A provider is not going to be LE.
Your mention of showing skin or touching sensitive areas, and getting comfortable, to refers to techniques, I believe, that johns may use with streetwalkers. I couldn't tell you anything about that activity. Never done it. Never will.
If you are thinking about paid companionship, then what you are asking is how to determine if a woman is a provider or is LE posing as a provider in a sting, then here is a bit of advice.
-Do not meet a woman face-to-face until you have verified she is a provider. If you get in the presence of female LE posing, it is to late. You will be arrested.
-Do not break the law. Do not ask for sexual activity, or even discuss sex in any way. Even using euphemisms or code words. LE will talk about sex. Providers won't. (OK. OK. Maybe naive, or careless one might. Avoid them.)
-Do not respond to ads that reference money and acts together EVEN IF SUPER SECRET SPY CODE WORDS are used. e.g. "VIP Parking is 50 additional watermelons" LE does not need the female to be posing on this one. As soon as you and that "provider" are together, you both can be arrested.
-Seek out companions that offer their time only, and are well reviewed.
That last sentence is the long and the short of it. Just like "natural selection" will thin out the herd of the weaker specimens... Guys who do not follow that advice, put themselves at much greater risk of running afowl of the law.
Not to be insultive or condescending, but the nature of your question make me wonder 'Are you serious?','Is this a troll post?', 'Are you even a hobbyist?','Are you a complete newb?' Reseaching providers is very easy and becomes somewhat obvious once you spend some time doing it.
Educated people in "the hobby" do not break the law. LE is out there trying to arrest anyone they can. They are allowed to lie, cheat, manipulate, and do all sorts of stuff to trick you. They are very smart. They talk amongst themselves. They monitor CL, BP, and all sorts of internet sites. They can even have sex with you "in the line of duty" and then arrest you, in some places.
Do your research and it will be very obvious who the LEGAL and genuiune escorts are.
More importantly, if you can PROVE to them that you are a SAFE, LEGITIMATE client, you will probably have a great time!
HalfHour
With all the LE talk can someone please tell the best way for the hobbiest to verify that a provider is not LE? Is showing skin or touching sensitive areas enough these days? WHat is the best way for both parties to get comfortable as soon as possible?
Limit your hobby activities to well reviewed ladies. The number of reviews the lady should have is debatable. Check the reviewers history. A few reviews by experienced hobbyist is good enough for me. If you're relatively inexperienced you might want a few more reviews, but that's your decision. Bottom line if you find yourself in a room with LE your toast. I would not wait until I was in a room with an escort to check if she is LE.
BTW, I've never had an experienced escort perform an LE check on me in the room. The ladies all screen me by asking for references and then check me out.
A provider is not going to be LE.
Your mention of showing skin or touching sensitive areas, and getting comfortable, to refers to techniques, I believe, that johns may use with streetwalkers. I couldn't tell you anything about that activity. Never done it. Never will.
If you are thinking about paid companionship, then what you are asking is how to determine if a woman is a provider or is LE posing as a provider in a sting, then here is a bit of advice.
-Do not meet a woman face-to-face until you have verified she is a provider. If you get in the presence of female LE posing, it is to late. You will be arrested.
-Do not break the law. Do not ask for sexual activity, or even discuss sex in any way. Even using euphemisms or code words. LE will talk about sex. Providers won't. (OK. OK. Maybe naive, or careless one might. Avoid them.)
-Do not respond to ads that reference money and acts together EVEN IF SUPER SECRET SPY CODE WORDS are used. e.g. "VIP Parking is 50 additional watermelons" LE does not need the female to be posing on this one. As soon as you and that "provider" are together, you both can be arrested.
-Seek out companions that offer their time only, and are well reviewed.
That last sentence is the long and the short of it. Just like "natural selection" will thin out the herd of the weaker specimens... Guys who do not follow that advice, put themselves at much greater risk of running afowl of the law.
