I should have probably addressed this issue
a few days ago when it started to brew, but I am a brooder who likes to think on things a bit, take in other's opinions, and try to make decisions that work best in the long term.

Here's the dilemma that's been on my mind, I understand the provider's and agency's concern over CL girls on 411 being a safety concern. Believe me I am NO fan of CL advertising mainly for the lack of initial checks & balances that can sometimes breed the sexual exploitation of minors and other serious problems we've seen here in Phoenix. Many of the problems we've seen here have also been reported in other parts of the country.

But I'm also cognoscente of the fact that some popular providers on my site came from CL too. In fact a lot come to my site specifically seeking asylum from CL. Others still advertise there from time to time because they evidently know how to gleam gold from a turd mine. I would surely hate to think I stood in anyone's way in
advancement from CL, and to the later group....I feel like who the hell I am I to dictate where they can or can't advertise?.

But it seems a decision on my part is needed because obviously it's become an issue now. Even though any decision I make is not going to please everyone. That said, my decision is that from here on out, anyone advertising on CL will not be able to advertise on 411 concurrently. If they wish to escape CL they will have to stop advertising there once they are on 411. This I believe should satisfy the needs of my current
advertiser's desire for less safety/security risks while not denying any provider seeking an escape from CL.

I think this is about as fair as I can make it folks and the only way I can continue to feel good about what I am doing.

In closing, I would like to thank you all for voicing your concerns on this issue. I deeply appreciate your caring enough about my site to post your insights and debate them in thoughtful manner.

-Glen

Glen:
I guess im no longer a CL POSTER.. Drats that breaks my heart!  LOL!!!

My earlier post indicated that it was just a Venue anyways, and that I always double checked references and said no more than yes from that site, BUT your site is far more important to me!

Glad this subject is ending..

And you know Jordan and I and Tina have the titties you like! Smother yourself thrice!!

-- Modified on 10/10/2006 4:30:14 AM

removing anyone from 411 for any reason. You've worked hard to build credibility as the "gold standard" here and I respect any/all actions you take specific to protecting that hard earned trust.

My post below was directed to the removal of 411 from TER itself...which I do not understand. Why should someone else make a bad decision when valid info did/does exist in the system. My only possible concern specific to your site is the possibility your current client base is exerting influence thats aimed at minimizing compitition in the name of "safety". I appreciate your well thought out policy and the fact that you took the time to explain your position.

Thanks.

some of the gals, like Diana (from above post) have been around for a long time and is an honest provider, I think they should be allowed to post an advertisement.

Did not all this start hoopla start from some not so well reviewed providers from CL advertising on your site?

Should it not be only when a provider is well established in the community that she be able to get on your site? and not a one time review from a one time reviewer.


There seem to be a lot more well established providers like AzMisty, Diana and maybe more that have advertised there and do like it...
I hate to see them go from your site.

-- Modified on 10/10/2006 9:43:29 AM

Not that I am a fan of Craigslist. But I do believe in free enterprise. Why limit a persons ability to market themselves...What's the purpose of TER? I check craigslist girls against TER, CER, and the Big Dog. thats why we have review sites right?

I could be wrong but this smells like polotics. In most cases craigslist gals are young hot and cheap!!! The reality of it is you can find a very attractive girl for a little bit of money. And not all hobyist have deep pockets

And yes there have been rare occations when minors were exploited. but this is in my estimation rare. If you take time to read through craigslist. It is  pretty obvoius they do a reasonable job of policeing thmeselves(However there seems to be a lot of racism at times?)

My opinion...Glenn keep makin money my-man if a girl from craigslist wants to advertise on your site let her as long as she is legit!

Eros, CityVibe, and Open Adult Directory, are just as bad as craigslist if not worse in terms of questionable talent and rip-offs Are we going to remove all gals that advertise on those sites as well as PHX411? When I fisrt got started in this business I have had more rip offs and bad service from girls from eros and Cityvibe than I ever did from craigslist

No....the diffrence is they dont care and the owner of Phoenix 411 is taking control of his site and caring.I applaud him...

stands for quality service oriented providers who maintain standards of excellence.  I have known Glenn a while and consider him a great friend....this is a tough situation for him.......

I think Glenn more than most advertising venues really cares about the Providers in this community and their well being...yet he knows for a provider to "upgrade" and leave CL they have to have a place to start........

His prior standard of a provider having to have a minimum number of reviews and a current 411 provider vouch for them is and was a good one...

Hopefully, that will remain the standard for 411.net......

Thanks Glen for all you do for our little community....

what I'm saying is that manyh of us have had more issues from eros and cityvibe... than have had on craigslist yet  I dont hear an uproar about those sites? we do not remove girls from 411 that advertise in both phx411 and/or eros but yet we do on craigslist?

