Every poster and reader agree's that it was wrong, I am sure Madison agree's it was wrong.. but again.. it was a mistake.. and it can happen to anyone.
Hindsight is perfect...
Sorry I didn't get to this post earlier. My computer at home and work have been down and I've been scrambling to find a secure place to read the Board. Thanks to the Staff for taking care of this.
Since Madison is banned we may never know if she just slipped up and made a mistake. But I want to remind you that some guys have slipped up on this board and released addresses and it was gratiously forgiven with a reprimand of a post. Hopefully Madison had just an oversight and a brain fart because she was tired.
I find it interesting that guys can release all the personal information on a provider with no retaliation on this board. Of coarse being a woman I think we are just as valuable as being a MAN and we have just as much to fear as YOU do.
Just to remind you .. It was a posting of Jessica, name, address and phone number. I am sure that client is still allowed to post on this board.
Forgiveness is golden, but again .... to hold someone accountable for a mistake for the rest of their life is what you have choosen to do to Madison.
-- Modified on 12/15/2003 12:41:10 PM
Sorry, but in my opinion this was beyond just an oversight/brain fart.
Sparks posted that he had been stood up and was seeking compantionship for the night. He never mentioned Madison or any provider's name, and, if you believe him, he wasn't even talking about Madison when he posted. Madison could have e-mailed him privately (he did post his e-mail) but instead she posted private e-mails that contained his phone number. That's 3 brain farts - assuming it was she he was talking about, posting private e-mails instead of e-mailing him, and giving out his phone number. She also never retracted or edited her post. We all make mistakes, but it seems she went out of her way to unfairly besmirch someone.
Just a thought, putting myself in the hobbiest (readers) shoes. Seeing that the hobbiest wasn't even talking about Madison (from hear say), yet Madison did, what it was that she did, thinking it WAS "her" he was talking about. "How many guys has she stood up?" to where she would feel it was her? Kind of makes me think.
I do honestly think that she should have her review still up in my opinion. If the hobbiest read the boards, they would know weather they want to take the risk or not.
But then again if there is some kind of disclosure stating that if you release information then you will be banded FOREVER, that would be understandable. Then she should have known better. As a newbie here, I'm just stateing my opinion. Neither side is to be blamed I feel everyone takes some kind of risk in this hobby. Just need to watch your P's and Q's and watch your approach.
Tiger, clients and escorts will always be treated differently and have different requirements and responsibilities. If we are really all going to be treated the same then the escort should have to pay the client half the time. Of course that is rediculous.
Thank you.
-- Modified on 12/16/2003 7:59:35 AM
Since none of us knows Madison's side of this, isn't it a bit
soon to rush to judgement? Is it possible that this was not intentional on her part? For those of us who know her, doesn't this seem a little out of character?
I certainly have made mistakes and been hastey in posting at times and I think this may have been the case here. I have just been informed that it was indeed an oversight on Madison's part. I am not sure if she can even post to defend herself. But she was not feeling well and just cut and pasted the email late last night not realising that it had such sensitive information. I too have forgotten to READ through the WHOLE MESSAGE to make sure information isn't all there. All I can say a little forgiveness would be nice on this board.
Yes Madison did something that crossed the line, but it wasn't intentional. So you can take that for what my say is worth.. which might not be worth much since I am a woman.. ha ha.. maybe I should be an IT.. Happy Holidays..
-- Modified on 12/15/2003 1:42:44 PM
I agree with Tiger. At work I have certainly sent email to individuals I did not intend to, or had my email forwarded (or shown) to a third party who took offense. The general rule I have heard is don't put anything in email you would not want to see in the newspaper. Maybe a bit strong, but does emphasizes the extent to which those of us engaged in this business are really dependent on each other. Despite the best of intentions mistakes will happen. If no damage was done to the individual it sounds like Madison deserves a second chance.
There is definitely a problem when private info is released anywhere, regardless of intentional or not, but to permanently cast away a respected member of the community seems a bit harsh for one offense. I don't know Madison nearly as well as some of the other providers here, but my opinion has been that she respects the business and the clients, and would not have knowingly posted such an e-mail.
I know I would be upset if someone posted my info - any of us would, but I could at least be understanding and a little forgiving if it were not done maliciously or with hurtful intent.
Instead of permanent exile, why not moderate her posts? Have a suspension? I would think there should be some kind of reasonable solution that isn't a death sentence - this isn't Sadam getting caught, it was an honest mistake (IMHO). Perhaps every post on these boards should be moderated so something like this can't happen. If it is too much work for one mod, I am sure there would be volunteers out there who would watch out for that kind of thing being released. I help out as a moderator on a couple of other boards, and it isn't that big of a deal to check a post to see if it is passable and click approve......
Just one opinion in a mess of them....
Amber
She's been around long enough to know not to jump to conclusions about a client just as she would expect a client not to do the same about her. 8:25 pm is not so late at night that you would completely lose your wits. The whole idea of copy/pasting and posting a private corespondance to a public board is wrong enough by itself regardless of the content. If this is an example of how she would handle a stress situation, then I would not want to be the one dealing with her should circumstances be different. I'm not trying to further condemn here, just stating the facts. Whatever the motivation or intention may have been, what she did was wrong and lacked forethought and common sense.
