I've been following the "discussion" concerning locals vs. travelers with more than a little personal interest.  Having some expetrience in mediation/counseling, I know that before progress can be made people frequently have to spill their guts so to speak and then healing can begin.

I'm a little concerned that the barrage of reasons why the guys are reluctant to repeat with local providers is being heard simply as a laundry list of "put downs" designed to show how inferior our locals are.  I don't see it that way.  No, we (at least, I) don't see you ladies as "sluts" with any negative conotation.  Instead, a number of us have spent considerable time writing out what we are trying to say.  In other words, we are voting, not just with our pocket books, but also with our words.  That takes effort and demonstrates that we are, or at least, wish to be engaged in a dialog to improve the local situaton.  

I'm also concerned that we don't needlessly hurt each other here. I think it would be fair to say that January 20th and 21st are not the brightest days for our little "community".  Maybe, it can facilitate a turning point for all of us.

Ladies, I believe you have a golden opportunity today to begin to resist the pressures from within your ranks to exert power over the men who butter your bread.  OZ has made some great points in his "longer than hell" post, and he did it with humor and what I believe to be good will.  I heard no anger in his words.  I heard no personal "put downs" in his words.  What I did hear was a guy who was willing to take his valuable time to try to remain engaged with the lovely local ladies and the potential we have here to thrive together.

Gentlemen, we need to be careful that we temper our words with kindness.  It is normal for men's words to be heard as very powerful.  That's a fact of human history.  I know it is a grand over simplification, but by nature, men hear things logically and women hear things emotionally.  It may surprise the ladies to know that there isn't a whole lot of emotion in the words they are seeing from the guys on this subject. It's just the way it is and, I for one, hope it can change.

Most of the guys are probably seeing it as a simple and logical progression of "cause and effect".  I don't think any of us (guys) enjoy acting on our convictions but we do because that is our nature.  We don't do it with anger or malicious intent.  It's just the natural conclusion.  BTW, why would we be spending so much time on this if we felt you local ladies were bad news and not worth our effort?

I would invite any one who would like to see something wonderful come out of this to share your convictions -- hobbyist and providers alike.  This post, while long, is just a basic effort to open positive lines of communication.  What do you say?

I would have to disagree with you that the tone or intent of the thread is to put down or demean the local providers. This is about as far from the truth as you can get, at least in my process.

The points of this was stemmed from Tymber and Little Sue asking why business was so slow. Well, if you are going to ask me a question, you had better be prepared for an answer you may not want or like to hear.

I try not to do in a demeaning or derogatory way or as a put down, but to state the facts and analogy of why we choose travelers over some locals.  Not all locals have these issues to contend with.

At the same time as I have mentioned in the post below, there needs to be a shift in the thought process of going from a custmer to client mind set.  if we were looking for mediocrity, we woould stay at home with our SO.

We are looking for a Rock my world , where did I park my car session for a fair price.

Slow down MDL.  Read it again.  I didn't say that "the intent of the thread is to put down or demean the local providers".  Here is exactly what I said: 'I'm a little concerned that the barrage of reasons why the guys are reluctant to repeat with local providers is being heard simply as a laundry list of "put downs" designed to show how inferior our locals are.'    Please notice that I said I'm concerned that "...IS BEING HEARD simply as a laundy list..."  Also, I don't think anyone would accuse you of not saying what you mean.  You have a spotless track record of telling it exactly as you see it.  That is a good virtue to have.  My point in starting a positive thread about this subject was to try to temper our words with some kind and gentle insight into HOW WE ARE HEARD, not just what we are saying.  Seeing the immediate misunderstanding of my post tells me that it is very important to pursue my effort to mediate. Thanks for your thoughts MDL!

I somewhat doubt it.  I notice no hostile reactions from any of the ladies in the stream of posts.  Now, perhaps you will say that this simply reflects gender differences in how these posts are processed, and I wouldn't entirely disagree with you -- but that has rarely stopped posting by the ladies in the past.  Also, the main thrust of the entire stream of posts is the desire of the consumer to be treated as a valued customer -- and that is entirely an issue of feelings as opposed to simple rationality.

