A small group of people want to change the way we hobby in a profound and lasting manner. I am withholding my comments at this time but if you know i think you know what i think



To Clients and Providers on this Board:

I have been lurking on this board for several months now. Recently, it has come to light that there is a new system being rolled out to help providers protect themselves from some of the dangers of their trade. There has been much discussion on this board about a newly designed Are They Safe Provider Information System. There are many questions and misunderstandings which are currently circulating.

I am the designer and developer of the system about which everyone is talking and speculating. So I am in the unique position of being able to clear the air and say something authoritative and definitive about it. I must break my silence here to address some of the issues which have been raised on this board in the past 24 hours.

First: I designed and built this system FOR providers. Until you look into the eyes of a victim of the violence that has now been forced upon several providers and you see the sheer terror she's experienced, you can't get how her situation cries out for something to help providers protect themselves. Other cities have seen providers killed recently. Here in Phoenix, we've been relatively lucky so far -- yet, for our own local victims that's small consolation -- they've still been violated in a horrible and dehumanizing way. Frankly for me, this is absolutely unacceptable and is the primary motivation for my building this system.

Second: To the provider community I am a virtual unknown -- I don't participate much. So, for me to go to them directly and ask them to trust me was simply not feasible. As a result I contacted Dave. I told him what I was working on and asked for his assistance in helping me to reach the provider community to implement it. He put me in touch with several reputable providers who thought it was a great idea and they helped me fine-tune the system to become something they could really use. Be very clear: I went to Dave and the one provider I did know with this. Dave did not come to me. So all this speculation about Dave and his motivation is simply that -- speculation. Give the man a break and get off his back about this!

Third: The system is free to providers. Yes, I hear the skepticism and the doubts -- how long will it be free and somebody even implored the clients to watch their wallets. That's a fair concern. Well, just to clear the air, the system is free to local providers and I don't see ever charging them for it. (And, just to address the speculation, I am really not interested in bartering for it's use -- no free services for free access here.) This is a speculative project. Phoenix-Tucson is a "beta" test of software and a solution which I think is needed and wanted in many other places as well. If it goes well, and if it is accepted locally, perhaps we'll roll it out in other cities and regions for pay and let them support our efforts. Does the project have commercial value? Perhaps, but we'll take that one step at a time. It's been suggested that we may do a client side version of it and charge for it. It's possible. But again, this region may be the test site.

Fourth: I am now associated with this hobby. Like many of you, if that were to come out in the open, I can't tell you how much turmoil that would cause for me and those close to me. Unfortunately, we live in a culture which does not publicly approve of our hobby. So, trust me when I tell you that confidentiality of client info is a very high priority. So, as a hobbyist, I am very comfortable with what has been designed and it's ability to keep yours and my participation in this hobby very safe and confidential. If you knew me, I think you'd be comfortable trusting your secret with this system ahead of many others. And, rest assured, I am not with LE in any capacity whatsoever. Never have been, never will be!

Fifth: To answer the hot question, a client cannot opt out. As I said, this system is for providers. It's not for clients. When you first see a provider using the system, she'll give you a code to identify yourself from then on. If she already knows you, she'll give you a code with no more information ever required. Then when you see another provider who uses this system, you'll give the new provider your code and she'll know you've seen somebody on the network and you should be ok to see. If you don't have a code, she'll take the information from you that she needs to check you out like a first-timer. We'll make sure that she knows HOW to do an effective check on first-timers. And trust me when I tell you we will push HARD to get every provider in the valley on board eventually -- the provider community MUST unite behind a commitment to help stop the violence we are seeing now and the only way to do this effectively is get as many providers contributing information as we can.

