I was a bit late to the "party" on the thread below, and I really don't want to post to that thread, as my thoughts on this, though they may have been sparked by things said in that thread, are not specific to the original post of that thread or the direction it took, and the fact that the lady the original poster mentioned was ok with that post would lead some to miss the larger picture and assert that it is a non-issue because in that one instance it was alright.
So, new, long and rambling post by me to most likely just waste server space and stuff.


I noticed there seemed to be an "Us vs Them" quality to the majority of posts there (in the aforementined thread), and I see it more and more in all kinds of threads on the national, and different regional boards.  

Why is that when a group gets together they seem to have to divide themselves up again?  This site, it seems, was originally a haven for those in this sub-culture, but as time has gone on it has become divided into clients vs providers (in the interest of disclosure I will admit that I am often accused, and probably rightly so, of "taking the side of the providers"....I blame estrogen solidarity), agencies vs idependants, people that like the banter posts vs those that only desire information and facts, etc...

It seems once people feel, relatively secure in a group that would usually be maligned by society at large, once they get comfortable in being with "their people"  they have to find ways to further sub-divide that group to include those that are really "their people" and distance themselves from those they think not of their grouping.  I do it myself, I see some posts that I find such an afront to my sensibilities I have to lock horns with the poster (and I can lock horns well...as I am quite horny *grin* sorry the pun had to be made...I was powerless to resisit it.) Maybe what the site as whole needs to keep in mind, as long as posts aren't beyond the pale of all reasonablitiy, is that we as a group are not exactly embraced by the world.  That when push comes to shove we are alone for the most part, most of society, not only, would never defend this world but would most likely cheer anything that maligned or damaged it.  I don't sanction defending the rip-offs the violent, the stalkers the rapists, the B&S and all the negatives this sub-culture attracts...but for the majority of people here they share a common interest that shouldn't be so undermined by more petty, self-serving considerations, like clients vs providers, angencies vs independants, etc....that's the minutia that obscures the larger picture.  

Now, the issue of discretion....you knew it coming, and if you didn't you obviously have never read a post by me..or at least haven't read many...

One post concerning discretion in posts on these boards said something along the lines of, "everyone reading and posting here is somehow involved in this business", that cauhgt my attention, primarly because I am quite sure it isn't true, I am quite sure that though we may want to believe that, it isn't so.  That the society at large that doesn't welcome the folks here, that maligns hobbyists and providers, do read here. From suspicious wives, to LE, to family or friends people that got an "anonymous tip" from another about someone here... the haven isn't really so safe...

A couple anecdotal examples of the fact "we are not alone"...

I knew a lady in another state, that had a family member get an anonymous email saying she was a provider, and who she was.  The family member of hers that was sent this email, came to TER and looked at posts by and about her, and found the site she was on...no face in the pictures, he was able to still believe it was a mistake and it wasn't her that was this lady...then a post by a client, saying how he missed seeing her on her birthday because she had gone on a trip with a couple of people for her birthday and wasn't in town that day...Well, he knew when her birthday was, and knew where she went, and with whom she went...and that was enough proof for him to be sure it was really her.  

Another instance of someone not involved in this business using TER to find a lady...
There was another lady, her neighbor had asked her out and she had declined, he later found her on one of those odd pornsites where a guy goes around and films himself with different women.  Now, being in porn, whereas not exactly looked upon as a positive thing by many, is not illegal, but this got the guy searching a bit, and he took a shot at her being a provider, and a search led him to TER, where he went to her regional board and though she never posted here (didn't even have a user account) she did have reviews, and guys did post about her, well there was enough information in posts, to lead the neighbor to put her on a short list of ladies that could be her, and he went to those profiles and looked at those sites, and lo and behold, he found her site.  He confronted her with the site and the reviews and informed her that if she would see those men for money she couldn't refuse to see him...he berated her, and told her she either would "see" him (and for free) or he would turn her into LE.  She had to pull her site, and move.

Now, if you are wondering how I know these couple of anecdotes to be true, in the first I was one of the people that went away with the lady for her birthday, and in the second, I was that lady's web designer/master and got a call to pull her stuff down.  

OK, those were both examples of ladies being outted because of people not "in the business in way or another" reading posts here...but if you are a client reading this and thinking it's just a problem the ladies face (and happen to have that self-serving "us vs Them" mentality) how about a hypothetical situation, that has it's premise in things that have actually happened...