Please excuse the lentgth.
How confusing is this hobby becoming? Being a member for only a few months I have enjoyed some carefully selected, with the help of TER reviews, local and traveling companions. When selecting my next appointment, I am always attracted to the traveling providers, since that is part of the "variety" aspect of the search. During the process, I remember my past experiences and try to determine within myself, whether I have had more satisfying experiences with my local choices or my traveling choices. I will say they have all been excellent because I do my homework diligently and guys, it does pay off. That does not mean that I haven't had preferences among my experiences.
At times, I think the locals have been a slight bit better, maybe because they are hopeful of repeat business, and therefore, try a little bit more to satisfy. On the other hand, the traveling ladies have been slightly more distant, maybe not thinking about repeat business since they are here for only a short time. But then again, I see the traveling ladies return to our city and I fondly recall the time I had with them. That is when I think a return visit may be in order, but so far, I have believed in the "variety" thinking.
I have not returned to any of my local or traveling companions to date. But,I have considered that to get the "rock my world" experience that I and MDL refer to, I believe our local ladies have the best opportunity to give that to me and let the "variety" aspect come from the traveling ladies. But, if the local ladies choose not to take advantage of their "home field advantage" then the traveling ladies will be always able to sweep into town and create the "upset." And the search continues with no clear answer in sight. I am not sure there even is an answer, but I'll keep searching. But perhaps the saying, "All's fair in love and war" is as good of an answer as any.

A candid discussion simply cannot take place on a board with providers and hobbyists both participating.

Sure it would be nice, but it isn't going to happen.  

Everyone can talk about how wonderful everyone is, but any time you get into any real type of back and forth discussion, whackos from either side come out of the woodwork and ruin it.

I have never understood why a provider would want to be that involved in a board like this.   The best ones seem to just advertise, do their thing, and leave the boards alone.  In general, the more a provider is involved in an escort review message board, the goofier she is.

-- Modified on 10/6/2005 1:02:44 PM

I don't want you more direct guys to think that I do not agree with voting with words and not just feet.  My only point in this thread is that we can do that with dignity and kindness and still get the same message across.  I firmly believe that we are all people and need to be listened to and be heard in a non-threatening environment.  I believe that every single point in the list of reasons why we are not in a hurry to go back to the locals is very valid.  In fact, I don't think any guy here has put up with more lack of communication from many ladies than I have.  But there is a right and kind way to say it, a way that says we care about you and want you to know how we are feeling.  Amen! Will the ushers please pass the offering plate?  lol

As I think back over the recent postings and my own experiences the following observations and thoughts have come to me.  I prefer to see local ladies and clearly we do have some superior ones.  But the local scene has become very troubled lately.  I think it's clear that's why some guys now strongly prefer the traveling ladies.  I know I am seriously considering trying the travelers out despite my preference for locals.

I have to ask the local ladies the following question.  Do you want us guys as clients?  Clients who will see you more than once.  Clients who will say, yes this lady is worth the effort.

If the answer is yes, then commit to making that happen.  In the end I and others will go where we feel appreciated.  To paraphrase an old song title, "Boys just wanna have fun."  Too much of the time, it's not much fun.

Reflecting on my stats over the last several months:

Have seen 4 travelers.  All four made me feel incredibly wanted.  All four provided top-notch service.  100%

Have seen maybe 7 locals.  Got a wide range of service, but only 3 made me feel that I was appreciated.  And only 2 really gave me the level of appreciation the travelers did.  That's about 30%.

Of all the stuff a lady goes through as provider, it seems those final polishing touches should be so damned EASY!  A smile now and then.  A deep look into our eyes.  Turning off the cellphone.  Ask us how our day went.  Tell us something cute or funny instead of complaining about your car problems.  Tell us how big our dicks are.  Moan during Daty instead of examining your fingernails in boredom.  Initiate kisses or acts instead of just lying there...  These are all such simple things and I don't like giving repeat business to women who can't make these little efforts.

It would be nice if the mediocre/lousy providers were reading this discussion and taking notes, but I think that only the better providers pay attention to this board.  For them to even read our posts indicates that they care on some level what we think.  There's at least some level of engagement.  I know that one of my ATFs pays close attention to these posts even though she doesn't post or promote herself here.  She just wants to stay on top of how to please us.  (Of course, it pleases ME when she stays on top).

If there are some locals who are wondering why biz is slow lately, here is a perspective based on my attempts to see local talent during the past two months:

- repeated calls to book appt with local independents on day before appt needed - called 5 local providers.  3 did not return call, 2 did and both told me to call back on day of appt.  Called them back on day of appt and only got VM, no call back.  One that never called back was a   young lady with fabulous reviews and repeated endorsements on the discussion board (thanks for driving the demand up so much MDL so that all the lurkers out there benefit)
- sent email to two that had that available.  Got one response - wasn't seeiing new clients without reference.  Other never responded.
- on several occasions, tried making contact with three local well reviewed independent ladies, two of which I had seen before and provided good reviews here.  Just got VM with one, one answered and was obviously drunk, one was not available when I needed.
- was able to book two appts with local providers successfully, but I had to really work at it, after making about 20 contact attempts over all.  
- made one appt through a local agency for a "blind" date. Turned out to be a bait and switch
- made one appt attempt through a local agency off of TCUncovered.  Lots of ladies to pick from - no incall
- made an appt with a local provider from a one-line ad out of CityPages (paper) ad.  Fabulous results - 1 hr incall for $$, BBBJ, DATY,etc.  Although could have gone bad just as easily.  Got lucky.  
- made two appts with a travelers , both working through an agency, during this period - Both were booked for a specific time in advance.  Once called back to let me know she had to cancel trip.  One happened as scheduled with no surprises.  Only took one phone call.

