So I was reading a review on girl providing DIY massage, and she was given a rating of 8/8.  I was more than a bit confused since I thought that you needed to at least be willing to provide something to go above a 7.  After reading the rules I see that Kisses with tongue rates the same as BBBJ, anal, bisexual and gang bangs (more than one guy), and will let them earn an 8.  

Is it just me or does it seem completely insane to give the same value to kisses with tongue as you would those other much more explicit activities?

Personally I think there should be a separate category entirely for DIY.  We have Massage/Escort/BDSM categories, so why not DIY? I think there should only be a rating for Looks and nothing more than DIY listed as a "performance" number.  It's a bit of a pain to wade through reviews to see if a girl is DIY or not.  It's also nearly impossible to weed out DIY if you've had VIP status lapse due to the fact that there are reviewers who are very vague in their general details and are giving 8's to girls charging $160 bucks for what I can do to myself for free

It would save a little time reading reviews.  I put in the request to TER.  They decided the answer was no.  Not the end of the world, one just has to rely on the reviewer making sure to relate the info.

END OF MESSAGE

Wadeing through reviews to determine if the provider is a DIY type is more than frostrating. I find it less than interesting reading about someone giving himself a thrill.

END OF MESSAGE

I could not agree more.  I had a DIY experience 10 years ago.  I said no thank you to the DIY offer after the massage.  2 hours later had another appointment that left me happy.  I am not judging those that like it but it really should not even be in the escort section.  I do think there is a massage only section.

I have sent them a suggestion about it. So maybe if they get enough complaints they will act upon it.  
They should look into their review guidelines and do something like  
-add a category for diy reviews
-since these are massage girls put them in the massage section
-make it so that you can not receive higher than a 6 is there is no fs offered
-I dont know something to decipher from actual providers that do provide at least an ending.  

I say this having tried those diy places.  I personally like them at times, depending on the girl.  I have had better experiences with them than some other reviewed girls, they can be more erotic than some fs providers out there.  However to put them in the same category or on the same level for a completely different service seems wrong

Yes, Tolkien addressed the subject of DIY providers awhile back.  

The TER rules are what they are, whether we agree with them or not.  You can work to change them, but as others have found, good luck with that.

But consider that there are those who really like kisses with tongue.  Obviously whoever decided the TER review rules likes it!  But I agree those points-enhancers are a strange collection.

As for wading through reviews to see whether a provider is DIY or not, is that really a big chore?  Wouldn't you read a provider's reviews anyway before deciding whether to see her?  And in my experience, it's pretty easy to tell whether a provider is DIY or not after reading a few reviews.  Reviewers are not supposed to provide details on the session in the General section, so not sure why you expect such details as "DIY" or "not DIY" there.  VIP has its benefits.  

If we have a separate category for DIY providers, maybe we should have special categories for the following:

* Providers who provide "massage" but have no massage skills whatsoever.
* Providers who are great with GFE... there's no special scoring for that now.  To find that kind of provider, you need to wade through all those reviews.  
* Providers who offer BBFS... so we know who NOT to see!  

So, for example, the highest rating a provider like Trinity Lake would be able to receive is a 6?  You're serious about that?  Really?  

If the scoring was changed, so it was clear it was DIY, guys trying to decide based on the scores would not need to pay for VIP.  
Since that would hit them financially I can't see TER ever setting up the scoring system like that

Read my entire post before you start getting your panties all in a bunch.  
Did your panties bind up to tight to see the line below that stating. -I dont know something to decipher from actual providers that do provide at least an ending...I would include Trinity in the category of actual providers.

I threw out some quick rambling ideas, it would be up to the TER supprot team to decide how to do this.  

I have seen Trinity and think maybe you should email her so she can fix your problem.   Havent seen her new assets, liked the old ones just fine, but I did see her after she learned a new trick it was pretty cool.

even better, how about in services offered at a DIY, yes/no?  Keep ratings the same.  You need vip to see that.  

Then we come to the problem that the general page you come to for a provider is strictly on what the first reviewer entered.  there should be a way to see each persons individual input on that page.  Since someones version of thin and baby fat seems to vary greatly, I would like to know an overall or what everyone has said.  Unless I am missing something on how to do that?
Like when the first guy that sees a provider gave her 10 earth shattering o's(lol) she did bbbj, she was perky, etc...only for the next guy to show up to a house full of rules, everything covered, saggy, etc.  YMMV..so lets see all of that

I fully agree with many comments here.