Not to be insultive or condescending, but the nature of your question make me wonder 'Are you serious?','Is this a troll post?', 'Are you even a hobbyist?','Are you a complete newb?' Reseaching providers is very easy and becomes somewhat obvious once you spend some time doing it.
Educated people in "the hobby" do not break the law. LE is out there trying to arrest anyone they can. They are allowed to lie, cheat, manipulate, and do all sorts of stuff to trick you. They are very smart. They talk amongst themselves. They monitor CL, BP, and all sorts of internet sites. They can even have sex with you "in the line of duty" and then arrest you, in some places.
Do your research and it will be very obvious who the LEGAL and genuiune escorts are.
More importantly, if you can PROVE to them that you are a SAFE, LEGITIMATE client, you will probably have a great time!
HalfHour
very good advice.
90% of the risk however is with the companion.
Chandler is very active the last few weeks. Reports undercover gets naked bust team comes in with guns and handcuffs naked even if nothing improper said.
Companions busted for GFE or other words in ads without even meeting LE in person. Tent city in 110 is not nice and mandatory jail term on first offense in all of AZ. Have to protect the public from beasts vs real criminals with guns that go bang.
This is the U.S. where unlike most all the rest of the world we do not have the same sexual freedoms enjoyed for in private consenting adult activities the rest of the world enjoys.
ONLY PAY FOR TIME, never anything sexual in the U.S.
I'm a newbie, and if I ever do get into the "hobby", I would only take my chances if the provider had a website up (and I mean a domain website, not one of those free "basic format" pages.)
I'm hoping a domain page and lots of reviews would be enough to feel safe. (Because why would a PD go through the wasted appropriations to purchase a web domain and post "sock" reviews? With revenues dwindling, doing stings to take violent or drug criminals off the street would be a better priority.)
Because it’s less dangerous to bust providers that violent criminals and drug dealers.
They don’t carrier guns.
Yes sting web sites and fake reviews have been used in Phoenix by LE. Not often but has been done per reports I get.
Also realize reviews from a certain site filled an evidence book in a case where the agency and almost 100 folks pled guilty to being part of a criminal enterprise implicating a certain site that they used extensively.
Fortunately we still have free speech rights and sites as shown recently by the CL legal issues seem safe as far as their owners unless directly tied to criminal enterprise... as in the TBD case a few years ago. Unconfirmed but credible reports that LE actually seized control of the site for a period of time.
Such a waste of LE resources chasing breasts and providing in my view something very beneficial to a culture. Studies show the most sexually repressive society's are also the most violent.
The repressiveness in Phoenix goes back decades including when they outlawed swing clubs to protect neighborhoods and children...
I loved the TV report done at the old Club C (I was on the committee that met with the City etc) panning the parking lot in the industrial area trying to find where all these neighborhoods and children were that were at risk from what went on behind closed doors in a private swing club.
We also have in Scottsdale the "Christian" group headquarters that helps cities across America "protect children and neighborhoods" from sexual freedoms by getting more and more restrictive laws passed.
At least Scottsdale voters stood up and rejected the six foot rule for strip clubs a few years ago.
Hiddenhills and Dave have given great advice, and not much more for me to add. You're best off seeing well-reviewed women. Period. If you're new at this, stick with the sure ones. That is what TER is for. Why take a chance?
Now, those who know me, know that I have taken quite a few chances in the last 2 years, seeing several new girls in the area and writing reviews. (I just did a brief check and found that I have written more than 20 reviews which were the first ones for that lady in just the last 18 months alone. Whew!) TOFTT has gotten to be a habit for me, and I have developed some skills and intuitions during this time, but even I know that I am taking a chance whenever I see someone new. So, if you really insist on doing that (and I am NOT encouraging you to do so!), here is some advice:
1) You do NOT pay for sex. I have never paid for sex in my life, not once. What I have done is paid for a lady's time, and sometimes (not always -- that is also what TER is for...) that has led to a nice time. Sometimes a VERY nice time. But you never set a price for a sexual act. EVER. If you're talking on the phone with someone you have not seen, and she says something like 'it will be $X extra for Y' (GFE or greek or whatever), then just hang up and do not call again. If you see her, then you have implicitly accepted her offer of doing something sexual for money. And THAT is illegal. Period. You're busted, if she is LE.