Every poster and reader agree's that it was wrong, I am sure Madison agree's it was wrong.. but again.. it was a mistake.. and it can happen to anyone.
Hindsight is perfect...
If you lose sleep worrying about a provider misusing your info,meeting a cop,getting ripped off, having your wife find out...then go find a new hobby.
She does know better and made a mistake. I won't repeat what everone has said on her behalf. But everyone that knows her, knows that she would never do something like this intentionally.I have always told madison the world belongs to those who get up early each morning. This morning she would have been able to see her mistake and correct it but due to the flu she wasnt up till after 12(and her phone was off). Saying she had some motive or evil intentions is just too funny.Goofy boys.
Show some compassion otherwise it makes you look like an arse and people will be less likely to understand next time you make an honest mistake. Also who is is going to misuse sparks number? The point was personal info being posted(which was wrong). But as we suspected it was a mistake. And I dont think mr sparks will suffer.
I didn’t know it was an all or nothing affair; a choice between not hobbying at all, or giving any provider any information they request. As in most other endeavors, there are varying degrees of risk. I think a prudent middle ground would be to see only the most discrete providers, and only provide necessary information. Saying you shouldn’t hobby if you have any privacy concerns is a lot like saying you should practice complete abstinence if you have any fears about STD’s, and that, otherwise, you may as well have unprotected sex, because latex condoms and such aren’t 100% effective. This works for some, but most prefer to take the middle ground.
Your well-stated and on-the-money comment not withstanding, I did find Madison's accusation to be very out of character, but then again I only know her through a couple of failed attempts to schedule an appt with her.
I have not read each and every post (probably 3/4) so forgive me if this perspective has already been discussed but it seems like a prominant theme in Madison's defense has been "she made a mistake, suspend her but not for life".
I think many of us are forgetting that TER has WAYYYYY TOO many subscribers (both providers and hobbyists) to handle things on a case by case basis. TER NEEDS policies. Will those policies be perfect fits for every scenario? Probably not, but policies are needed nonetheless. What if the hobbyist in question had his marriage and/or business get flushed down the tubes because his personal info was exposed? What if his wife left him and took his kids? Seems that Madison's "life sentence" on TER doesn't even begin to approach the "life sentence" that the Hobbyist might be suffering thanks to Madison's mistake (intentional or not).
I agree that TER needs to take a hardline stance on issues like this. That said, I have never met Madison but she did seem exceedingly pleasant over the phone, but - I'm sorry - I am ALL for ZERO tolerance when it comes to posting personal info on the internet.
Actually, with the use of local moderators, situations can
be examined on an individual basis as any permanent situation should be.
If something bad happens to the hobbiest in question, then by all means execute the strictest sanctions, however, if nothing happens, what has been accomplished by severly punishing someone who made an inadvertant mistake?
Madison may have a family too and this is her livelyhood we are talking about.
Would you like your career severly stifeled because of an honest mistake and what possibly could happen but hasn't?
In the event that a hobbyist's family finds out, there are no 'sanctions' that will ever bring back his wife and kids.
TER is trying to PREVENT that from happening, you are merely trying to punish AFTER it has happened.
Madison being banished sucks (for us too, since I wanted to meet with her) but it definitely serves a greater and long-term good. You need to get out of the "would you like it" mode of thinking. The whole idea of being fair means that you disregard what you want on a personal level and go with what is objectively best for the population at large.
she has access to and reviews posted on at least one other site and manages her own web site, too (she can certainly allow reviewers to post their experiences on her site). it's too bad madison messed up but i for one totally back TER's rapid and final response.
laker
Whether a mistake or intentional it could ruin the clients life. And posting private correspondence is very rarely justified even if there is no private contact info in it. It was clearly not justified in this case.
I hardly think that the clients or providers here in Minnesota Nice Land would take that information and use it against you.. But maybe I am naive... AGAIN.. this is just my opinion. I have been around for over 3 years and have Used my own car(which plates would show my real name), had people to my home(humm maybe a stalker is out there), hummm told people my real name.. hummmm da*# noboby told my mamma...
Again... there are risks on both sides and a certain level of trust that is required. I didn't think this site was on the list of most housewives to read, but again.. it might be.. if it is look out for how you ask for your eggs in the morning.. you might get them scrambled with hot sauce... naughty Tigerrr....
It looked to me like Madison had a beef with the hobbyist, and posted his phone number hoping other providers would see it and blacklist him as “punishment” for some imagined transgression. I fully expected her to claim it was an accident. She’s smart enough to know that that’s the only avenue available to her to possibly get reinstated. It seems like a real stretch to me though. What reason did she give for posting private correspondence to a public board? Was the entire post accidental, and if so, how the @#$* did that happen?! I don’t think it’s ever appropriate to post private emails here, but this instance was truly bizarre! The post wasn’t even about her.
I suspect that she may be friends with the girl who stood him up, however, and “outed” his personal info on her behalf in order to blacklist him. The A-ladies got each others backs, so-to-speak. That is what I meant before when I referred to the incestuous nature of the A-ladies referral system. I believe the purpose of the system is to keep clients in line and on message. Dis an A-lister, by doing an awful thing like posting and honest, uninflated review, and you can count on being blacklisted the whole team.
