Breaking my own rule about two o/t threads on the same subject on the same page but Smelly's threads on Boston and NYC about the new terrorist threat got me thinking. Since the weekends are slow for posting anyway...

I'm not very PC (surprise, surprise but when do we get to the point when we take a step away from PC and say, "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few?"

I do not look suspiciously at every person that I meet who may be of Middle Eastern decent but on the other hand does it make sense that we are now looking closely at the breast milk of blonde causasian or asian woman? It sucks that people will look at you more suspiciously just because you are of Middle Eastern decent but why should we all have to go through the same scrutiny just for the sake of political correctness? In a culturally diverse world racial profiling is considered totally unacceptable. Certainly profiling happens during wartime and can easily be abused. The detainment of Japanese Americans during WWII is an example.

Having said that, why are we ALL subject to extra scrutiny at airport security check points? The day may come when terrorists are able to recruit cucasian or asian lactating woman as suicide bombers but until then can we use a little common sense here and narrow our search parameters a bit?

JMHO,

thirsty

Reo the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few?

Common sense needs to rule the day here. It is unfortunate that there will be good people of Middle Eastern decent that will be profiled, but what is the alternative?

It has always seemed somewhat absurd to have the 80-year-old blue-haired lady having her bags searched while the 25 year old Middle Eastern type walks right through.   The problem in my mind is not the inconvenience to the innocent--we all may have to just put up with it.   The problem is the use of limited resources.  

if we searched everyone as El Al did when I went to Israel it would be one thing.   But that would be very expensive and even more time-consuming.   But we are expending our limited resources in mining in areas which look empty.

By the way Thirsty, I have always been suspicious of those who board airplanes in wheelchairs, because they have the best shot at hiding what they are bringing aboard.  LOL

if we exclude certain groups from security measures doesn't that make us all less safe?

A number of those arrested here in London are Muslim convets.   I think they are all British-born.  How do you think it feels to know my fellow Brits have a desire to kill me.  It sucks.

And yes, I agree, the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.  Hence the increased security.

I know you're kidding but even after 911 for awhile they were more lax searching me in Boston than at other domestic airports. One of the things that TSA will do is take a swab at certain points on the wc to check for explosives. This wasn't always done to me in Boston up until a couple of years ago.

thirsty

P.S. I know the standards of security are different but I could sneak a nuclear device into Fenway.

Carrie, Even though they were British born they were of Muslim descent. All of the Al Quaida operatives have been Muslim.

they will fail.

Democracy is the common thread of American experience.   If we abandon it for convience, what does that say about us?

That being said, I thing about 1/2 of the security screening is pointless and is done more as a show, than anything else.

And remember, we do have home grown all American terrorists too.  Anyone remember Tim McVeigh?

That's the problem with this country these days. Don't want to upset anyone. Do you think the Talaban or Al Qaeda care who they piss off?  Take a look at the 911 hijackers. How many, or what percentage were muslum?

We are AT WAR people. Unless everyone wants to have everyone searched extensively along with all their baggage, we need to use racial profiling as a TOOL to combat terrorism.

I flew on the airlines about a year after 911 and what I saw going on was reverse racism, where minority TSA agents were pulling out caucasian passengers for further screening, not only through the usual security areas but also at the gates. I sat there and watched it happen time after time. How many older white women hijacked planes on 911?

Screw political correctness. We need to get the job done. If it was up to me, I'd pull all our troops out of everywhere around the world, build a wall around our borders, no one in, no one out.

Tell me this: what other country would let ILLEGAL immigrants come in to their country and demand free medical treatment at their hospitals, drivers licenses, welfare, etc.? See my next post.

Dear President Bush:

I'm about to plan a little trip with my family and extended family, and
I would like to ask you to assist me.

I'm going to walk across the border from the U.S. into Mexico, and I
need to make a few arrangements.

I know you can help with this.

I plan to skip all the legal stuff like visas, passports, immigration
quotas and laws.

I'm sure they handle those things the same way you do here.

So, would you mind telling your buddy, President Vicente Fox, that I'm
on my way over?

Please let him know that I will be expecting the following:

1. Free medical care for my entire family.

2. English-speaking government bureaucrats for all services I might
need, whether I use them or not.

3. All government forms need to be printed in English.

4. I want my kids to be taught by English-speaking teachers.

5. Schools need to include classes on American culture and history.

6. I want my kids to see the American flag flying on the top of the flag
pole at their school with the Mexican flag flying lower down.

7. Please plan to feed my kids at school for both breakfast and lunch.

8. I will need a local Mexican driver's license so I can get easy access
to government services.

9. I do not plan to have any car insurance, and I won't make any effort
to learn local traffic laws.

10. In case one of the Mexican police officers does not get the memo
from Pres. Fox to leave me alone, please be sure that all police
officers speak English.

