Phoenix

Phoenix vs. Zurich
cruiserx 3 Reviews 604 reads
posted
1 / 8

A question for both hobbyists and providers...

But first a story:
I've traveled to Europe for work a bunch of times.  One time when I was in Zurich (Switzerland), my business colleague was telling me about where the best restaurants, tourist stuff, etc. was during my stay there.  He then told me exactly who the best PROVIDERS are in the city and where to find them.  A lit bit taken aback, I asked him does he share this with everyone?  He said of course, they are much more open in Europe about it, but that it's a legal and highly regulated/highly taxed system.

So my question to all the hobbyists and providers is, which of the following would you really prefer if we could choose:

(A) Phoenix system, where everything is UTR and law enforcement issues are about being caught, but # of hobbyists is more and costs are lower

(B) Zurich system, where everything is open, there's no law enforcement issues to worry about, but everything is 30-50 percent more expensive because of taxes and regulations (so that there are only high paying richer hobbyists)

I'm curious to hear what people really think.

baileym365 See my TER Reviews 474 reads
posted
2 / 8

I love love love Europe and it's openess with sexuality.  The laws with taxes change with different territories and cities though along with the ladies in the business, since it is legal there's a lot more sex workers.

Sadly americans are too uptight and this industry wil never be legal here

hugh9118 12 Reviews 600 reads
posted
3 / 8

Your post raises dozens of interesting questions. I lived in Zurich for a number of years, and spent a lot of time working throughout Europe and Asia, so can offer some perspective.
Simple answer—any system that tries to put activities that have significant demand totally outside the law will be much worse, because it inevitably creates a corruption problem much nastier than the social ills caused by the banned activity. The corruption can take many forms (LE payoffs, political hypocrisy, etc) but the corruption always involves exploitation by more powerful folks, such as pimps, cops, organized crime and politicians. This dynamic can be found in a wide range of activities, most of which have nothing to do with sex (alcohol, drugs, gambling, immigration, abortion, etc, etc), and is largely impossible to change because those powerful folks don’t want it changed.
No it is incredibly unusual for Europeans to greet visitors with detailed info about the local sex trade, just as they wouldn’t greet visitors with maps showing abortion clinics or the bars frequented by drug dealers or where you can find organized all night poker tournaments. But anyone readily interested in these services can, with modest effort, get the info they need, although the exact way they are organized may not be immediately intuitive to an overseas visitor. Just because Europeans realize that US-style prohibition is stupid and counter-productive doesn’t mean they want commercial sex activities totally out in the open. Only two European cities (Amsterdam and Hamburg) have openly embraced their red light districts, and both are much less enthusiastic than they used to be. Every country uses a different mix of restrictions and regulations designed to (a) limit the overall size of commercial sex trade (b) isolate it geographically in order to reduce visibility (c) minimize the real public health and exploitation risks (STDs, pimping, human trafficking, etc).
It is not heavily taxed in the sense that some countries place huge taxes on cigarettes or liquor or luxury imports. Sex workers have “regulatory compliance costs” that they need to pass on to their customers. As these cover the costs of things like rigorous STD testing, and licencing/reporting designed to help police fight rip-offs and exploitation, customers should be damn happy to be absorbing these costs. My strong sense is that the “high prices” you saw in Zurich were mostly just your reaction to dollar-Euro exchange rates and the high cost of living in European cities compared to US sunbelt. If you’d spent any time in Zurich supermarkets you would have seen an even bigger price gap versus what you food costs in Phoenix. But a couple other factors also affect prices.
Lots of variations by country, but in simple terms the European system pulls low-end, high-volume girls (what you’d see here in Phoenix as streetwalkers or the bulk of Craigslist/Backpage posters) into red-light district or brothel settings. But this reduces supply, because it cuts out girls who aren’t serious about the business. Street and Backpage prices can be depressed by girls who are clueless/utterly desperate/drug addicted etc. Although much has moved to the internet, higher price points in the sex trade were historically channeled through sex clubs of various forms, which made things easier for customers but added to costs.
It is not that “Europeans” are sexual libertines and more than “Americans” are repressed prudes. It is more that Europeans (socially conservatives and liberals alike) reject the notions that adult activities should not be banned just because some find them distasteful, and that enjoyable activities between consenting adults should not be totally unregulated, because there will be public health and other impacts that need to be addressed. No system will ever be perfect but, yes, eliminating the legal risks and corruption makes the European approach far superior.

