it as hot as I want in the house! (still spending less than $30 a month!)Sometimes I pay nothing, providing I'm not too lazy to fire the wood boiler outside! Both are plumbed through a heat-exchanger to my in-floor radiant heat...

Tires are a mute-point, my vehicle came with pressure sensors built in... Most of the winter I run Bilzzaks which are poor on fuel economy, but great on the ice...

I grocery-shop at a coop, and mainly buy bulk... Not because I give a shit about "packaging" or "Mother Earth", but because organics are healthier and cheaper purchased in bulk.

I refuse to recycle! They can kiss my ass! But I produce very little garbage, and I do compost most waste-edibles... I also grow alot of food.

I have multiple ways to gain hot water from waste-heat in other systems on my estate, so I do not even own a waterheater! (That piece of shit solar-heat-exchanger on my roof is worthless! I with I could get my money back on that!)

I do drive alot! 30-40 thousand miles per year easy! And I will continue to do so, it's a long trek to the metro, and that's where the money is AND where the whores are in this state! 5+hrs of driving is a small price to pay for living free from the rat-race! Maybe I'll buy a Prius someday so I can sniff myown farts! LOL! (Funniest SouthPark episode ever! "Smug-clouds")

I could give a damn whether or not I'm "carbon-neutral" or not... But I'm mighty comfortable, set my own scedule in life, work when I want and for whom I choose, have no morgage or debt and owe no man nothing... I sleep heavy and fuck hard! Life is good!

How miserable it would be to be "Al Gore", a tortured man, continually on a quest to save something that cannot be saved, using methods that will have a virtually immeasurable effect, and not even possessing the IQ to comprehend his folly.... Like a rat running on a wheel... What a useless excuse for a life!

What ever happened to the thought "eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow we may die"??

Why is it that the liberal mind is consumed with self-preservation?

They'll waste their entire lifetime attempting to save the very thing that is ticking by as they toil... Enjoy life! Drink, Fuck, and Consume! This planet was created for our pleasure!

If "the future generations" are the big driving force for this "save the planet" thinking, then pull out of your woman and unload your nuts in the grass! Over-Population could be solved in one generation!

because that poster simply lists ten conservation tips. Are you really bent out of shape because he thinks people should turn off appliances when they are not in use? Explain why you have a problem if that is all that he says is necessary to end global warning. You really love the smell of your own farts just a bit too much.

you've been recycling the same shit for years.

If you had WATCHED the movie, or been to the assinine slideshow (Like I have!) Then you'd realize that Gore state "We have a 10 year window to turn this around", then proceeds in his bafoonery to tell us that these things will HELP! They won't even DENT the problem! And nobody on the fart-sniffing-green-left wants to accept that this is the course of the planet reguardless of our efforts to "change"!

Eat, Drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we WILL die! Time to update the old Roman-slogan!

You don't even recycle your own shit, but merely choke down and belch up someone elses! You are less of a self-thinker that I had even considered...

Why don't you recycle the methane from your own ass and use it to light your crack-pipe... Maybe if you get high enough you can contemplate at least one free thought in your entire useless lifetime!

I imagine that you probably worship this lowlife.

I guess I was right about him as well as I am about you... Are you allergic to the prosess of constructing an agruement? Is that why you dip and weave like a kite tossed in the wind?

Apparently you feel that the global warming we observe (you DO admit there is evidence of global warming, don't you?) is totally unaffected by human activities (such as large-scale releases of CO2 from automobile exhausts, etc., etc.  Is the primary source of your disbelief scientific, political, or ideological?  If you claim it is scientific, then you are in an incredibly small minority in your views.

While it may be true that, as individual working alone, we face a very daunting task, it seems pretty clear that, if we as a human race (or simply as the people of America) continue to cop out on this problem, we are severely failing our descendants.

Consider the followng: you are given a choice of paying 5 dollars for a protective shield for your neck to protect you moving through a forest inhabited by fierce natives who attack travelers and cut their heads off.  If you had good reason to believe the story of those natives might be accurate, would you pass up the neck shield to save yourself 5 dollars.  (I realize that this might not be the best analogy, but I think you are intelligent enough to get my point.)

Please remember that over 99 percent of all species that have lived on earth are now extinct.  There is no guarantee that we will never become one of them.  

I personally view it as an admission of moral bankruptcy to smugly wring one's hands and say that nothing can be done.  History has shown that one dedicated person can accomplish a LOT if they are willing to pay the requisite price. (Remember Jesus, Mohatma Ghandi, and Martin Luther King, as examples.  For negative examples, consider Adolph Hitler and Saddam Hussein.) If you want to say that you aren't motivated enough to do it (or don't care because you probably won't be around to suffer the consequences), that, at least, would be honest.