11. I plan to fly the U.S. flag from my house top, put flag decals on my
car, and have a gigantic celebration on July 4th.

I do not want any complaints or negative comments from the locals.

12. I would also like to have a nice job without paying any taxes, and
don't enforce any labor laws or tax laws.

13. Please tell all the people in the country to be extremely nice and
never say a critical word about me, or about the strain I might place on
the economy.

I know this is an easy request because you already do all these things
for all the people who come to the U.S. from Mexico.

I am sure that Pres. Fox won't mind returning the favor if you ask him
nicely.

However, if he gives you any trouble, just invite him to go quail
hunting with your V.P.

Thank you so much for your kind help.

Any type of profiling that would help would be
done.  But it just doesn't work.

Here's an example excerpt from the linked page:

Fat White Guy said:

The randomness is because the lefty civil libertarians and ACLU freaks won't allow racial or any other kind of profiling.

Response:
That's because racial profiling is stupid and doesn't work. While you're busy stopping every Middle Eastern man coming through, one of their pregnant white girlfriends is coming on board loaded with plastic explosives. Don't believe me? That's how El Al (yup, them again) stopped a bomb from getting on board a flight in 1986. If they'd been profiling, they would have let the knocked-up Irish

OOPS.... Sorry, My mistake... I thought it some "P/C explosives",,, but now I can see it was just your saggy man-boobs... Please put your shirt back on.... PLEASE!



-- Modified on 8/11/2006 5:35:50 PM

They are usually trying to play grab-ass with the fat girls! Then when they get busted, they pretend their arms don't work! Sneeky Bastards!!

First and Foremost, Thirsty, I apologize for getting away from the point of this thread.  

Secondly, I wish I had an alias but I just have to say something in this matter of subject.

More importantly, One must not FORGET, what this country was and still to this day is built on Immigrants, looking for an opportunity.  I do believe that they should all become legal citizens and pay taxes (but would that make it difference with a large % of Americans not paying and evading taxes).  But before I let this go I have two questions for you 1.) Where is your family from? and 2.) Have you every tried to come to the USA legally, and denied because you do not know that right people from government officals to Ben Franklin and Roosvelt?  Needless to say, the government must find ways to assure that all illeagal immigrant become ligitmate citizens/residences. Unfortunately,  I do not believe sending all illegal immigrants back to there country would solve the problem.  It would only cause economic distress for small businesses. Hopefully, you can see the greater good in the issue.

-- Modified on 8/12/2006 4:41:26 AM

simple... to destropy all forms of western culture & democracy.

WE are at war &  IMO you don't fight a war with these terroists by not realizing what is @ stake and using any & all methods we can to win.

What's the alternative... think about it !!!!

Reo the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few?

In response to your qestion, Although it does not seem prudent to search 80 yr old white women at security points when all the while you are looking for middle eastern terrorists these new rules must be applied to everyone. If it means longer lines in airports so be it. If it cost more money so be it. What is the value a human life?
Personally I have beeen screaming about escalating terrorism for over 20 years. What does the date 10/23/83 mean to you? Most Americans could care less what took place on that Sunday morning, Just as many Americans will forget all about 9/11,
I fly a POW/MIA Flag which simply states "You Are Not Forgotten" (With Old Glory and The Marine Corps Flag)Although I am not a Vietnam Veteran, Those words should sum up all our opinions regarding attacks on our Country.
Currently we are in a fight for our exsistance, Yes this Country was built by immagration. Those immagrants came here for a better life for their children and asymlated to devlop the culture we have today. They became Americanized. Immagrants today don't want to be Americans they want (the majority of them)to rape our economic and social systems and return home to live like kings. You could find article advertisements in eastern europeon newspaper and hispanic news papers stating follow me to America learn how to take advantage of American social programs, get on welfare and on and on.
Ther are so many things wrong with America today, But yet there are still so many things right with it. Try living somewhere else in the world and find how quickly you'd would want to come back. Sorry to rant but it makes me so Damn mad to see what we have all worked for circling the drain quite possibly from within. And we do nothing but worry about Britney's next kid or who Julia is dating or married to or whatever.

This is not meant as a knock,  but rather something to think about and may make sense of my ravings. I don't know who said it but heard it in Parris Island.

Freedom has a certain flavor for one who fights for it, One the protected will never know.

Nobody asked.

You got it !
in the movie The Untouchables Sean Connery said it best. They put 1 of yours in the hospital. You put 10 of theirs in the Morgue!!!!

Yes this country was built from people immigrating to the USA, but they were LEGAL immigrants, not ILLEGAL ALIANS.