And if a provider doesn't report your visit, she will risk being terminated from the system. Bad news fellas: the first time you ever called a provider, you revealed yourself and left a trail of your action. Its too late! The phone company, your ISP... every email host, every caller-ID blocked call is a matter of record that someone can find if they are motivated to look -- that's just a fact of our technical lives in the year 2003. It's pretty hard to play in this hobby without leaving a way to prove it. And that was so LONG before this system ever showed up. It will be a hell of a lot easier to find you from these sources than it will ever be to find you from my system. Unless you contact a provider first, she won't have any way to know that you even exist.

Finally: This is for all you providers out there. First, I acknowledge and salute all of you for your courage and your work. Second, I implore you all to get CALLER ID and USE IT! I know some of you are afraid you will lose business if you tighten your identification requirements. Trust me when I tell you that your life is worth a hell of a lot more than the loss of a client's business where he won't give you an honest access into who he is. You can't afford to take chances anymore. Even though I don't know you, that doesn't mean I wouldn't shed a tear if something happened to you. Please be safe and be careful. Finally, if you are interested in participating in this network, please let Dave know of your interest -- we still have a few openings on our "founders" roster.

Thank you.

first: why should we trust this guy:

>To the provider community I am a virtual unknown -- I don't >participate much.

second: why is he interested in how often i see a particular provider? and what is he doing with that info?

>And if a provider doesn't report your visit, she will risk >being terminated from the system. Bad news fellas: the first >time you ever called a provider, you revealed yourself and >left a trail of your action. (track my sessions my ass)

third: does anyone know this guy?
>So, as a hobbyist, I am very comfortable with what has been >designed and it's ability to keep yours and my participation >in this hobby very safe and confidential. If you knew me, I >think you'd be comfortable trusting your secret with this >system ahead of many others.

the problem is i dont know you and frankly you scare the shit out of me!

fourth: how do you plan on pushing hard and who is doing this pushing

>We'll make sure that she knows HOW to do an effective check on >first-timers. And trust me when I tell you we will push HARD >to get every provider in the valley on board eventually

what about the ladies who have their own systems in place and couldn't care less about this one?

Guys this dude and his group want to know who your seeing and when. They have not said why (it took 18 hrs of constant badgering on the boards and in email to get this out of them)

you will note its not for the clients in any way shape or form now or later....

>To answer the hot question, a client cannot opt out. As I >said, this system is for providers. It's not for clients.

and if you end up in this database well tough shit your there forever.

The market is the only way to kill this very client unfriendly idea fellas.

While I obviously applaud any measures to improve provider safety, I do know many men are already concerned with the  level of screening we do now.

I am just not sure men will want to have ID information go into a data base that might fall into the wrong hands, and I don't blame them.

Have client verification services like SecretKeeper and RoomService been very successful to date?

Sounds like it.

1) Enlist providers
2) Offer "protection"
3) Track all their appointments
4) Penalize them for working "outside of the system"

We can't afford to fall for this girls, giving up your liberties for the illusion of safety is just wrong.

Also, FWIW, anything run by a man for the "benefit of the girls" is *NEVER* for the benefit of the girls. If this gets started, I'll give 3-to-1 that within 6 months the girls will have to pay a commission on their appointments to cover the cost of the "protection."

I don't know anything about this system and where it will eventually lead.  Everything is a guess.  But if Dave and our women say this system is the way to go.  I trust that they have researched it and and given it thoughtful consideration.  Many people know Dave and I think we can all agree on the fact that he is honest and thoughtful. So if a few TER ladies got involved with the project wouldnt that be nice.  I want people to know they cannot come to Phoenix and hurt our women.  TER men stand up and be counted.  Who will toe the line for our women?

Dave is always out for Dave look behind his rethoric and read between the lines. He is fighting to stay in the loop and relevant this is just another attemtpt of his to do that.