JUST SAY NO to giving out unnecessary information to providers. Most providers don’t ask for or require it, so next time you’re asked just move on down the line to the next girl. We all know the A-list girls compile a shitload of data, share it among themselves, and keep it for life. Do you really want to contribute your personal data to that system?
In summary, I do believe that it’s more a matter of using data for BLACKLISTING rather than blackmailing, but who knows what they’ll be using the data for tomorrow when times are even tougher? If you can’t trust them, you can’t trust them, period.
The ONLY thing any personal info should be required for is verifcation and safety of the providers. If someone can't show the respect for me and my safety then I don't care to see them. If you don't want to give your info to me, that's fine, but sign up with RS2K or another verifcation service.
A client was just convicted of murdering a provider in Milwaukee, and she had his verification info - it was they only way they were able to catch him. I am not going to take any foolish risks because someone is too nervous about me protecting myself. After I have met someone any information I have about that person is shredded, then burned so I have no records other than an e-mail address - and I only keep that if it is requested that someone wishes to know when I am back in the TC or any other city I happen to visit.
I have NEVER told another girl to not see someone after a poor review, in reality if a session goes bad I will try to recommend someone to that gentleman that would be more suited to his tastes. I'm not perfect for everyone - none of the ladies are, and that is what keeps things fun and interesting for all of us and all of you.
Moonray, It is clear by all your unfounded accusations that you have never met Madison. She is a very sweet, caring, intellegent and overall nice person. She said this was unintentional and appologized. I believe her. It was a serious mistake and there needs to be consequences. However, permanently being banned and character assasination are not right ones.
I see the board is now alive.
-- Modified on 12/16/2003 8:41:41 AM
Catherinespiga: "Then again there are two types of hobbyist and two types of girls I guess we know which one you are asn which girl you prefer?"
No, do enlighten me. I'm assuming you're jumping to the conclusion that all the outspoken guys on this board must be assholes who treat girls poorly in person, and that all the obsequious posters have the strongest characters. I also assume that you think low profile girls who pretty much keep to themselves are a bunch of skanks. I haven't found the later that to be the case, and I'm quite positive I'm not the bad boy you envision me to be, LOL.
P.S. I wasn't just talking to myself the way it appears when someone completely changes a post after it's already been responded to.
-- Modified on 12/16/2003 2:10:13 PM
I personally don't believe for a moment that this was any type of blacklisting effort. If he wanted to, he could always use a different name and different number and still persue other providers. The way you describe this makes it seem larger than the JFK conspiracy.
I appreciate what seems to be a sense of community that exists through what you refer to as the "A-listers". For starters, these ladies do not get to be on the "A-list" by simply mailing in their dues or being friends with the right people. I have not been in this hobby for long but it is clear to me that these ladies are ones that have earned that esteem by providing quality services in an intelligent, engaging, and discreet manner. Further, we are all at some risk in this hobby. If a group of providers (the dreaded "a-listers") have found some commraderie and support amongst themselves -- I say good. I would think this gives them not only some friendship but also a forum to have a better sense of what to watch out for and a way to gauge there own approaches through a support group of peers that I imagine provides a sense of checks and balances to their lives. Personally if I were in their situation I could not imagine going it alone with no one to have an honest, open discussion about this. I guess my take is this is a good, healthy situation that they -- and we in turn --benefit from rather than it being some kind of mafia looking to blacklist us.
I think every post that I've read indicates that there is acknowlegdement that Madision was in error on her post. But, I think that she has earned the respect through her other posts and through the many postive things that have been shared about her in the past to at least allow her the chance to respond to this.
As I said, though I've followed this board for some time, I've not been actively engaged in the hobby until recently. To me this board has been very educational -- largely through I think the fact that it does allow for some very open honest communication on some issues that can't necessarily be discussed in other situations in life. With that openness does come a great deal of responsibilty. But, as we are all human and mistakes can occur, I would hope that this level of openness is also matched by a level of trust and tolerance for those times when a mistake may occur. I think Madision is certainly due her chance to address this. If she does and shows no concern or remorse -- then fine, it would then be appropriate to ban her from this board. My guess is that would not be the case.
Who amongst us has not made mistakes? I certainly have and would hope for those and for the ones we've all made that no one is judged this quickly and harshly.
Madison did send a note apologizing to me and explained to me she didn't intend to post my personal info and missed my number. I replied that I don't think any apology can remedy this. My number was blatant in the first line of the post so the note was apparently unread before being posted. In our email exchanges prior to this, all communication was positive, without a hint of frustration from either of us. We simply didn't connect and certainly did not have an arranged appointment. When providers ask for personal information to verify who we are they take on a responsibility to be discreet. Afterall, discretion is a part of what is provided. I was not given the benefit of an inquiring email to see if I was upset or referring to her, or to even ask that I make sure to note I was not referring to Madison. There was absolutely no reason to post my personal information.
If someone is making a career choice to be a provider, whether for long or short term, they need to be able to accept responsibility for the information they hold.
Who knows who reads this board. The post with my number was read at least a couple hundred times before the number was edited. I have a personal and professional life that I don't want or need to be publically shared, especially in this forum. Discretion needs to remain of the utmost importance.
In my initial post I indicated that I was stood up by a MN provider, which I was, and also suggested I was looking to still meet with someone. That connection with Madison would have been the one I preferred, to meet with her.