DIY should not be rated any higher than 6.

We should be able to rate DIY as a separate category from HE massage.

No sure about the comment about Trinity.  If she is really just DIY, then so be it.  But my sense is that is not the case.

I have no idea how to let management know about these wishes.  I have posted similar thoughts in the past, but no action was taken by the "group" as a whole.

One person mentioned that TER will not change this because it is not in their best financial interest as they want more incentive for people to pay the VIP fees (which I think are way too high by the way. I have a feeling if they cut the price in half they would more than make up for that loss in revenue by taking on extra members, but that's another topic).

I can also see it causing problems due to there being so many reviews out there now that would be skewed higher than new reviews and that's not fair to the new girls.

I still feel strongly that there is a fundamental flaw in this system. For instance, a girl like Gigi, who works her ass off and will do amazing things to your body, should never have to worry about being rated lower than another girl who will essentially do nothing other than give you a massage and a kiss. That's just not right and the rating system should reflect that.

One other issue, and maybe the biggest one in my mind, this DIY trend has been on the upswing over the past few years.  I read the new reviews coming out and more and more often I'm seeing DIY.  I think this is hurting the business.  I think more and more girls are realizing "Hey, I can charge $150 bucks, and I don't even have to touch the guy."  And guys are actually paying for it. Then they go home and they start throwing out "8's" for ratings like they are tossing free candy off a parade float.  If the trend continues I think DIY will be the norm and it will drive up prices for what 99% of us actually want, which is some kind of friction applied to our junk by someone other than ourselves.  

I think ultimately TER needs to take the long view and realize that they don't want the market overrun with DIY.  If DIY is the norm, then there is no reason to even come to TER to see if girls are legit.  There is no real reason to buy a VIP if the majority of it is all DIY.  I think they need to realize they are in the business of rating girls who are providing an actual service worthy of being rated.

As the hobby matures and comes out in the open more, there's more of a need for fine-grained distinctions.

Yes, you certainly threw out some quick rambling ideas!  Next time, trying thinking before typing.  

Trinity can fix a lot of problems but might not be able to fix THAT problem.  Maybe a class in Effective Writing?  

I have been a TER member for 13 years and DIYers are a major headache. TER is about being able to find the connection of your choice within the shortest amount of time. So if I want to find an erotic massage with a happy ending I shouldn't have to wade through all the DYIers to find a good prospect.

One thing for sure, a DIY should NEVER have a performance rating above a 6.

And it would be very helpful if there was a classification for "Massage DIY."

I have wasted a lot of time because of this annoyance.

now we are in writing class huh?  keep on trolling.  yes i like to feed the trolls.  how many grammar mistakes can I put here to keep you busy?

Quote: Knotsaway:   So, for example, the highest rating a provider like Trinity Lake would be able to receive is a 6?  You're serious about that?  Really?  

Your observation actually supports our point.  DIY girls should not be able to get the same ratings as Trinity.  I know Trinity is not FS like the guy was saying, but I think the general intent of his message was there should be a obvious and easy way to differentiate  between what Trinity does do, and what other girls wont do and that those things should not add up to the same rating.

Keep in mind that ratings in TER reviews are not a science--they are the opinions of reviewers, within certain rules established by TER.  So there's nothing to prevent someone like Gigi, for example, from getting a rating lower than another provider who gives only a massage and a kiss... and in fact Gigi has already gotten a score as low as a 3.  Those of us who know Gigi may think that's outrageous--but there's nothing in the ratings system to prevent it, as it's the opinion of the reviewer.

As for DIY being on the upswing, if that is in fact a problem, there's a simple way to deal with it: if you don't like DIY, don't see DIY providers.  The less business DIY providers get, the less attractive it will be for them.  DIY will only become "the norm" if DIY providers get most of the business... supply and demand still rules.  And if they do get most of the business... what does that say about DIY providers and the demand for their services?

As long as there's good demand for non-DIY providers, they'll be around.  A quick perusal of recent reviews shows a lot more non-DIY providers than DIY providers.

The other thing you and others seem to be forgetting here is, "DIY" is not a cut-and-dried thing.  The old saying "YMMV" applies here as it does overall in the hobby.  If you force a "DIY" label to be stuck on any provider who advertises a DIY experience, and then decide only based on that whom to see, you could be missing out on some really great times with some wonderful ladies.