Turn the question around to another country. Can you just go to any country you please at will to live there? Try going into Canada. They make sure you have enough money to leave their country before going into their country.

I am not against legal immigrants. I am against ILLEGAL ALIANS who are bankrupting the US medical care systems, collecting welfare, not having auto insurance like the US laws require, etc.

Again, what other countries can you get away with all of this crap in?

My parents were both born in Ireland and came to this country legally. You make a valid point about many modern immigrants coming to the USA to take what they can and go back home. Having said that, tell me why we are searching old ladies and screening the breast milk of young women? If our nemesis was the IRA instead of Al-Queda I may not like it but I would understand and accept why I might draw more attention at airport security than a person of middle eastern decent. Now the day may come when Al-Queda is able to recriut lactating asian woman as suicide bombers. I am willing to give up certain freedoms in the name of security but let's use a little common sense.

thirsty

-- Modified on 8/12/2006 1:05:18 PM

Does this include racial profiling?

I was trying to not come right out and ask that question in my original post in this thread.

thirsty

Thirsty I agree that the current policies if searching white senior women in a pursuit of Islamic terrorists is stupid and counter productive. I have no problem with racial profiling in these situations. Of course being a white male why would I? Alas th Aclu would have a huge problem with it. It seems they always endup on the wrong side of the issue. They would bring suit and somehow extract a settle ment for the poor Muslims world wide cause we hurt their feelings. So in my opinion thats why we are all subject to these policies.

The patriot Act which can be viewed as a poor piece of legislsation was a knee jerk reaction to a terrible situation. To date no one has offered any improved ideas. Sure there are all kinds of "plans" offered by politicians, But do do you ever notice they never elaborate on the actual plan?

Personally I think the armed security should be on the plane. Not security guards that perform the screenings but traines Special Forces or Swat personel.

The bottom line is this, We are involved in the new Crusade, but not by white Christians, But by Muslims. They are intent on destroying anyone who does not pray their way. When I was in Lebanon in the 80's several Isalmic factions would continually fight with each other in whats best described as block wars. Killing each other claiming eacjh loves God more than the other. How do you reason with that?

 Thirsty, I too am willing to give up certain freedoms for saftey and yes with common sense. Just remember that locks keep out honest people

T

Your point on Tim is interesting.  But he was a loony-tune one-off.  Yes there will be others.  But when dealing with limited resources, concentrating on Muslims and those of mid-Eastern descent make the most sense.

Having uniformed armed security seerves no purpose as they can be quickly taken out at the beginning of an incident. Air marshalls can be one or multiple and where they are and who they are is not known. Have you seen any??

Obviously this is a hobby board first but we don't live in a vacuum. This is an issue that we're all dealing with so why can't we talk about it.

For those who like us to stay on topic, a provider contacted me today asking if she should cancel her travel plans because of the current situation. Ladies, are you thinking of staying local a bit more because of the extra hassle at the airports?

thirsty

as your "fellow Brits"...

In a recent poll of Muslims in 13 countries conducted by the Pew Global Attitudes Project, 81 percent of those surveyed in Britain said they considered themselves Muslims first and Britons second. That contrasts with Spain, where 69 percent of those surveyed considered themselves Muslims first and Spaniards second; Germany, where the comparable number is 66 percent, and even Jordan, with 67 percent.

From http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/13/world/europe/13muslims.html?ref=world

-- Modified on 8/13/2006 1:32:00 PM

Fresher examples than McVeigh are the Caucasians that were captured in Afganistan and the guy that tried to shoe bomb a Miami bound plane.
If racial profiling was used as a criteria, all would have been allowed to walk onto planes unchallenged if their dress and appearance was normal for their race. Anyone who thinks that terroist masterminds planning strikes against us does not realize this is being simplistic.
The issue of terrorism boils down to one central issue, a lust for power. Those that have that lust will use any means that present itself to achieve their goal.
My vote is check everyone, including the nice old grandmas. While the grandmas themselves are no threat, they can unwittingly accept packages from relatives that are terrorist plotters and carry those packages onto planes, ships or any other form of mass people transport.

Displays of raw emotion during periods of uncertainty accomplish nothing. If we allow racial profiling to happen instead of making it clear that everyone will be checked, terrorists will have their adherrents that meet our "good" profile do their dirty work. More people of european decent are joining Islam, some will become extremists or bear children that will become extremist. I recently came upon a young woman who was a classic caucasian model if there is one. Blond haired, blue eyed, beautiful, but very much a Muslim. If racial profiling was used she would be allowed through screening points. God only knows what damage she would do once through, if she had terrorist tendencies.

Remember Ma Barker?

-- Modified on 8/13/2006 6:24:00 PM