If there are no lines that aren't to be crossed, what are we doing here. This sort of thing CAN NOT happen. No excuses.
-- Modified on 12/15/2003 2:39:18 PM
It is sad that Madison chose to not pay enough attention to her psoting while she was cutting and pasting. Bottom line is that she crossed the line in posting non-public information about a hobbyist
Should she be permanatly banned...I don't know it is prety extreme. Maybe the staff and moderator need to come up with a policy that states what will happen if this is done.
Sparks sent me a private email after I complimented him on his tact on NOT revealing the provider. Even in the private email he did not tell me the provider. I feel for his privacy being invaded by another provider. We give very personal and not to be published information in order to see most any provider. This information should be held in utmost confidence!
I am in total agreement here - this kind of oversight or mistake is about the worst that can happen. The information has been removed however, and hopefully nobody has called said number so perhaps we can move on with the healing. Madison is likely to have lost enough business from this mistake without being banned from the boards for life, and her reputation is certainly damaged. I don't know what the right call here is, and I certainly don't claim to be the smartest one out here, but I would like to think that there can be some kind of solution that doesn't cost us a normally good poster on the boards.
Your missing the point that Omega is making. A 2-week or even 2-month suspension isn't going to send the message that ZERO tolerance is the absolute rule.
There is a reason why kids only burn their hands on a hot stove once. It's because it hurts so damn bad the first time. If 'burning your hand on the stove' only resulted in mild discomfort, how long do you think it will be before the child touches the stove again?
If Spark's wife or business partners found out about his hobby, do you think they would only slap a 2-month suspension on him? No - he would be suffering for the rest of his life. That is why, there has to be zero tolerance for this sort of thing. Make a mistake once, and you're gone for life. That is the only way to (help) turn around the 'culture of flippant regard to personal information' that Omega so succinctly described.
I don't believe that the "point" that is being "missed" is valid in the first place. The ZERO tolerance crap is for politically correct school boards. ZERO tolerance does absolutely nothing to stop things that are done by accident! Then to severly hurt someones career when no damage has actually happened is a terrible travesty of justice.
First you are assuming no damage has been done. Wrong. It doesn't really matter how significant the damage either. If the career of a provider is a concern, all the more reason for the career provider to act in a thoughtgful, rather than impulsive, or vindictive manner. If illness or mental fatigue is an issue, be responsible enough to wait until thoughts are more clear. That is the responsibility accepted when one requests personal information in order to protect safety.
That is the common understanding about what is done with information in this arena.
This CAN NOT happen. If it is allowed then what's the point? Might as well just post the client white pages as another section to this board.
Oh no, I definitely get the point - if you read all of my posts here, my thought was to put her on permanent moderated status, not welcoming her back with no punishment because nothing came of it. Reading through everything that has been said here it seems people are only thinking black and white, no grey area and I can see how easy it is to do that.
I don't recall her past problems on TER, much less know the specific details, so I can't be of any help there, and I understand the need to have standards of etiquette - obviously posting contact info (other than your own) should be struck down. I realize it would be a pretty good piece of work to moderate every post on the boards, and that there would be arguments about who gets to allow that info, but TER posts hundreds if not thousands of new reviews each and every day across the country. From my understanding those reviews are approved by a moderator or staff member, could we not have someone checking to make sure bad info isn't placed in postings as well?
There is a system of checks and balances in place now, but definitely in this case that system was too late - why did the first hundred or so readers of that post not contact TER immediately to get it taken down? My first instinct would have been to get in touch with someone to get that removed immediately - did anyone out there take that action? Why did it take 10-15 hours before Staff had to take action? Madison is definitely at fault for posting it in the first place, mistake or not, but there should have been quicker action taken by all of us on getting it removed faster than it was.
Discretion is everyone's responsibility - I take that responsibility very seriously, as do most of the other providers I have ever associated with. There have been cases of clients even trying to be helpful posting a provider's hotel information on the boards, angry wives calling because a client left his e-mail open or a phone number hanging around - it is definitely a risk to all of us, and we all need to look in the mirror at our privacy practices.
I love this hobby, and hope to be active for quite a while yet - I don't want to see it ruined for everyone because of the mistakes of a few, so I will trust the powers-that-be to do the right thing for the good of us all.
Take care and play safe everyone,
Amber
Srvfan stated in an earlier post that both his work and home computers were down and caused a delay in his action.
I definitely was not blaming srvfan - I know he had computer issues, I was referring to everyone else that had read the post before he got back. There are those little problem reports that we send when a review is inaccurate - someone should have alerted staff to the problem well before it got taken care of, finally by staff.
I will not take a stand one way or the other on this issue,
but I would like to offer my 0.2 cents
A mistake was made by this provider, The STAFF rendered a
judgment and have banned her from the board.
As to weather it is to harsh? Well I guess that it is up to
Sparky to weigh in and say to staff that the damage was slight
and ask for the Staff to lighten up or throw the book at her.
But Also remember that the board has it rules and if they are
violated then staff has every right to do as it see's fit to
protect the members and as well to cover TER's backside from
any possible fallout. So weather I agree or not with the
judgement, it has been handed down and all who post here can
take note of the penalties for making mistakes.