One additional point: I posted a couple of responses to your message below citing your work with reducing economic entropy.  I would like to get a response, please.  I am VIP, so you can respond by PM if you wish.

-- Modified on 1/19/2007 7:52:10 PM

making sense. Why does pointing out simple acts of conservation get you so bent out of shape? As you say, he is not asking for government intervention so it won't cost you any money if I turn off my TV before I go to work. Why do you care if I change my lightbulbs? Bush doesn't want to do anything and according to you, Gore doesn't want to do anything either. What's your problem?

in the boondocks churning his own butter and fucking his own goats. I can't help it if every post of yours contradicts the one before.

Nice try, Harry.  But BS none the less.  Global warming is not just a "fashion of the day", it is VERY well and very widely documented.  Nobody has seriously argued for global cooling in many years --- and even then it was more speculative than documented.

that the earth's climate has changed dramatically over the centuries... portions of the Sahara were once much greener than in present day.  While some of these changes are due to the movement of the continents due to plate tectonics, some changes are due to climatic changes.

What is not absolutely certain is what the current "predicted" climatic changes are caused by.  In fact, some predict that we are actually headed for a cooling trend due to changes in the amount of solar radiation reaching the earth's surface... but we won't go there.

Now - on to mankind and what to do, what to do.

I really don't care WHAT YOU DO- your puny efforts are of no concern to both the earth, the universe and especially to me!  Here is the breakdown.... Cows produce lots of methane...
The 3rd most important greenhouse gas... (after CO2 and Water Vapor).  
http://www.physicalgeography.net/fundamentals/7h.html Are you going to go all across the world - and  yes, it would be all across the world and tell everyone- that they have to get rid of their cows?  I suspect not.

With respect to CO2 emissions...yea, we should cut down - but suppose that the US does eliminate ALL CO2 emissions... the US C emissions are ~1,447,000 thousand tons of C every year with a growth rate close to 10% per annum... now the problem, China currently emits 918,000 thousand tons of C every year, BUT with a growth rate of 40%!  It will not take them long to "out greenhouse" us!  What are you going to do?  stop their use of C based fuels.?

For those keeping records, the US is #1 in Carbon emission on a per capita basis... #2? Australia... #3??? Saudi Arabia - now there is a shocker.! lol! #4?  Canada...

Soooooo, while your suggestion that I drive a Prius is just dandy... I do a lot of my driving on the highway at 50-70 MPH... and the Prius is not so good at gas mileage under those circumstances.  and I usually have 3 or more people in the car.

So - now lets exchange the smugness hat shall we?  You want my solution to pollution and greenhouse gas emission?  Sure I'll even give you 2!  
1) Given that not all folk are "cut out" to be parents (read the thread dealing with the mother who drank herself into a hyponatrimic state and died leaving her kids to fend for themselves) I would suggest that we limit reproduction to those proven to have the appropriate psychological make up to love, and care for children... thereby limiting population growth - and in fact leading to an overall reduction in the human population and thereby impact on the planet.  Oh, and if you are concerned about selecting who can be parents... I would suggest to you, that the socialists who want to control C emissions also wish to "select" individuals who will enjoy the "sweet" life, sending the rest of the population into boring tedium...

2) Space exploration - leave the planet and colonization of other planets to alleviate the overpopulation of this one....

With respect to the extinction of the Human Species... lol!  That comment alone acknowledges that there have been climatic changes that long preceed man... but having said that, think about it, I fully expect that one of two things will happen to "mankind"!  we will either evolve...(given that you believe in evolution) or we will be made extinct!  

As for your command that I respond to your posts!?   lol!  I respond only to two on this board... and neither are currently posters! lol!

Maybe not quite the answers you anticipated.... but after all - if you are a GOOD scientist... you will know when you do not have all the variables accounted for.  And in the world of climate change - we don't!

Thank you for your detailed, if somewhat ill-tempered, response to my post.  (By the way, I didn't say anything about you driving a Prius(?)).  I have read and reread the article you linked to as well as your analyses, and I am reconsidering my position on global warming.  I feel I need more information.

In the Jan. 2007 edition of Discover magazine (p. 26), the following paragraph is included in the article on glacier melting:

*There is little doubt that these changes are human induced, as the Bush administration-appointed federal Climate Change Science Program conceded in May.  The panel reported that the world is warming throughout the lower atmosphere, as climate models had predicted, and acknowledged *clear evidence of human influences on the climate system.*  A study in February reported that heat-trapping greenhouse gases, such as carbon dioxide and methane, are being released at a rate 30 times faster thean they were during a well-studied climate shift 55 million years ago that triggered an extreme period of warming.  *It is clear as a bell that the rapid warming of the past 30 years is due to increasing human-made greenhouse gases*, says physicist James Hansen, director of NASA's Goddard Institute for Space Studies in New York and a leading authority on climate change.*

I agree that the implementation of any real solution to the problems of greenhouse gas emissions will be neither easy nor obvious --- if even possible.