- The traveling ladies, mostly working through agencies average in the $$$ - $$$1/2 range
- Local indpendent EROS ladies average about the same cost.  Very few are agencies.  Most independent.
- TCUncovered and CityPages ad ladies - indpendents average about $1/2 - $$ (1 hr FS).  Agences $1/2 - $$1/2.  

My conclusions
- its way easier to find and book a high quality incall through an agency for a traveler (despite verification reqs.  You know its incall and you know exactly when they are available.
- local independents with EROS ads are attempting (and many are probably successful) to make the same rate as ladies working through agencies, who net typically 1/2 - 2/3 the rate the agency charges.  
- guys like me are tired of competing with two many other guys trying to see that handful of really well reviewed local independents worth the big bucks
- its easier to call an agency and pick from who is available on short notice. I think many of us are impulse buyers who find themselve in need - right now.    
- there are lot of independent ladies who are, IMHO, second tier (both locals and travelers alike)in terms of appearance and performance, who are trying to compete at the same level as top flight exclusive agencies ($$$-$$$$.  THey could probably be netting the same business with more reasonable rates.
- Some local independents, however, make up for it in other ways, more time, special services, multiple pops, etc.  These are the ones that are in hot demand and very difficult for some of us to get an appt.  

Fornic8ter

If I understand your post correctly, Youare upset that I have driven up the demand for some great local ladies?

If my responding to inquires on ladies to see or doing a point man report offends you....sorry. I think the you are in the minority feeling my posts on locals and travelers are not worth while and should not be posted.

I would rather someone not make a mistake of a bad experience or benefit from a great experience.

-- Modified on 1/23/2005 5:40:50 AM

No I am not offended by your posts.  I didn't say your posts weren't worthwhile.  But the fact is whether we like it or not, posts which pump up the stock of a provider do work against us from a supply and demand perspective.  How can it not?  If a local lady has a track record of reviews, let that be enough. That way the members here have a bit of an inside track.  Sometimes your posts appear to be biased toward the other team.

By "the other team" I presume you mean the Non VIP members?

I took "the other team" to mean the "girl's team"... the providers.  I think his point was that when guys jump on the provider's bandwagon here on TER, those endorsements become the justification for rate hikes.

Fornic8ter...  I really liked your long, thoughtful post about your view of the local hobby scene and agree with many of your points.  But I would be cautious about thinking of the scene in terms of "teams"...  Certainly there are many issues that apply only to hobbyists, and many that apply only to providers, but we're not competing with each other as the term "teams" implies.

Most successful service businesses are the ones that are able to rise above thinking of themsleves and their customers differently.  They develop a common set of objectives, from which they both benefit, and in essence form a partnership to accomplish those common objectives.  The fact that one is paying the bill and one is providing the service is really secondary to both parties working together to get a job done...  They benefit in different ways, but eachparty only benefits when the common objectives are met.

Your right - my point is that this site should serve the interests of hobbyists first.  Its good to have pointman reports and such, but when there is a post such as the following from MDL, it goes over the top IMHO.  Let the lurkers find out for themselves.  We have this info in the reviews.

"Well I finally got around to seeing one of our fine locals Alex.  Let me tell you this lady has a passion for BBBJ TC CIM that you rarely see these days.  That alone is WELL worth her below average price of admission."

Fair 'nuf...  As I've said before, I liked the idea of vague "thumbs up/thumbs down" pointman reports for specific situations, namely travelers, or gals that only offer occasional incall, whose availability would be gone by the time a review was approved and posted.  It really has become, in my opinion, over-generalized...  too detailed, and too broadly used.

And being a hobbyist, this will make me sound selfish, but I agree that the "prime directive" that guides a site like TER should be the hobbyist's interests.  That seems selfish at first, but if you think about it, having a site that helps boost hobbyist confidence in participating does far more good for all providers than they probably realize.  For every dollar of business a provider loses in marginal reviews or negative posts, another 10 dollars are gained by the amount of participation TER has enabled.  It just doesn't feel that way the day you get a marginal review or get bad press in a post.

MDL, I always get my inside information from you and you're my proint man without a doubt. Keep it up!