Trooper
This is a sad day indeed, I like Madison personally (a lot) and professionally. As much as it pains me to say this, and it does, I think that Staff is doing the right thing.
I know I'm sticking a virtual lightning rod up my turd chute by posting this under my real screen name... But I'm doing that because I know so many local providers and I am banking on my reputation and posting history to show that I am not trying to flame anyone. I'm not pro-provider or anti-provider, I'm pro-healthy hobby environment period. So off I go...
This is NOT an isolated incident. The fact is that the attitude of local providers about data secrecy has become totally complacent, and it is not just Madison. Madison is not just a victim of poor keyboarding or poor judgement. She is a victim of a growing attitude among local providers that includes WAY too much data being distributed on the back channel, and WAY too flippant an attitude about data security. Just like the safety problems with NASA... This episode has been a long time in the making. We all knew it was going to happen, we just weren't sure exactly when and who the reckoning would fall on, but we knew it was coming. Now we know. It doesn't really matter whether she made a mistake or not, providers have been playing with fire and someone was going to get burned. Be sad for Madison if you like, but look in the mirror too and ask yourself "have my actions, have my attitudes contributed to the atmosphere to which Madison fell victim?" I know I have. I haven't stood up and expressed enough outrage as I've seen this gradual complacency sneak up on our providers.
The problem isn't that Madison made a mistake, honest or otherwise. The problem is that local providers have become so complacent about keeping client info secret, that they're not really even outraged anymore when this happens. Instead of being THE cardinal sin, it's accepted as just part of the equation. Like Catherine said, if you're that concerned about the risks, get out of the hobby. What?!? Guys... Gals... Neither of us can accept this attitude as the status quo. We all have to agree that data stays secret no matter what. Let me repeat that: NO MATTER WHAT. No tolerance for mistakes, even honest ones, or there will be more mistakes. No matter what.
The fact is that there are lines that cannot be crossed. Take the yellow line on the freeway--it matters not whether you cross it on purpose or accidently, the outcome is the same. You probably die, and worse yet, probably kill someone else too. Having your friends excuse it the next day as "an honest mistake" won't bring you back to life. Calling upon a higher power's sense of fairness won't bring you back to life. Consequences are funny that way. If Sparks had lost his job over this, I doubt he could simply tell his boss or family "it was just an honest mistake, no foul" and go back to the way things were. Let me then reverse Catherine's statement... "If you aren't the kind of person who can keep data secret, so secret that not even an honest mistake will reveal it, then maybe you shouldn't be a provider." The commitment from providers to protect our contact data is sacred and must be kept. Not just for our sakes, but even more for yours. The real loser in all of this is Madison's pocket book, not Spark's reputation.
The back channel in Minneapolis has just spun completely out of control. Too much info is kept, too much info is shared, too much info is misued, and too much info is released, and I say enough is enough. Example after example comes to mind, there are so many...
Every hobbyist in the cities that I know receives outbound "telemarketing calls" from several well-known providers. That has to stop. If you have our phone numbers on file ANYWHERE, for any reason, then you are wrong. Keeping the numbers is what enables honest mistakes.
Back around October 1, a provider IN THIS THREAD disclosed the contents of a personal e-mail from me to others and that had nearly dire consequences for me. I didn't go public with that incident here, but you know who you are, and this incident makes me rethink that discretion. I'm sure she's become so accustomed to data flowing freely on the back channel that it didn't seem wrong at the time, and that's the problem. It's the attitude, not just the action. Had I outted her back then, she'd be out and Madison would still be here. Shame on me.
A few months ago I gave one of the well-known providers another well-known provider's name as a reference. When I met the provider, I was set back when she recited some of my personal contact data back to me that she got from my reference. I have never seen either provider again, never will. Keeping track of the linkage between my real name, TER screen name, e-mail address, and phone number... Sounds innocent enough, but that has to stop. It is wrong wrong wrong. We as hobbyists have been wrong for allowing it to go on uncontested for so long, we should have been blacklisting providers when it first started happening, and if we had, Madison would still be on this board.
These are all examples of how the culture of our local providers... Not just Madison, but MANY main-stream providers, has to change 180 degress or it will happen again.
Maybe from this we can start a dialog about such things as reasonable screening, record retention, handling references, etc. Possibly we can come up with some ideas that will protect the safety and privacy of both client and escort.
Omega,
If you make an honest mistake that hurt someone and ask for forgiveness and they basically told you to go to hell, how would you feel? How would you feel if this mistake branded you for life? Maybe you are more perfect than the rest of us Omega, but I for one am not going to throw the first stone.
Madison's track record has earned her a little grace and understanding.
Someday the shoe will be on the other foot, I hope when that happens you will be treated as you have treated others.
HoneyTaster,
I think you're reading something into my post that I had not intended.
First, you imply that I'm the one throwing stones. This banishment isn't my doing, so my forgiveness matters not.
Second, I'd avoid lecturing me on the nuances of the golden rule. The shoe has been on the other foot, and my soul has and will pay dearly for my mistakes. You want branding... I spent many years as a special forces soldier and some of the people I need to ask for forgiveness are dead. Carry that around a while before you talk to me about shoes being on the other foot. Every day there are MANY people who take on the mantle of more responsibility--and more consequences--than they deserve. Whether you're an airline pilot or a sniper, a nuclear plant engineer or a school bus driver... Many of us expose ourselves to more consequences than we deserve and we mitigate those risks by putting systems, procedures, and discipline in place that limit or eliminate "honest mistakes."
