Minnesota

Speaking with an attorney?
oleoneeye 152 Reviews 1741 reads
posted

Unless its an attorney that knows you personally, you are unlikely to find one that will actually counsel you on how to break a law and avoid prosecution.  At most an attorney will advise you about your rights.  You might find one that will give you an opinion when asked hypothetical questions.

Good luck.

renderman1927 reads

Hey everyone.  I'm posting this in the regional boards (Minnesota) because it pertains to our local laws.

Was looking for some clarification on the following hypothetical scenario:

I read a review on TER for a provider in Minneapolis.  I call/email her and set up an appointment for an incall visit.  Let's say it's a 2 call system, which involves me talking to her on the phone while I drive to her location. I get there, and it turns out she's LE.  They read me my Miranda rights and I inform them that I want to speak to an attorney and I want to remain silent.  And so they arrest me.  (God this would suck.)

For this scenario, I would only be charged with a misdemeanor.  Right?  Or did using my car to drive there and/or talking to her on the phone for directions get me into a gross misdemeanor?

The reason why I'm posting this is in lew of the recent sting in Cottage Grove.  The articles online stated that the men who were caught were being charged with a gross misdemeanor, which is WAY worse than a misdemeanor.

I could live with a misdemeanor, as I'm single and have no priors.  Just wanted to see if anyone would chime in and illuminate me on the subject.  Before posting this I did search for "misdemeanor" in the Minnesota forums, but didn't find much.  

Thoughts?  Yes I should hear this directly from an attorney, but I'm bored at work and thought that maybe any answers would be beneficial to me and other readers.

The sting was done at a hotel/motel, which is considered a public place and means you can be charged with a gross misdemeanor.

In your scenario, what did you do or say to incriminate yourself?  Did you offer $$ on the phone or at the door?  

Given the evidence in the text, I don't see that you did anything wrong.  

They may but not after a thorough interrogation in which you have fully implicated yourself to their satisfaction.

My suggestion would be to advise them that you are choosing to exercise your rights to silence and to an attorney and wish all questioning to stop immediately. At least right after you have given your name and address. At that point, they should arrest you and take you to jail, set your bail and allow you to post bond.

I think by simply calling or contacting the provider and going to see her, they have a solicitation charge against you with intent. This would be enough for a gross misdemeanor.

TheLapDoctor1032 reads

Whether or not you agreed to a sex act in exchange for money. Without that consent, the police have nothing. You could be a photographer going over to take pictures (hopefully there's a camera in your car) or you could be going over to receive a massage, none of which are against the law.

That's why cops try very hard to get you to admit guilt, because usually in prostitution cases, unless you are on tape agreeing to a BBBJ for $150, they have nothing but intimidation and threats.

As to the gross misdemeanor: "If in a public place the crime is a Gross Misdemeanor (up to one year jail) under subd. 2; while otherwise the crime is a simple misdemeanor (up to 90 days jail)"


I don't see how a motel room can be a public place. From what I learned in my conceal and carry class, once you register and take possession of the room it becomes your current residence. Therefore, if someone else (the provider or LE or whomever) does the same, does that not apply?

I once was at a talk given by a lawyer experienced in this area and as I remember, unless it is your actual house, apartments, etc., it is a public place.  So motel rooms are public places.  I don't know how that goes with what you learned in your class.  It is confusing.

Property_Owner2165 reads

I own several lodging properties in the Upper Midwest and I can tell you in each state I own a property, lodging establishments are considered "public places."

Just because you register for the room, doesn't mean you take possession of the room and doesn't make it your "current residence."

The person that gave you such advice is very misinformed. I deal with this everyday.

The truth is the property owner has access to the room at anytime with probable cause. If you refuse access to the property owner, we simply call the cops and they show up with a warrant. Refuse access to the cops and expect the door to be smashed open. If you are at a hotel, the easiest tip-off that something illegal might be taking place is refusing access to staff, security or LE. Makes it very easy for LE to go to a judge and get a warrant.