You need to work on TER to change the scoring rules, then, as a DIY provider could potentially get a 9-10, e.g. if they kiss with tongue, are really bi (which is an interesting thought in a DIY session), or take more than one guy (a REALLY interesting thought in a DIY session).  

You and others have a basic problem with how TER's scoring system is designed.  So do I.  But I don't have any problem using existing information i.e. reviews to figure out who's likely to be DIY, and who's definitely not DIY.  I don't need some "DIY" flag on a profile to tell me that.  And if there were such a flag, IMO it still would be necessary to read the reviews because (all together now)... YMMV.  

END OF MESSAGE

You are absolutely correct. I could not agree more.

Imho all creating a separate category does is legitimize a nonservice. In my mind DIY is no more than jerking off in front of a beautiful woman. while that may be fun, it seems to me that a true provider does the work for you. Isn't that the service a true provider provides? DIY....I just don't get it

Yes, we need a DIY fix to the system!

Reviewer guidelines for MPLS:  DIY massages can't be more than 6.  Does not matter if girl is hot or fingers herself.  No touchy, no rating above 6.

If you an somehow do a CBJ without touching the junk, you can indeed get above a 6.  (Refers to an earlier post --probably way off base - about ratings for Ms. Lake)

Personally, I get a kick from reviewers that make comments like "I stuck to the rules like a good boy".

As if one gets a gold star for playing along with a $140 DIY massage.

I know, rotten tomatoes are on their way.

It means "the EROTIC review"... not "the full sex review", or "the provider's-hands-must-touch-my-penis-or-it-doesn't-count review".  I'll bet there was some thought behind that name... just maybe.

What I see in these comments about what actions need be taken wrt DIY providers and guys who see them and review them is intolerance... intolerance of some providers because of the services they offer, or don't offer, and of the clients who patronize them.

I am having trouble understanding the reasons for this intolerance.  No one is forced to see a DIY provider.  There are many, many non-DIY providers to choose from.  Sure, it would be more convenient for people not looking for a DIY experience if there were some flag or special category for DIY providers.  But as I've tried to explain, it's not that easy to pinpoint who's DIY and who's not (see below for some data points on that).  

Over time I've read a lot of reviews of DIY providers.  In almost all of them, the reviewers seem to understand it would be a DIY experience going in.  In most of them, the reviewers seemed to have a good time.  In many of them, they seemed to have a GREAT time... as in, a highly erotic experience, they say they'll repeat if they didn't already etc.  At least THEY thought it was great.  And if they had a great time, and wish to score the provider accordingly, per the rules set out by TER, what's the problem with that?

If you don't like TER's scoring system... work to change it.  Don't beat up other hobbyists for choosing providers based on what they are personally looking for in an erotic experience (even if it's different from what you are looking for), having a good time, and scoring their reviews based on their opinion of the experience, within the rules.

Now some personal data points... I've seen four providers who I expected would most likely provide a DIY experience.  Here's the results:

First visits:  2 were DIY, 2 were not DIY.
   * For those who were DIY the first time, both were highly erotic experiences; I had a great time and it was well worth what I paid.
   * For those who were not DIY, one was a nice time, and one was one of the best experiences I have had with a provider, ever.  

Subsequent visits:  I've seen 3 of these ladies more than once.  (I haven't seen one of the DIY providers again, but I would have no problem doing so.)  For the one I've seen again (several more times) who was DIY on the first visit, those subsequent visits were NOT DIY.  They were... in a word... amazing.  

If there had been some "DIY" label on these ladies and I had decided not to see them because of that label, I would have missed out on some great experiences.  Instead I did some research, including reading every review for each provider. I think the time invested up front was well worth it.

It's just not that simple.  It's not black-and-white, folks.  And it's about personal choices, and tolerance for differences.  I'm not about to advocate something like, "No one who offers anal sex gets more than a 6!" just because I'm not into anal sex.  You like anal sex, hey, go for it!  And score your reviews as you see fit, within the guidelines.  But don't tell me and others that our preferences in erotic adventures are somehow less valued than yours, just because you don't like to do those kinds of things.

Time to wash the soap off the soles of my feet...

DIY counts.  Just counts less.

And if a DIY provider provides more on a second visit....then they can be rated higher.
They are not DIY any more, are they?

Yes, they are.

Think about it... from the provider's perspective.