Third, I'm a little sensitive to this issue because my contact info has been used inappropriately by well-known local providers.
Anyway, my point was that this wasn't an "honest mistake." The last straw--accidently posting a phone number--was a little honest boo-boo. But the wheels that led to it happening were set in motion long before today.
Our contact information is handled like it's candy, and it's not. It's gunpowder, and it's being left laying around like it's no big deal. The complacent attitude that led to her post was the sin, not the post itself.
If I bring a loaded gun onto a school bus, and I take it out of it's holster, and it goes off accidently, that is an honest mistake. It doesn't mean that I fired the gun intentionally, or with any malice. But I did create the circumstances which would increase the odds of a mishap ocurring. Taking the gun on the bus, carrying it loaded, taking it out... I took intentional actions that led to a result that, while unintended, were still quite predictable.
Trust me, I am not thrilled about the fact that this happened to Madison, and my personal fondness for her is outside the scope of this post. I am not thrilled that it has happened to ANY local provider. But this gunpowder is being left laying around in a negligent way. It's fricking everywhere. It's in the rafters, under the rug, between the mattresses... I patently reject these claims that no data is being kept--I am a personal, first-person, no-heresay witness to the fact that this is not true. It was inevitiable that a stray spark was going to ignite it.
All it would take is for a provider to say "I will always delete ALL traces of contact info by the end of the day of the scheduled meeting." Had this happened, there wouldn't have even been any phone number to accidently post. She had gunpowder on her PC, and the presence of that gunpowder set the stage for an honest mistake to become something much more.
This is a systemic, or cultural problem amongst the best known local providers. Madison is merely the unwitting victim of stepping on a mine in a minefield that she had only a small hand in laying.
succinct and accurate regarding the sloppy handling of all-too-confidential information.
laker
Omega,
We will have to agree to disagree. I believe Madison when she said it was an accident and apologized. You believe she was lying. There is no middle ground.
HT, I've tried explaining (exhaustively) my viewpoint...
I've really tried to be a gentleman in this debate but I have to put my foot down here. You continue to twist my words to try to make my viewpoint the polar opposite of yours, to what end I don't know. But I'm tired of it.
I do not think she was lying and I totally resent your continued attempts to imply that I do.
I will explain my view one more time as concisely as I can.
I am 100%... Not 99.9 or 99.8, I am 100.0% certain that Madison had NO intention of posting the phone number. I don't know how you keep construing that view as being in disagreement with you, because it is the EXACT same position as yours. The only person who has read ANY conotation into my posts that I think Madison is up to something is you. I know Madison, I like Madison (a lot) and I feel shitty about this whole thing too.
My point is that the environment in which an honest mistake could have dire consequences was already in place--the lot was already cast long before she posted. Whether she intended to or not, she had his contact info on her PC well after the date of their appointment had passed. The choice not to delete it was hers--not mine, not yours, not Sparks... The only person who could either choose to keep or delete that information was Madison. If she chooses to keep it (totally her prerogative) then she alone accepts the responsibility for the blast that may come from leaving gunpowder around.
If every Twin Cities provider deleted contact information after the day of the meeting, this honest mistake could not have happened. Period. If every Twin Cities provider committed to themselves that they would never just assume that an innocuous post was about them, and think it through, this honest mistake could not have happened. Period. If all of us who are part of on-line communities simply committed to each other that we will never cut and paste e-mails onto discussion boards without carefully sanitizing the content, this honest mistake could not have happened. Period.
This industry is a lot of fun, so we slip into the habit of not taking things too seriously. But data security is serious business. There's serious consequences for all of us. In October, I was the victim. Today it's Madison. Tomorrow it will be someone else--maybe you, maybe another provider... And it will not stop until we get back to an attitude about contact info that it is absolutely sacred.
--typo fix
-- Modified on 12/18/2003 1:13:18 AM
Omega, I'm sorry if I misunderstood you, but these are
your own words (go back and read them)
"Anyway, my point was that this wasn't an "honest mistake."
If something is not an "honest mistake" then is it not intentional?
I suggest that before you make a lot of public accusations about what Madison does and why she does it, you talk with her personally.
You didn't do anything against me personally and I have no axe to grind about you personally, I'm just trying to put some fairness and objectivity into this discussion.
But you're "pull quoting" to use a journalism term. You're taking one very short sentence out of a very long post and then applying it in a different context. The whole point of my nauseatingly long post was to develop an argument structure, not showcase that one sentence.
If I accidently run a red light, I can claim an "honest mistake" defense. But if I was drunk and I ran the red light, I can't. Exact same mistake. Exact same potential consequences. But the difference is that in one case I knowingly took actions that predisposed me to a much greater risk of making the "honest mistake." When does one cross the threshold from "honest mistake" to "negligent behavior?" At some point, the sequence of actions I took that led to the mistake are so flagrant, so obvious, so clearly likely to lead to an "honest mistake" that I can't really fall back on an "honest mistake" defense anymore.