I advertise on Cityvibe,411,and Eros and I have yet to get bashed,see minors,or hear any pimp stories..Craigslist I do!! what a nightmare.Very low class

You need to keep some historical perspective. Before PHX411 eros & phoenix-exotics were the big sites...and known for the rip-offs. Glenn has made a huge positive impact by being proactive with regard to quality control.

If we look at PHX411 i'd say 100% of the gals are "legit"...however a suprising amount of very few or zero reviews on TER (or elsewhere). So its possible for a gal with a "no review" policy to be on 411.

What I do find curious is that Danielle with a number of reviews (mostly "mixed" like mine) would be booted. She certainly wasnt a ripoff, but I agree if she has a pimp thats a possible major issue. In the original thread the alias "alan greenspan" is clearly indicating an economic basis . Since this is 99% a provider alias its pretty clear that your underlying issue is simply economic IMO. My feelings on that are mixed, since I frequent the higher end options I benifit knowing that 411 is a well policied set of options....however I'd prefer to see glenn keep the bar for admittence based on a reasonable performance standard...not an economic one. However glenn has every right to manage his site based on what he feels is right...and its certainly the best of its kind in the country IMO.

I for one do not like being the focus of drama and am sure this is not fun for you. Either way someone will be unhappy.

I think you have set the standards higher than other sites that advertise, such as Eros, City Vibe and CL. I stand behind any decision you make and hope this will be behind you soon!

~ Carlee

the issue I believe is that some recent gals added to the site were not up to the standards of 411. I truly believe in those standards and in fact, believe that maybe the answer is to raise those standards to more reviews and more references from other established providers not dictate where a gal can or cannot advertise/post.  

My issue is that I for one, I communicate with my clients thru CL as it is a site in which they can go at home or work without any questions or hassles.  So if I cannot do that and be on 411 why should I be punished because I like to stay in touch with my clients and have found a way to do so without either of us getting into any trouble.

I truly believe in keeping the standards high but Glen please reconsider and instead, focus on the new girls - not the already WELL established ones - and raise the requirements to having the privledge of being on 411.  

I know many girls post on CL (some will not admit it but they do or have) and as Diane stated, LE is everywhere and no matter the site we all need to be careful period.

Thanks for reading and Glen a big thank you to you for everything you have done.  But I ask you to reconsider and address the real issue.  

Misty

PS Let's get Tina and I together for you -wow now that is something you could get lost in - boob overload!!  Love ya!

Publicity is publicity...it's all about numbers...it's not personal...its just business GLEN.

No one has a right to dictate our lives, business or our rights...it's called FREEDOM.

This goes for both sides.  Everything was fine until now.  You will never please everyone so don't try.  Do what works for you and your business BEST.  If we let others dictate how we run our business it means compromise, loss and policeing new policies...a lot more work and negative energy...and many more will be upset.

First it will start with CL, then BP then whatever someone else doesn't like either.

So now if I decide I need extra work and do my normal promotions everywhere I have to eliminate CL or I can't be on 411.  No one else does it for a reason Glen and I am sure you will find out why they don't soon.  

How about this, playing devils advocate here, what if I use an alias?  How much time will you have to spend going over to CL to constantly police your site?  How much research will you have to do to find alias's?  How much money will you lose when you find out half of your site is on CL?

I really don't care for any politics on any site quite frankly, I care about my numbers, promotions, safety, reputation and integrity.  Mostly, I must be honest here, I care that my business thrives and makes me MONEY.  

If Glen made his policy an excutive decision, we will have to comply or leave.  If Glen gives in to outside inflences, the bickering will never end.  It looks bad when people think they are better then others.  It always comes back to bite your butt.

Don't forget Glenn, another site told us we couldn't post on CL and that site is  practically gone now.

Personally I run my business my way.  Since when did you care where I post?  There are many ways for you to screen and verify your ladies, just like we do our clients.  

If it works great now...don't mess with a good thang.

Just my opinion and two cents and not personally pointing at anyone.  I just thought Glen should think of some the potential repercutions of his actions.

Glen is a low stress guy and I love that about him.  You can do anything you choose Glen, please choose wisely...quantity or quality???

Good luck hun, isn't it great being the boss?

Candy
xoxox

I was on 411 before I ever knew that CL existed. I love the site and am very grateful to Glen for providing such a great site to advertise on and for such an affordable rate.

I advertise my business anywhere that I find that I can get GOOD clients from and I have found some great ones on CL. Many weren't even aware of places like 411, TER, TBD, etc. but they are now because I've 'educated' them. Most have found CL erotic after they had used CL to look for real estate, jobs, or the many other things CL lists.