As to your proposed "solutions": (1) is simply eugenics under another name.  You think getting greenhouse gas emissions adequately curtailed through international effort would be difficult?  Try telling people that they cannot reproduce any more.  (2) is logistically impossible, given the current rate of population growth on this planet AND the cost per capita of getting people out into space (let alone finding habitable places for them to go).  I seem to recall seeing some calculations to substantiate this somewhere, but it was a long time ago and I don't remember where.  Suffice it to say, this is no solution either.

Finally, I am dismayed that you interpreted my request to get some clarification on your post about economic entropy as a "command".  I was simply trying to UNDERSTAND what you were saying, because it seemed to point in the directions I indicated.  If I misunderstood what you were saying and put words in your mouth, so to speak, I apologize if I got it wrong.  Will you please enlighten me?

try sitting in an international hearing to determine what, if anything, data mean.  lol!  I have done this on more than one occasion.  It is, at best, frustrating.  That is why, when I look at data, I look at how that data were gathered, the controls that were provided as a comparator and who did the gathering and whether or not they are inclined to have a bias... yea yea, I know, scientists are "supposed" to be objective.... but are they?  

Here are the simple things that we know, it is getting cooler in the SE US?  why?  there is evidence that the polar ice caps and alpine glaciers are decreasing... in some places - not all, why not all?  To attribute that warming trend to human-made greenhouse gasses alone is a bit quick... for example - there seems to be an increase in solar intensity... what role does that play?  evidence would suggest, that our energy policy, fossil fuel burning, and the Hindus love of cows are directly attributable to planetary warming... I mean, after all, Mars too is undergoing a climate warming trend....   Why is  this not discussed as part and parcel of our solar system... You know - a control planet!  hey, why didn't the geniuses at the Goddard center think of that?! You see, the earth does not sit in a "vacuum" (lol, well, it does, but one that is filled with everything from virtual particles to radiation to who knows what - "dark matter"?)   So the influence of solar radiation and "other" perhaps as yet undefined factors may play a role in what we see as "global warming"!    As I say, we just do not, as it now stands, have enough data... those that pretend we do, well - they may be right - but they also may be wrong... as is the strange case of the Montreal Protocol.... ha ha ha, scientists replace ozone depleting compounds with greenhouse gases!  lol - those "scientists" what a hoot!  they are so FUN to hang with!  and remember, they all belong to the "league of condescending scientists"! lol  Seriously, they were freaking guessing... and did not want to admit it with the disclaimer... "this may cause more harm than good, but it is our best guess."

"Although the Montreal Protocol does phase out the worst ozone depleting substances (CFCs, HCFCs, halons, methyl bromide), unfortunately it allows ozone depleting chemicals to be replaced with two greenhouse gases, hydrofluorocarbons (HFCs) and perfluorocarbons (PFCs). Both of these chemicals are among the six global warming gases to be controlled under the Kyoto Protocol."
http://www.fpif.org/briefs/vol5/v5n08ozone.html

With respect to my "solutions"  - bub, not everyone will survive, but if you want to know how I think that "mankind" will survive... solution #2 looks pretty good to me.  Not every one goes... Eugenics?  'member - even in the US eugenics was practiced - yes practiced.... prior to WWII.  As far as understanding the need for a species to survive, think of it this way, we are the first species to have the capability to know that we are becoming extinct... the only question is - will we?  

This doom and gloom enough for ya?  When you have the leader of a country that has the potential to unite half the world in a war on western civilization and is seeking nuclear weapons - (Iran and the Muslim world) out there crying that the end is here... well!  like I say - option #2 is looking pretty good.  

Solution, what I also believe is that nature tried an experiment with AIDS - and with the Bird flu... believe me, we are due for an epidemic... and our political correctness will prevent the quarantine necessary to protect the bulk of humanity.  

Right wing is this... perhaps.  Fascist.... perhaps.  but know this, I am not advocating any of this, I am merely saying that if you want solutions, they are there... now.  if you want politically acceptable solutions, please do not reject mine... and they go and cry reduce C emissions... reduce C emissions... come up with a plan... a real plan  = one that is economically, politically and technically acceptable... ALL of the proposed solutions are unacceptable from where I sit.  