cruiserx 3 Reviews 519 reads
posted
4 / 8
azvictoria See my TER Reviews 1539 reads
posted
5 / 8

another great post from HUGH  lots of great info thank you so much I know it takes a  lot of time and effort to sit down and share this with us  hugs  Victoria

Tufu 2 Reviews 668 reads
posted
6 / 8

A lot of what Hugh says pertains to Western Europe, which in many ways is like the United States, although its more "de jure" vs. "de facto." It's more freewheeling and cheaper in Eastern Europe, however. A great many women from EU countries in the East, like Poland or Slovakia, do move west for money, and some of them become top girls. But if you go to Poland itself, you'll find lots of women at very reasonable prices. It's very prevalent there, though there is very little on the street. Freeways, that's a different story.

But if you go into non-EU countries, like Ukraine and Russia, you'll find cheaper prices (outside Moscow and Kiev) and a lot more corruption--gangsters have been running the industry for years. It's also much more visible in hotels; it was not unusual for me to get a call after I checked into a room asking me if I wanted some "company." Overall, it's very pervasive. I don't know how much has changed in the past few years, but when I was there,  if you could not find a woman in Russia, you were more than just not looking--you were deliberately looking the other way.

hugh9118 12 Reviews 409 reads
posted
7 / 8

Yes, the situation in places like Eastern Europe can be rather different. The prices in Russia may seem reasonable to an American or a Western European, but remember that organized crime (and cops and other on chain of corruption) are taking a huge cut, and the lady providing the service is only getting a tiny portion of what you think the "price" is. And wherever organized crime is involved, you can be sure that a sizeable percentage of the women have been dragooned into the business by mobsters keen to increase cash flow. Exploitation that would be nearly impossible if the sex trade was legal and sex workers had normal access to police protections. Unfortunately you can't really rationalize commercial sex in those sitations as a private transaction between consenting adults. If you pay for sex, you are feeding the corruption. In the same way that a cocaine purchase feeds the corruption throughout the drug supply corridors.

I don't recall places like Poland having organized crime problems similar to Russia. The low prices there are a combination of exchange rates and the lower local standard of living. Prices are set by the lower levels the locals can afford to pay and by the lower levels needed to house and feed your family. In Southeast Asia you not only have the huge disparity between the local economy and US/EU economic standards, but you have humongous economic gaps between the big cities and the countryside (glittering Bangkok/Shanghai/Manila vs rural peasantry). Some exploitation of the girls but mostly the "powerful bosses versus entry level workers" variety, not the organized crime "we've confiscated your passport and will burn down your father's house unless you meet your financial quota" type. Oddly, prostitution has become critical to these rural communities, which couldn't survive without the money the girls wire back home to their families.

Basic point--anyone who thinks the moral and political issues surrounding the sex trade are simple is a fool, and you can't begin to talk about those issues unless you ask a lot of questions about how the economics of the trade actually work. Question #1--where does the money actually go?




Posted By: Tufu
A lot of what Hugh says pertains to Western Europe, which in many ways is like the United States, although its more "de jure" vs. "de facto." It's more freewheeling and cheaper in Eastern Europe, however. A great many women from EU countries in the East, like Poland or Slovakia, do move west for money, and some of them become top girls. But if you go to Poland itself, you'll find lots of women at very reasonable prices. It's very prevalent there, though there is very little on the street. Freeways, that's a different story.

But if you go into non-EU countries, like Ukraine and Russia, you'll find cheaper prices (outside Moscow and Kiev) and a lot more corruption--gangsters have been running the industry for years. It's also much more visible in hotels; it was not unusual for me to get a call after I checked into a room asking me if I wanted some "company." Overall, it's very pervasive. I don't know how much has changed in the past few years, but when I was there,  if you could not find a woman in Russia, you were more than just not looking--you were deliberately looking the other way.

Tufu 2 Reviews 747 reads
posted
8 / 8

Just to add to your point, I don't remember personally seeing any women in Russia or Ukraine who were drafted into the sex trade. Sex trafficking is a problem, but it is mostly in the transfer of women from the east to the west. The women were is such poverty in Russia that they chose to be prostitutes, though I didn't meet many who were happy about it. And if you moved out of the big cities, prices dropped considerably.

My experience in Poland was that women were free to come and go, which they did; prices were determined by the overall lower cost of living, as you pointed out. Even with a low exchange rate at the time, sex was ridiculously cheap; and from what I have seen from the Internet, it still is.

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