Yes, there's a lot of 'riff-raff' on CL because of the annonimity of the posting there. The good guys I've found there are just as disgusted by it as we are. It's simple, you just ignore the jerks and BS and do your homework on the providers that advertise there. You would be doing a much greater service to the good providers and hobbyists and your site by allowing the providers with good reviews/reputations remain on your site to help these men do their homework. They need sites like yours that they can rely on to find good providers. They also need people like myself, Diana and others who are willing to put themselves on CL and help these guys find there way to the reputable sites and people ;o)

LE watches us here, there and EVERYWHERE so to worry about any one board/site more than others is IMHO foolish. We need to be 'aware' wherever we choose to advertise or discuss. If I hadn't found the clients that I've found there I would have left it alone but CL has served my needs very well so I'll be staying. I have never noticed any difference in LEs' interest in me or my shops.

I respect your decision Glen and will hate having to leave 411 but I can't feel right about having limits put on where I can advertise to remain on 411.

If you ever change your mind let me know and I'll be back with bells on!

Sorry Glenn, I have always hear great things about you but this is one I would have to dis agree with totally.  I think this came out of the
"another Craigs Bust" of 9/15/06 and had hoped it died there but I guess not.
  Its your site and your call but when you start
telling you customers who and who they can't advertize with,  even if they don't leave now I
think you have planted a seed that will grow a bitter fruit in the future. The ladies are the ones effected most by this and your effecting them in there most vonerable spot in a bad time of the year. They advertize for the same reason you do and I don't think you would like to be told where you could or could not advertize.  They have to make a payday just like you each month and it may mean paying the rent no matter which ad brought it in.  Telling someone how or who they will deal with, Well I think the ladies are going to surprise you some day for this.  Hope you will allow them to continue with 411 until there contract runs out.  I really hope you re-think this.

Sounds like we are agreeing on most points. Glenn most definatly has the right to do business with whomever he chossess, which makes our point It seems like he is getting preasure from some 411 providers/agency/hobbyist not to let craigslist girls on his site or not have the option to advertise on both sites because of past craigslist issues. If thats the case anyone who also advertise on ERO's and Cityvibe should be given the same options. Many guys I know in the hobby, including myself have experienced EROS, CITYVIBE and maybe even BACKPAGE(at times) are far more notorious for Rip offs and bad service just all around danger and uncertainty. Me myself I wont begain to even consider Eros an option.

I'm in the mindset as to say So What If she has a Pimp? Every Agency Owner out there is a Pimp, Husbands that encourage and/or know their wives are in the business are pimps, Boyfriends are pimps. Just like everything in life... you can have your good pimps(most agencies etc... on this board) or your bad pimps that not exploit the provider but the hobbyist ie...
AZ college girls (now going by another name)
Az OutCall
Az Call Girls

It sounds as if you are not sure if its a question of finacial. but ask yourself this. Why not Eros and CityVibe or Maybe even Open adult Directory? Is because many of these sites offer up website links? Is money being exchanged for link sharing? I don't know, I know money is being paid to get on some of those sites that are questionable. But hey I'm in to consperiacy theories

crystal was under age and was on all three sites (eros, cityvibe, backpage) The last gal that was underage ( The one that was kept in a cage) was also on eros. So again I dont understand the difference

Taking a provider off your site simply because she post on CL is unfair practice. Not all providers get the reads off of 411 as the main players do. If a provider chooses to post up on CL, it’s to shake the money tree a bit. They may have their needs such as rent, car payment, groceries or any number of things that they have to have meet.
If it is a security risk that you are concerned about, then you have a false sense of security. No one site is safe. All are subject to have some form of dishonesty. Those that pose that risk must simply be removed. Once a provider has proven to be a credibility issue then she should be removed & not allowed to be reinstated until she has proven to be trustworthy.
It’s a tough call to make & you are the one who is monitoring your site. You would know who the bad eggs are & who are the good ones.
The bottom line is just because someone has posted on 411,they wont get all the business they need. There are too many hobbyist schilling on the board for certain agencies that take attention away from the independents that do not have enough exposure. So then they resort to using CL because it’s quick & free.
I support the idea of having the CL providers seek asylum from the CL board. Let them get established first before you pull the plug.
There are many providers that are popular now that only had the Bachelor Beat to advertise on at one time. Then they got their break & someone gave them an opportunity to get on line. They became established, well spoken & creditable. They also forgot all those steps they took to get where they are & how hard they had to work to get where they are now, as well as those that tried to help them along the way.
Seems to me that maybe all the those who want the providers off 411 that post on CL concurrently, take a step back & remember that you yourself needed a break at one time in your life. Someone gave you your shot & you became successful.
Give someone else that same chance.

Not all CL providers are scam artist or rip offs. It is hard to weed through them all. The cream rises to the top eventually. Those that continue with the dishonest way of doing business end up fading out. Just my 2 cents
Thanks for listening.

Does this include providers who have been removed from TER and then changed their names to get back on?  Or just providers that are currently on bad terms?  Also, does this also apply to when a provider is working out of town? It sounds like it is going to turn into a big tattle tale party and poor Glen is going to have to listen to it all....