If she discusses anything sexual at all before money changes hands, then hang up, get out, get GONE. All you are paying for is TIME, and if there is ever any discussion of anything beyond spending X minutes of time together, then a line has been crossed. If you follow that rule, then even if it is LE, you should be OK, in principle. (But you have to be careful about the wording of the ad you read. If it is explicit, then its best not to call at all. If you do, and you identify yourself as having seen it, then you might implicate yourself.)
2) When you see the person, you can do the 'LE check'. This is not 100% fool-proof. I usually ask them if they are a member of a law enforcement agency, and ask them to state explicitly if they are or not, before I have said anything else or given any money. (I will do the same first to put them at ease.) I think that if they tried to bust you after that, you would have a legal angle, and they would not bother to prosecute, knowing that they could not make it stick. But remember, this is NOT 100% safe. The cops can ALWAYS arrest you if they want.
3) If they do try to arrest you, then follow the advice given before. Say NOTHING at all. Except for this: 'I refuse to answer any questions without my lawyer present'. (Everyone repeat after me...) Thankfully, I have not had to experience this myself. But I do have a lawyer, just in case, which leads me to the last point...
4) Get a lawyer now. So, if I need to make that call, you will know who to call. If you wait until you need one, its too late.
Like everything you read here, take my advice with the proper grain of salt. Hope it helps!
-Ned
Asking if they are LE is worthless. They can not lie and is no legal grounds to help you. Its a totally worthless question as are disclaimers on websites.
My advice is as a customer offer the gal a nude massage. Of course this is what I enjoy doing anyway (prof trained in Esalen and great way to get acquainted). There is nothing illegal about being nude together nor the customer giving the companion nude massage.
For most depts the undercover getting nude is against policy as well as doing anything else. Years ago Sheriff Joe's cases were all tossed because his deputies got nude and had some contact.
Sadly some homes and cash were taken however under RICO even with all charges dropped.
I hear Chandler narcotics (they don't have vice cops but use narcs) are getting nude however. But of most police dept this would be "out of policy" from what I understand.
There is some great advice in this entire thread. It is great to see information shared.
Since the OP is about LE CHECKS, being safe, and avoiding arrest, I think this bears repeating:
-- LE CHECKS ARE WORTHLESS --
Live by that understanding. Do not rely on them for safety.
We could discuss subtle technicalities (but I don’t know how that helps), debate statute law vs. case law (we’re not lawyers, I’m not anyway), or talk about LE Department's policies and practices (those vary from agency to agency and change over time) However, sometimes those details start to drift away from the original point
The OP’s presented scenario seems to be:
You find yourself alone in a room alone with a woman you believe to be a provider. You are not 100% certain of that fact. She may be LE. This may be a sting. You want to avoid arrest.
Relevant points of the scenario and what to do
If you are face-to-face with undercover LE and the arrest has not already begun, she will be attempting to get to say or do something incriminating in order to arrest you..
RULE NUMBER 1 - To avoid arrest, DO NOT BREAK THE LAW.
i.e. * Do not solicit her for a sex act. * Do not discuss anything sexual. * Do not offer her money for anything. * Do not expose yourself. * Do not discuss money. * Do not speak using code words. (The very act of using hobby euphemisms may give undercover what they need to arrest you, even if the charges do not stick.)
When you are face-to-face with undercover LE and you have not been arrested, to them 'the game' has begun and you need to know what you are up against, and who you are dealing with.
The female undercover officer has training using intelligent and cunning methods that are proven to work. She will not be working alone. She will have already decided how far she will go, in the way of a touch or a show of skin, to relax your guard. She will have already discussed this with her backups, who are listening and possibly watching. She will have a code phrase that will start the bust.
In their minds, they know you are there to break the law. To them, the written laws have annoying technicalities that they must work around in order to arrest you. They are willing to get as close to entrapment as they can get away with, because it will not harm them even if they go a little to far.