What if a married client has a suspicious SO...he fails to clear his history or clear his cache, or  whatnot, and she find he has been to TER (it happens guys).  She goes the regional board for where they live and starts reading posts...no actual proof of who he is or if he posts at all or even if he posts that he has actually seen anyone...
Then say she finds a post from a lady, asking if  she saw "X" at such and such public place on such and such day...maybe mentions the woman she saw him with...and Ooooppps...that just happened to be the guy with the suspicious SO, and it was the SO that was with him at that place queried about, gee...he might be a bit caught huh?

Then that leads the suspicious to SO to read his reviews and all of a sudden that proof that he does see providers, and who, and what they did....and she is hurt more than he probably intended, and divorce court looms on the horizon...and the proof is solid enough the ability to convincingly deny it is pretty much gone.

I think in the idea of defending oneself from the others on the boards allowed for a well intentioned post to be mischaracterised as jealousy, an effort to endorse the virtues of discretion to be seen as  an attack on the original poster and a need for that to met with being defensive...

I don't think the original poster intended anything negative with his post, but perhaps didn't think about the random improbabilites that are still possibilities, and I don't think the reply suggesting such a question being better suited for contact out of the public eye was an effort to attack but simply a reminder that we really do have to cover each other's backs in this world, that one little mis-post can have ramifications for those you post to or about, that you would never assume or even consider...simple as that, no need for the levels of acrimony that followed...and I can't help but think it was bit of the "us vs them" that caused a defensive posture on both sides, when there really is only one side.

Oh and quick parting hypocrital, and divisive thought:
How come the ladies are supposed to worry about the clients and their information, and be paragons of discretion, but clients will post all but street address in reviews, will, mention what they know about a lady's personal life, will leave numbers and emails where they can be found ect.  and the ladies are supposed to be ok with that, for themselves or other ladies?  and if they aren't for any reason they get called out for being jealous or unstable, or touchy, or bitchy or whatever? Being willing to give at least as well as you hope to get seems the minimum that should be offered.

When I replied to that particular post it really was supposed to be just a suggestion on PMing someone with that type of personal information. Suddenly, the flaming started. I know the poster was probably harmless in what his post was about and was flirting on the board (which is okay), but any hints of location, names, etc., is not using good discretion whether it's a provider or a hobbyist. Some might call it paranoia, but I call it being extra safe. The things "all of us" have to go through on a weekly basis in this business is alarming. We don't need any extra stress, especially with LE. You wouldn't believe the number of strange emails I'm getting lately (more than usual). It's scarey.

Hugs,
ciara

-- Modified on 4/9/2006 3:16:56 PM

Again we are on the same wavelength at about the same time (read my post below), but you had the examples to back it up.  

It's difficult to remember on these boards, but this hobby operates in hostile territory.  Everyone has to respect each other's privacy.  Moreover, it's good to show that respect to one another.  It's not an indication of jealousy to be on edge over seemingly harmless breeches of privacy.  I don't blame ladies or clients for that.

wishing to talk out a problem, or needing a ride etc.  I can honestly say, I am a big enough of a boy to handle these types of situations (and in fact, did hear the lady out, and did get up and give a ride home to a tired provider).  I agree, do not leave stuff out for your SO to find out.  The reverse damage to the lady (provider) can be significant to say nothing of your own life, and the feelings of your SO.  I have witnessed "jeolousy wars" up close and personal and they are not pretty.

I have also witnessed "stalker" fallout... that too is unpleasant as is LE review.  All leads me to believe that we really need this hobby to be legalized...  That is not just a good idea, it is a necessity.  Oh, and for all of you who think that this will change the status of the ladies... think again, it will not.  They will still be treated with disrespect, by many who would do well to take lessons from some of the more talented and gifted providers.

Outing a provider?  Outing a hobbiest?  I view both as bad.  Saying 'Hi' to an acquaintance on the street, well, lets just say, I probably would if I recognized em! lol....   seriously, the things written on this board, need to be "phrased" such as to not provide a specific link to a specific person, place or time of an event.  Even if this were legal, rule would still apply.  

WRT ladies, I expect, that for their own personal safety, someone knows where they are and with whom they are meeting....   or, at the very least, until they are safe, there is a way for LE to investigate should something unexpected happen.  I like too many of the ladies that I have met, and would be really upset should they be hurt - by anyone.

Do they have GOOFY pictures and stuff????

Thank You