Furthermore, LE can show up at anytime with a warrant and we are entitled to give them access to your room regardless if you are in or not.

I have never had to deal with the conceal and carry laws at any property yet. I know many properties have rules against the possession of weapons, firearms on the property for security reasons. Hotel rooms might be considered "current residence" for conceal and carry if you have a permit but they will not protect you from illegal activity and the type of charge involved. There is a big difference.

inquiring.mind1105 reads

I have no comment on the misdemeanor/gross misdemeanor question. This is a response to and expansion on the discussion about Miranda and how you should respond when they bust in.

A great deal depends on how careful you have been. When talking on the phone, NEVER discuss services. If she tries to do so, hang up. Never discuss rates. If she tries to do so, hang up. If she asks you where you saw her ad, hang up. When you get to the door, use your eyes for a couple minutes before you drop the envelope. Is she moving in and getting close, or keeping her distance and asking you what you want? If she tries to discuss services or rates before there has been some serious physical contact, leave. Once her lips are wrapped around your cock, that's the time to discuss other services.

Although everyone scorns the disclaimers that providers try to use, and I don't disagree, something like that can be more effective for the hobbyist. If LE is recording, and they are, a statement that you need a really good massage because your low back has been acting up, while you move closer to see if she is willing to get physical, goes some way to create a reasonable doubt that you were there for more than a massage. If all the cops have is phone discussion of time, place and duration, with a disclaimer statement suggesting it is for a massage, it is a harder case to win. On the other hand, stating that you are paying her only for her time and anything that occurs, etc., etc., is certainly a waste of time.  

NONE of this is enough to stop LE from busting into the room and trying to intimidate you into incriminating yourself. If you get involved in a sting it is absolutely certain that at some point they will do so. It is quite true that they may not give the Miranda if they think they can claim it is still "investigation" rather than "interrogation" but you can short-circuit that. If they don't start the Miranda, as soon as you have identified yourself, name and address and nothing more, ask if you are free to leave. If they say "No" then you have been taken into custody and they are obligated to Mirandize you. If they say anything other than "No" start moving in a non-threatening way for the door and see if they physically restrain you. If they do then you have been taken into custody and they are obligated to Mirandize you. As soon as you hear the start of the Miranda, SHUT UP and stay shut no matter how they try to intimidate, antagonize, wheedle, etc. If they don't start the Miranda, the ONLY thing you do is keep repeating that you would like to leave. If you have kept things clean enough, a smart cop might just let you go once he is convinced you won't start talking. Or, he might drag you down to the station to ramp up the pressure.

On the "busting in" issue, LE likes adjoining hotel rooms with doors between them for busts. If there is no door from an adjoining room, and you chain lock the room door when you enter, they have to do damage to get to you. The hotel doesn't like that. If you see an adjoining room door on a first meeting, get nervous. They aren't all that common any more, and a provider ought to be able to get a room without one. If you like to live dangerously, produce a small wooden wedge and start driving it into the adjoining room door so it can't be opened. If she asks you why, say you sometimes fall asleep during massage and want to be certain of security. If it is a sting she is going to use her safe word immediately, before she is trapped in the room with a suspect.

About physical contact with the lady, if you grab her first you are pretty much done. However, the Minnesota appeals court recently threw out a solicitation bust where the male cop admitted to fondling a provider's breast before the arrest. The court left a loophole by noting it was done without her ever asking if he was a cop or not. It is possible they could hold in future that once she asks if he is a cop, some physical contact is justified to continue the charade. We just don't know. The ban on fondling has to go both ways, so ... NEVER ask her if she is LE. That might give her an excuse to fondle you. If she starts handling your package before you make any move, though, it is probably time to start relaxing. If they then bust in on you, you might exclaim "She was grabbing my penis. Why was she grabbing my penis?" When she is put under oath you can HOPE (no guarantee) that she will tell the truth about who moved first. At the very least, the prosecuting attorney will know he has one more issue to deal with before he can get a conviction. It might be enough to refrain from prosecuting. Don't try to lie and claim she touched you first if she didn't. Never try to lie. Just remain silent.