His list membership drops every month, and that concerns him.
He goes out of his way to denigrate any alternative systems for contact information.
it took 18 HRS! of verbal sparring with him to get him to come clean on what this "new great thing" entails, and how everyone will be part of it.

on another board he made a call for any providers with large personal databases to get a hold of him. What that means is even i avoid any girl involved in this system like the plague. (and you can bet i am, for the next several months its pure MP for me)I could end up in this over my (constantly and vociferiously stated) objections.

of course its ultimately up to you but remember if you are included its for as long as this systems lasts. (ie forever)

Reave

I don't always agree with Dave and we have often debated our views but respected each others' rights to have them (which seems to be next to impossible for some others to do). One thing that I do know for sure is that he has always had the best interest of the providers as a top priority in all that he does.

Say what you will about this idea for protecting the providers but I give credit because someone is at least TRYING TO DO SOMETHING TO HELP! That is more than I can say for a lot of others who, instead of providing rational and respectful input towards solving the problem, prefer to criticize, insult & ridicule those who are trying to help find a solution.

Reave

It is so sad that when someone does step up to the plate that really cares, someone bashes their motives.  If this is a bad idea how about coming up with one.  Or is it just easier and more fun to tear others down instead of building them up. I see Chrissy has some ideas of her own which is great.  I will support whatever our ladies need to be safe.

Reave

It's so good to see something positive written on the issue. I like knowing that there's someone out there who 'gets it'.

xoxoxoxoxo to you Rick

Reave

I'm not really known under this handle much at all....but I was a "plank holder" on the list and have been active on the newsgroups back even into the late 80's.

Obviously we ALL need to be concerned when violence rears it's heads in our "community". I've NEVER had a problem with reasonable steps to ensure safety for both providers and hobbyests. A couple things come to mind here:

1) it simply will not work and can provide a sense of false security. It's very easy for anyone with bad intent to work around the system at will.

2) Sadly, this is an illegal activity and the new "list" would not have any legal protection at all (IMO).

I don't subscribe to the theory that this is just a way to make money off of others misfortune...however certain elements of the plan certainly seem to make it so. It's designed to provide information....not protection.

To illustrate, lets say I see a provider....will pick Sky...and she subscribes to a "service". She could provide with a "code" which then could be tracked by the system. I'm "hidden"....but open to the system. Only 1 provider accepted a risk...but all are protected...to a degree. Perfect, hardly...but reasonably safe for all. Especially given the difficulty of alwaysverifying referrals...I used Sky since she just went thru the process with me.

Anyway, it's a nice thought and has merit...but as a SERVICE...not a for profit business.

Reave

I certainlly believe in not for profit agencies.  They have a diffrent goal than a for profit business.  But then would it be ran like a co-op?  Or like a credit union?  Both I believe still have operating costs but the attitude is diffrent.  The solution is not perfect but it would help.  As in all issues there is usually no one solution. It may take diffrent soluitions for diffrent people.  I do disagree that this activity is illegal.  It is only illegal if you decide to pay for sex.  I would never pay for sex.

If that were all it was that would be fine.

its the administrative detals that do this in for me. They plan on tracking sessions, not allowing any one to leave once in, pressuring the girls into joining this system etc its all above if you read carefully

moebius...

The devil is in the details...to a degree your points mirror mine. The overcontrol is an issue.

My understanding is its not recieved any support anyway...maybe in a different format it would.

I don't know that much about it.  But to recieve the support it will need to survive I am sure it will adapt to what the providers and hobbyist need.  But we will see.  I am glad the subject is being talked about maybe something good will come of it.

"Those who would trade essential liberties for some temporary security deserve neither" (Benjamin Franklin)

  No one is more rabidly concerned about the safety of our providers than myself. However; To run off half cocked giving all sorts of personal/sensitive info to a data base that we have no real idea who is behind and which either LE or criminal concerns could use as a tool for extortion is folly!.

  You're right on the mark about "Big Brother" issues here Chrissy. Even though much information could be shaken from an individual providers "book" or our own computers for that fact at least its scattered and non-centralized as opposed to this idea which untill the hobby is legalized as well as de-stigmatized could enslave and/or distroy a hobbyist.