Remember, she can go further in her speech and actions legally than you can in order to arrest you.
So, she might touch you. She might let you touch her. She might flash some skin. i.e. She might use LE CHECKS!
We should be perfectly clear right now about another important point
Regarding asking if someone a member of a law enforcement agency, and asking them to state explicitly if they are or not...
-- LE WILL LIE TO YOU --
-- IT IS COMPLETELY LEGAL FOR LE TO LIE --
-- YOU HAVE NO DEFENSE AGAINST LIES TOLD BY LE --
Telling lies is a legal LE tool. They are trained to do it. They practice it. They do it well. Undercover LE will never indentify themselves as LE unless they are arresting you. If uniformed LE MAKES the arrest, then undercover may not even be identified as such.
So…
She will tell you she in not LE. If you ask her if she is, she will lie and deny it. She may turn that around on you and ask you if you are LE. She may say 'PROVE IT!, trying to get you to do something, anything, that her team can base the arrest on.
(You might think you are clever, and whip out your little friend to prove her wrong.
Bad move! They will add a criminal charge for that, whether it sticks or not.)
She might then ask you to get comfortable, and walk out while you get naked. Now you are vulnerable, and excited and will start talking about sex, thinking all is ok.
But whatever she does, you can count on this: She and her team have had pre-sting meetings with a Deputy County Attorney(s) and have discussed EXACTLY how far she will go in order to take you off guard. If she volunteered to 'go further' than you expect, and both LE & PA Depts. agreed to her actions, you will be at a big disadvantage to say the least. (PA=Prosecuting Attorney)
At the face-to-face point in the scenario, DAVEPHX’s suggestion is the best I have ever seen. Why? There is nothing illegal about massage, and in recipient being in the nude actually a standard. The female undercover, her backup and her department are not going to subject her to that experience while they wait to see if you do the wrong thing.
Keep in mind that LE is a very machismo, patriarchal subculture. The unmarried male might be ready to engage in sex to fight crime, but the female would never be allowed to, even if she was willing, which is VERY doubtful. Likewise, the PA culture would not 'put a female officer at risk' by clearing such an operation.
So if you offer her a massage and she declines….well.
If you ask me, the OP scenario presented is too close to a Kobayashi Maru test (STAR TREK’s infamous no-win scenario that was part of the Star Fleet training.) You must think you are James Tiberius Kirk if you put yourself in that situation to begin with.
Remember who you are dealing with and what they are trying to do. We are talking about arrest here, not conviction.
One of LE’s newer strategies is that as long as they arrest a man, it will cause him so many problems, that other men will be discouraged against trying. After all, most guys are on there own and are neither educated nor street savvy about the issues involved. LE is content to destroy your marriage, your family, your career, and your life, even if they can’t get a conviction. They think they are on the side of good. They think you deserve whatever you get.
Using the Star Trek analogy, I have to ask - Do you want to into uncharted territory, by yourself with no away-team, outside the safety of Federation space, possibly up against an entire team of armed savvy Romulans, who are planning to ambush and destroy you, just for the opportunity to have sex with a girl you have never seen? Do you really?
Capt Kirk may be brave, but he’s no fool.
-------------------------------------------------------
By the way, in a related point:
-- IT IS ILLEGAL TO TELL A LIE TO LE. --
-- NEVER LIE TO LE. EVER. --
Better yet, follow the advice given in #3 (and 4!) by spamdog. It is perhaps the most valuable of all.
Yeah, I should have been much more explicit in my advice. Not only are LE checks not 100% foolproof, they may be completely useless in a legal sense. I just don't know. I mainly do them to get a feeling for the lady I am with. Sure, if she says she's not a cop, she might still be one, but I have a pretty good ability to tell if someone is lying to me. I still want to hear her say it. Its all part of my process for feeling her out. If I got a bad feeling (has never happened so far), I would just leave.