Again, there's too much data being kept. There's too many denials from providers about how much of it's being exchanged in the "back channel." I have been privvy to back channel conversations that I wasn't supposed to hear, and I was stunned by the quality and quantity of info being exchanged. I have been the victim of my contact information being leaked, and I was stunned to find out how ready and willing the providers were to leak it. I'm not talking rumors or gossip, I'm talking about my own observations. There is simply too much data and too much complacency about it. The proof (this episode) is now on the table, and still there are some who say "there's no problem."
In summary, I don't think for a second that Madison did this intentionally. I don't think for a second that she doesn't feel really crappy about all this. You won't believe me if I tried to describe here how much I like Madison personally or how sad i am that things turned out this way. But the situation will never improve as long as providers see "the boys" as the only potential victims of these leaks. I'm trying to drive home the point that this flippant attitude about data security is just as likely--even more likely--to have real consequences for them than it does for us. Trust me, I take no joy in this reality.
"I suggest that before you make a lot of public accusations about what Madison does and why she does it, you talk with her personally."
I have made no accusations whatsoever about her actions or intentions. None. My posts have been based solely on facts that are in evidence--that a hobbyist's real name and phone number were posted. Nothing more.
I'm troubled by the belief that there's a resonable explanation--that if I talked to Madison about this, there'd be a reasonable explanation that would excuse this. I can excuse the accidental posting, I'm having trouble excusing the reality that the phone number was still laying around in a place where it could be accidently posted.
-- Modified on 12/18/2003 12:25:22 PM
I don't think anyone would misunderstand the context of what you said.
You make the statement that "I have made no accusations about her actions or intentions" yet if you would go back and reread your own posts you will find that you said:
"The fact is that the attitude of local providers about data secrecy has become totally complacent, and it is not just Madison." and:
"The problem is that local providers have become so complacent about keeping client info secret, that they're not really even outraged anymore when this happens. Instead of being THE cardinal sin, it's accepted as just part of the equation."
Now you can try to use your "pull quoting" defense all you want, but what you said is what you said. You CLEARLY made accusations about Madison's actions and attitudes (You also grouped all the rest of the providers in to the same accusation).
I guess you must be a mind reader since you can judge the attitutes of all the local providers.
I won't be responding to any more of your writing since it is quite obvious that you do not respond to reason.
Now I'm confused, you're arguing IN FAVOR of my point now.
There's no discussion of accused motives or accused actions involved. The fact that the data was left on her PC to begin with is not an accusation, it is an irrefutable fact. No one, not you, not Madison, no one has suggested that the event didn't actually happen.
Either the data ended up in the post through complacency or through ill will. I've never once implied it was ill will, I've said all along that it was complacency. And you keep arguing "no, no, no, it's complacency!" I agree! We agree!
How do I know providers are complacent about this data? There's a post to prove it. How do I know data is being left around after the meeting times have passed? There was a post to prove it.
I've not accused anyone of anything except having data around where an honest mistake can too easily release the information. This is undisputed fact, not something I conjured up.
You're using a variety of different techniques to argue against my position. You can quote sentences out of my posts all day long, the facts upon which my posts are based are still etched in stone and totally irrefutable.
-- Modified on 12/18/2003 5:41:14 PM
I feel compelled to post a response. First of all I believe anyone who knows Madison well at all would know that this was a mistake. Was it a bad mistake, yes, potentially disastrous. I truely hope the error was corrected in time so that no real damage was done.
I think we all have made a mistake or two inside or outside of this hobby, I know I have, and we all one day will probably be in need of forgiveness.
Communicating on these boards and through e-mail is a difficult thing. I know many of my posts do not read as I intend them to, this one probably included, and my e-mails often times get sent without being edited, some of the local ladies would know that fact. Words in print cannot convey emotion and thus it is dificult to judge a persons true meaning.
My comment is that the punishment should be proportional in relation to the offense. Moderated, yes, heck I have been moderated for asking an honest question, and may be again for this post. Banned for a period of time, probably yes again this was very serious. But banned for life, come on that seems to be too much.
The main point should be does Madison acknowledge the error and is she truely sorry for her actions? If the answer is yes then the punishment should be less severe in my opinion. But if she can not defend her position or post the appology how will one ever know? It would be a severe loss to the community if Madison is banned for life.
I tend to agree with Leaky that permanent banishment for life might go too far. This was a serious mistake and I know that as a result I will never see her even though I was planning to. Perhaps the loss of business will be more of a punishment.
There is an old saying that goes something like this... "there is an honor amongst thieves". I believe that saying also holds true amongst hobbyists and providers. There are certain lines that should never be crossed, intentional or not. Her actions are unforgiveable regardless of how sorry she is now. The mod and staff were 100% right in their actions and any softening of this stance would guarantee that this will happen again.
Here's one more thing that pisses me off. If she is so sick with the flu that she does not realize what she is typing, why is she posting on the other board for incall today? First she's posting private info, now she's going to share her flu? Really now, have we no decency?
-- Modified on 12/15/2003 7:59:01 PM
I do agree with some of what you say. Especially "The main point should be does Madison acknowledge the error and is she truely sorry for her actions? If the answer is yes then the punishment should be less severe in my opinion." Also, the severity of the punishment/ban is something that I have no problem discussing. What I have objected to is the defenses of her action [which you have not done] that seem to say its OK.