But, since there's no difference in TER rules between a DIY finish and, say, a HJ, there would be no reason to update the review score just based on that.  If the provider were to add something like a BBBJ or DFK, then the review could be updated with a higher score based on that, if desired.

Your comment misses the point.  The status quo is under discussion.  We know right now that DIY is the same as HJ.  The whole point of the thread is to debate whether they should be treated differently.

In my view, what is is not what should be.  Many others on this thread agree.

Hey its great if your lady friend became more friendly over time.  Then the reviews should note that.

Who is writing the reviews? WE are. Who gives a DIY an 8? WE do. Who is to blame for this nonsense? WE are. Simply refuse to give a DIY a high score....pretty simple. I have had DIY that were amazing.....no 8 for them. I have also had a DIY the first time, and much more than DIY upon returning......didn't write about it because I was asked not to. If they advertise DIY, they should not expect more than a 6. Guys, WE write the reviews. Why are we blaming THEM for OUR stupidity? Pretty simple, in my book..nuff said.

At one time it was documented but the last time I looked for it I didn't find it.  I think the best solution is to have separate areas for different categories of reviews such as FS vs erotic massage.

Spot On!

+1

Huge fucking annoyance is being generous. They don't do sex of any sort, and they can get "7", when a beautiful gal that doesn't kiss or offers a cbj and fucks the shit out of you can only also get a "7".

There should be a destinatio

There's already different categories for erotic massage vs. FS:  "Escort" vs. "Massage".  From what I've seen, those categories are usually a reliable indicator of whether FS is offered.  There are a few exceptions, where a provider does provide an escort-style experience w/o FS, although those kinds of providers seem to be pretty rare.  In those cases, it's easy to look at the provider's profile to see if "Sex" is indicated

And there's also a mechanism in TER reviews to distinguish between a massage w/o HJ or BJ, and less i.e. that dreaded DIY.    Just use the service categories consistently:

* "Massage" would NEVER involve a HJ or BJ.  Likely not nude, topless, or B2B either.  In fact it could be just a massage!  So better read the reviews!

* "Massage Topless", "Massage Nude", "Massage Body to Body" with no other category listed indicate more than a straight massage but most likely no better than a DIY finish.  Anyone not wanting DIY should either steer clear, or read the reviews carefully.

* "Massage Hand Job" or "Massage and Blow Job" are pretty clear.  To make it even more clear on the BJs, there's a "Blow Job" flag.

As for performance ratings... 6 means "Nice Time".  7 means "Hot Time".  8 means "Went the extra mile".  I don't think anyone who has never experienced one of the highly erotic DIY providers is in any position to dictate to those who have that a DIY provider can never, ever provide a "hot time", and could never "go the extra mile".  If I were you folks complaining about ratings, I'd be complaining about the guys who could rate someone like Gigi a 3, or someone like Portia Eden a 6 (or worse, "ok if you are drunk"!), not someone who rates a DIY provider above a 6.

The level of service isn't much different.

DIY isn't a service, it's the lack of it.  I always end up rolling my eyes when I see so and so "offered me DIY".  Is that like a doorman offering for you to open your own door, a repairman offering you to fix your own (fill in the blank)

Hmm, interesting question.  Let's see... does a stripper in a private booth rub her naked body over every inch of your naked body?  Does she give you a full body massage--perhaps CMT quality, but with eroticism?  Does she let you caress/lick/suck her all over?  Does she do Russian?  Does she do mutual masturbation, and actually cums (no act)?  Does she do DFK?

If so, maybe we need to start reviewing those strippers in private booths!  

That is all.  Hehe

It is true that sensual services are a continuum.  So for many the issue is where does one draw the line between a massage that one goes to TER for a review and one where TER reviews would not make much sense.  Note that this comment does not address FS; TER handles that service very well.

There is a taxonomy question related to non FS services.  To my way of thinking, DIY is a substandard service and I would want to be alerted if that is the maximum allowed.  Others may disagree.  The point of the thread is that most would agree that DIY is different than a HE, does as a BJ is different from a HE or FS is different from all of those.

If TER management does not want to add a separate pull down for DIY, then it does make sense for the community of reviewers to agree on the appropriate ratings and reviews.  Personally no matter how hot; if a massage is DIY only then it does not rate above a 6.  If things get better over time but the therapist does not want that advertised that is their business perogative.   However, the public rating should reflect the "official" services.