The main point are the other things I mentioned -- don't ever link money to sex, and if the cops come in, don't say ANYTHING without your lawyer present. If you give them nothing, they can still arrest you, but they probably won't be able to make it stick. The PA (prosecuting attorney) has to make choices on who to prosecute in a world of limited resources. Don't make yourself the low-hanging fruit! Make your case a nightmare for them, with low probability of success. If you never linked money to sex, and you did not incriminate yourself, they'll likely drop you to prosecute the poor idiots who did. LE is like most people -- they're lazy, and they'll go for the easy cases, and drop the hard ones. If you do everything right, your case will be one of the hard ones. That's the best you can do.
If you want to avoid even the possibility, then see well-reviewed ladies. (Why not? There are plenty!) And just let someone else take the chance on the new ones...
Lastly, for those curious about 'getting a lawyer' -- its easy and free. Just find a criminal defense attorney with a good rep, and who has experience in these types of cases. Contact them and ask them if they could be your lawyer, in case you ever need. Unless they are over-worked, they will say yes. (Who would say no to a potential client?) You don't have to pay anything or go into any details (i.e. don't say WHY you might need them! ); they don't start working for you until you have a case. But then you have someone to call. It gives you some peace of mind. And if you ever need to make that call, you'll be prepared.
Well reviewed providers? That is just a marketing tool. Lots of tasty girls without a single review.
A review from someone you do not know is just an ad.
It is really easy to pick out real girls from fake girls.
This also works for scams.
Just find a girl who has an ad you like. If you see her around in a few months then not much chance she is a cop or a scam.(Same thing).
But if you find yourself with a weird bitch. Keep your mouth shut.
I have heard on the LA board long ago of cops having websites and multiple reviews.
So always go with your gut feelings. If your scared don't go. Just send a cancel text. The response from the cancel will tell you a lot.
Very good point Rick.
Some of the best gems sometimes are less experienced, less reviewed, often more affordable gals. But one must be careful.
Just like many companions tell me they get lots of crap and ignorance from guys on certain sites but also with good screening get good clients.
Another problem is LE will often use well known gals as friends or as references betting when setting up a companion betting they won't check or the referenced companion will not have good records and simply won't remember if met or not.
All this LE effort to go after what is legal almost everywhere with no big issues except the U.S.
The key as often repeated here is never talk about sex acts for money only time. And companions have huge risk for a solicitation bust for using GFE or any other "code" words on their site. Jury's have convicted as in a well known gal in Scottsdale who took it to trial and lost when all she did was use GFE on her website.
Its pointless to and actually more of a risk in my point of view. Asking a girl or a girl asking a guy if they are LE is so ridiculously pointless and kinda incriminates you already. "Entrapment" is when a cop lies to make somebody do something they wouldn't usually do. We all know that we usually do this sort of thing so we do not fall into that category at all. I do not do LE checks- I find it highly inappropriate to have a guest walk into my place and before any chit chat be grabbing at each other. It might one day get me screwed out of money but my key plan to keep me out of a silver bracelet is to fail to acknowledge or accept the money until the appointment is over w/ ZERO talk about money. Into the well reviewed issue, girls with two plus pages of decent reviews can usually sure you a great time. That being said, I currently hold a few pages of reviews within one year of being reviewed. I had been around a year before my first review, offering the same level of service just no reviews. So yes you can see a non reviewed girl and have a good time. You just put yourself more at a risk to get ripped off or have a bad time.
But one fatal flaw. A police officer undercover does not have to tell you the truth about whether they are "a law enforcement agent . . ." the United States Supreme Court ruled ages ago that police officers are permitted, in fact, encouraged, to lie in the pursuit of their undercover work. That means they can lie about their name, their LE affiliation and can even solicit you for sex. No. It's not entrapment unless "a reasonably prudent person" in the same position would have done the same thing you did. Not very many men/women are a jury are going to think that that $100 blow job, or "3 Rose" for an hour of her "time" are something that a reasonably prudent person would do.
If a cop offers you $1 million and to pay off your mortgage, then maybe you've got an entrapment argument.