Understand that you are doing a dance with the provider. When it is a first time meeting, she doesn't want to incriminate herself any more than you do. At some point, somebody has to do something to get the ball rolling. If neither of you will blink, the possibility exists you will have some awkward conversation and then part company. Her motivation is cash. Your motivation is to get laid. Try to keep the little head under control. Good luck with that. My view is that she can better afford a soliciting charge than I can so I'm going to wait for her. But you know, she probably sees it a bit differently.

To borrow some immortal words, Let's be careful out there!

renderman1712 reads

Thank you all for the information.  I take back what I said about being ok with a misdemeanor.  For some reason I thought it was only a fine.

This may sound extremely paranoid, but I'm seriously considering speaking to an attorney and working out a plan and a specific type of provider to see (incall at their residence maybe)  to do this with, but in a way that the only consequence of my actions would be a misdemeanor - if that's even possible.

Anybody think this will ever be "decriminalized" in Minnesota at least in the way that pot has been decriminalized (personal use/possession of less than 42.5 grams punished with only a citation)?  Off topic I know.



Maybe someday but not any time soon.  The people on both the far right and left of politics have far too much influence to see that happen any time in the foreseeable future.

Unless its an attorney that knows you personally, you are unlikely to find one that will actually counsel you on how to break a law and avoid prosecution.  At most an attorney will advise you about your rights.  You might find one that will give you an opinion when asked hypothetical questions.

Good luck.

I looked into the MN Laws and this is what I've found... (I hope this helps everyone!) :-)


2009 Minnesota Statutes:

* 609.341 DEFINITIONS.
https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/?id=609.341

Subd. 4.Consent.

(a) "Consent" means words or overt actions by a person indicating a freely given present agreement to perform a particular sexual act with the actor. Consent does not mean the existence of a prior or current social relationship between the actor and the complainant or that the complainant failed to resist a particular sexual act.

(b) A person who is mentally incapacitated or physically helpless as defined by this section cannot consent to a sexual act.

(c) Corroboration of the victim's testimony is not required to show lack of consent.
Subd. 5.Intimate parts.

"Intimate parts" includes the primary genital area, groin, inner thigh, buttocks, or breast of a human being.


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* 609.324 PATRONS; PROSTITUTES; HOUSING INDIVIDUALS ENGAGED IN PROSTITUTION; PENALTIES.
https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/?id=609.324

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http://www.liberty-lawyer.com/sexcrimecharges/sexstatutesmn.html


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* http://www.house.leg.state.mn.us/sessionweekly/art.asp?ls_year=86&issueid_=45&storyid=1387&year_=2009

Prostitution penalty changes (new law)

Published (5/29/2009)

Prostitution penalties are toughened and definitions have been clarified.

Effective Aug. 1, 2009, a new law makes prostitution arrest information more accessible.

Under current law, a crime of engaging in prostitution goes on a person’s record, but not on a person’s driving record. That makes it hard for law enforcement personnel to access the data from their in-car computer if a person is using a motor vehicle to patronize prostitutes.

A loophole is closed in the law where a second violation was enhanced if the first violation was a misdemeanor, but not enhanced if the first was a gross misdemeanor.

It also makes a definitional change to “place of public accommodation,” to enhance the penalty for prostitution in a public place, and amends the public place prostitution crime by replacing current language to make it identical to that in the other prostitution crimes.

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I hope this helps us all stay out of trouble!
Whitney :-D

"Play safe or stay home."




(WTH??? TER doesn't allow "Https://" in the link URLs to be posted... weird!)
https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/?id=609.324

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