This is why when the Hollywood bunch gets on TV or Radio... I am always amused... universally, they are ignorant - and do not understand the complexity of the problem... they are reduced to slogans and one liners.  Remember - if you make people think - they will hate you, if you make them think they are thinking they will love you!!!

and yea, when someone posts... e-mail me... answer me...etc, that is a bit much... as far as an answer it is in the original thread and post.  

-- Modified on 1/20/2007 8:39:59 PM

is that we don't think (key word is think) enough about the problem as we put it into the computer.  Remember, these are MODELS - mathematical models.... big difference in dealing with the Bragg equation with defined variables and knowing the influence of those variables on the overall mathematics... and putting into some sort of computer "the variables ya gots"... and not knowing how they interact of incluence each other... read my post below wrt the Montreal vs the Kyoto treaties... one giveth and one taketh away... why?  cause the scientist told me to do it!  whahahahahah,.....

read my post and weep.... we need a serious overhaul of our research institutions.... serious.  this is only the tip of the iceberg.  Get real, academia is corrupted.

These things "start" as talking points, then like a malignant tumor, continue to grow! next they become "policy, then eventually LAW!

You just shut up and watch, and soon some "lobby-group" will be pushing policy for these "co2-neutral" ideas that Gore has attached to the end of his movie... You'll see, it's typical liberal-incrementalism... Soon these bulbs will be shoved up the ass of every American, whether they want them or not!


-- Modified on 1/21/2007 5:20:39 PM

That's obviously a woman's job, lol!

You seem to have a lot of issues about having things rammed up your ass. I guess that explains your substance problem. If you were a true conservative you would get over it and forgive your father already. He only buggered you because your mom would not put out.

...I guess you're more used to the idea and thus don't object much, perhaps even enjoying it...

How old were you when you father stopped fucking you?? He hasn't?? Well, that explains alot...

(BTW, I fail to see where openly admitting the use of pot makes me a substance abuser... I merely "enjoy" a fine substance as often ass I see fit, lol! However, your condition of "anal abuse" is something you should seek help with, you just LOVE thing shoved in your ass!)

the level of "I know you are but what am I?" You re losing my interest. Now you are insane, a racist, a closet queer and boring.

-- Modified on 1/21/2007 10:18:37 PM

So I've dumbed it down to where You like to play at... And Now you claim it bores you to read "lowbreiu", yet somehow you are still entertained when you write it??

Hopefully you will eventually tire completely of this and move on... Then the grown-ups can get back to discussing world issues...

Does SesemeStreet.com have a polics board? You might find yourself more culturally abept over there...

I tried to argue this point with zinaval, to no avail... The greenies claim victory to the argument first, then go about disassembeling objection... how pompus!

First, the hysteria-bent left has to be chased out of the room [my job], then level-headed men with education, experence, and wisdom can discuss the matters at hand [your job]... Brilliant essay! Thank you for putting the time into it!

Is it possible to post BSD's analysis as a new thread? It really is quite good and deserves a larger audience.

Just a thought.

Our comments to his post will be lost, collateral-damage for the greater good... (we can simply re-post.)

I'll work on it, but I first need to save a copy in case I fuck up and lose his post...

And force-medicate J.Bender! lol!

I think you might be on the verge of a medical-breakthrough that will dwarf Viagra! The cure to common liberalism!

If "Liberalism is a mental-disorder", perhaps we can come up with a psychotropic-cure before the next election and save America!

I just happen to believe that folk need to look at fact, and not "made up" fact.  Example, on illegal immigration from Mexico... if you look at what is said in Spanish in Mexico - about the issue - it is spooky.  

Sadly - history teaches us that folk will tell you what they are going to do, before they actually do it.  right now - we - the  US and western europe - are being told that our way of life is gonna be ended.  Severaly different groups are telling us this... and for the most part - we do not take it seriously... GW thinks that he can either bomb or dominate us to a settlement.  the left thinks that we can talk our way out of it... and history would dictate that we better figure out a way out - and soon.

Bender?  keeps me on my toes.. posted above at the top of page - a preamble as to why I am the way I am... probably not much help.  but it makes me happy.

...and sadly most "conservatives" currently in power are far more lost and left-leaning that most Rightwingers realize...

"Conservative" is actually rooted in constitutionalism, not fundamentalism... However Christian's found better bed-fellows amongst the Constitutionalists that among the "progressives" who see our founding documents as a shifting sand in which they can form and manipulate to suit their whim...

You, like me seem to take a strict-view of repeating things in their origional intent, context and meaning... "truth-serving", for better or worse...

But our opposing team would rather drift to whatever meaning meets their means and needs... Reguardless of how that objective is reached, often asserting the will of a few over the desire of the masses...

(Nobody is suggesting that to be "conservative" we have to deny or hide our rampent sexual proclivaties, LOL!)