Phish got it right.

You keep mentioning that the scale can go down, but that is not the point.  Even the best provider on TER who has absolutely no rules can be given a 1.  The bottom limit isn't in question and really has nothing to do with the discussion.

The point of the whole thread is DIY is not a service. Do It Yourself, is you finishing yourself off, and the whole point is, most people don't view pleasuring themselves as something someone else does for them.  A provider who makes you DIY should not under any circumstances, no matter how hot or erotic be able to be categorized at the upper limit of 8 just because she kisses.

The whole point of the thread is that that scenario is ludicrous.  

The point of the thread is there should be definitive levels of service clearly defined by their maximum potential ratings.  

DIY is not a gray area.  You either do it yourself or she does it for you.

I love it!  I have thought if I found a DIY by accident of writing a review that included something like.  "I leaned back and felt a grip on my unit that was all too knowing."

FBSM is a service.

B2B massage is a service.

DFK is a service.

Exchange massage, and mutual touching in general, is a service.

I could go on, but I think you see where I'm going.

Performance ratings aren't just for the ending.  They are for the entire experience.  And IMO it's very possible that a provider who does DIY endings can deliver a "hot time" or, in rare cases, can "go the extra mile", considering the entire experience.

Placing some arbitrary limit on a provider's performance rating, a limit that isn't supported by TER's rules, is IMO unfair to providers.  The idea that a few people should dictate how reviewers score providers, in a way that is contrary to the rules of the site, is ludicrous.

All this angst about ratings of providers who offer DIY, by guys who don't do DIY... I don't get it.  WHY DOES IT MATTER, if you are going to avoid these providers?

There is an alternative:  start a site like TER, but has strict rules for how DIY providers are categorized and scored.  Or doesn't allow reviews of DIY providers at all!  You could come up with some clever ads like, "Real men don't DIY!" or whatever.  Maybe you'll make so much money on it you can retire from your day job!  

-- Modified on 3/28/2013 5:26:39 PM

They were not intermixed with the review of FS escorts.  I don't know why TER changed that but I think it was a mistake.  There is still a massage parlor section.  You could put different types of reviews into different categories as seems most appropriate.  The problem with the service categories is that they get set when the provider's profile is first created and subsequent reviews do not update that.  Someone also has to submit a problem report separately to try and get updates made.

Either way they must be in demand as there are quite a few of them out there.  The other problem is that when these "providers" decide to ad to their services and now they charge $$ for a h.e. massage.  Seems steep.

Just read a review that did not even identify if a release was in the picture or not.  I mean not even a mention of DIY or provider hands in use.  The reviewer is Demabior, the provider was Tara.

Can't believe the powers that be ran the review.  

We now have a new, even lower standard of reviews on TER.

There is LOT of variability in what gets approved as a review.

Not sure we'd want to hold up this particular review as a "standard".    But it does provide quite a few details... just not details on the release.  Everyone has his own style on reviews, some provide more details than others.  Some are one long disjointed sentence; some read like exquisite poetry.  This particular fellow seems to like fingernail action.  I know in some cases, the provider asks that some details be withheld from the review.  No way to tell if that was the case here.  One option in these cases is to PM the author and ask for more details, if he can receive PMs.

I noticed another recent review where there was a release mentioned, but no info on what kind of release... DIY, HE, BJ... .  I don't think there's anything in the TER guidelines requiring that kind of detail, although it's nice to have if there's no objection from the provider.

http://www.theeroticreview.com/reviews/showReview.asp?Review=1370156

And another review, same provider, but here no mention whatsoever of any release... so yeah, some reviews are more detailed than others!

http://www.theeroticreview.com/reviews/showReview.asp?Review=1358988

-- Modified on 3/30/2013 9:07:02 PM

Knotsaway,

I was the author of the first review.  Believe me, if it was DIY you would know about it.  I think you know that by now.

I might make that assumption (re type of release), and get away with it.  Other readers (including visitors to the area) might not know enough to make that assumption.

But you know what, it's no big deal.  As I said, everyone has his own style for writing reviews.  I am sure a lot of folks throw up over my reviews.  And I roll my eyes over some of the reviews I read.  But then there's those rare gems that are literary masterpieces.  Some reviews provide more details than others.  Some withhold certain details, including details on the release, based on the provider's wishes--implicit or explicit.  

Variety is the spice of life.  And we get a LOT of variety in TER reviews.