What I don't understand is how you guys can profess to "know" a person so well whose job it is to present you with a facade. Unless you have met this woman outside of her profession and have known her for years, you are foolish to claim any perception of her true motivations.
There have been other instances where there was disciplinary action taken against Madison by the Staff in a private manner. I'm not trying to "tattle" on her but I think people on this Board need to know that when the Staff takes such drastic action, there is usually a good reason.
Thanks SRVfan that pretty much sumns it all up in a nut shell,
I don't want to start anything, but if I remember correctly
Madison has been booted from the boards before for infractions
to the rules, I cannot remember what infractions were committed
but neverless she was penalized before. so as you said in your
post above, This was not the first time.
She has been kicked off of TER for several months in the past for things she has done. This was her SECOND offense.
With over 30,000 providers on TER, we really need to set an example. The number one priority of TER is to protect its members. If do not respect the privacy of our members, you're out of here. Period.
-- Staff
I’m not going to pass comment on Madison. But, if my cell phone number were posted on this board, I would be horrified. I can’t imagine how I would react to ANY of my business associates, co-workers or my boss -– or especially my in-laws -- seeing the number and recognizing it as belonging to me. Complete embarrassment and possibly a damaged career or marriage.
I try not to forget the fact that although providers are often sweet, wonderful, people, whom I like personally, they, too, have a private life, which almost always includes a “boyfriend”. I may feel as though I know her and of what she’s capable, but I never know what he’ll do or what is the true nature of their relationship.
On another note, as usual, insightful posts by Moonray and Omega.
That "boyfriend", "true nature" implication, if I am reading between the lines correct makes me sick. Not a lot more to say.
You would feel sick enough if it was YOUR number posted on the public board.
I had my earlier post removed beucase there was a provider who felt that I may have been making refrence to her in my post. I was trying to refer that moonrays statements were just a wee bit sweeping(and did not apply to ALL providers).
For SOME of us the closest thing we have to the "boyfriend" is our cats. Tiger has two, maddie has three, and I have one. IF I dare say so, my one is more handsome that Maddie's three and Tiger's two combined
I acknowledge for the majority of the business the boyfriend does exist,at least on some level, but then again that is a huge sweeping statement to say we ALL have one in the backround. That is like saying all providers come from rough backrounds, we all have drug problems, we are all dishonest, we were all abused ect.I am sure you had it all figured out
Just when I think I have it all figured out all the reasons men partake in us girls I meet someone that blows all my theorys out of the water..there are no sweeping statements that will ever be truly accurate in this industry. Maybe that is the joy of it..never being able to figure it all out.
Catherinespiga: “I had my earlier post removed beucase there was a provider who felt that I may have been making refrence to her in my post. I was trying to refer that moonrays statements were just a wee bit sweeping(and did not apply to ALL providers).”
I thought I made it clear that my comments were directed toward a relatively small subset of the total local provider population. It is rather ironic how most of the providers in question consider themselves much “higher class” than the more discrete girls they so often refer to with such disdain.
How much more sweeping can you get than to proclaim that all hobbyists and providers fall into one of two categories, and that you can judge which category each person belongs in by reading their posts?
-- Modified on 12/16/2003 3:57:25 PM
I feel sorry for Madison. I wouldn't wish permanent banishment on anyone. The first time, she apologized and was back on within a month.
Catherine: I'm wondering if srvfan took out your post because he found it offensive, I certainly did. I doubt they remove posts for any reason but their own. At this rate, you'll be naming worst and best of the Twin Cities 2003 LOL. Catherine, you're no better or worse than any lady in this business. We're all just flavors.
Bashing down local providers in your market just alienates you from those you might want to get to know. Talking drug addicts, the crypt of cryps database and low class internet girls... well, just isn't called for. If LE reads this, maybe they'll even try and find out exactly what info you do know.
You continually bash every provider that you don't know, don't hang out with and/or hear bits and pieces about through gossips. If a man said the things you've said, he'd get strung up. If you don't have anything nice to say, why not be congenial. Men have different tastes on different days.
I don't see anyone else on this board cutting down other escorts other than you and I find it truly amazing people put up with it.
-- Modified on 12/16/2003 3:24:15 PM
First, I haven't read all of Catherine's posts, so I can't really confirm or dispute her bashing. I have read her posts defending Madison though, and I've also read reviews indicating they do 2 girl sessions together.
Here's something I find semi-amusing: Prior to the currently cozy relationship between those two, Madison used to verbally criticize and question Catherine, in blatant attempts to keep guys from seeing her. Either Catherine never became aware of this fact, or Catherine does indeed practice what she preaches regarding forgiveness.
Wonder which it is?
The post in question:
Can I ask you who you're talking about in this post please???
I only know ONE girl who does this, and in my opinion she hardly A list. I do know that some of us keep a shitload of data on the local rapist and a few other slime boys. So if you are a good boy there is nothing to worry now is there?CATHERINE
She is also bright enough to know that personal info should not be shared. To give her some credit she deletes emails faster than I do. If she had a datbase of personal info then how come 3 our of five times when I ask her about a client she cant remember him? I know a local provider that if you call her on a refrence she will remember him even if it was three years ago. She can even tell you what he likes for breakfast! Now that is some database!!CATHERINE
JUST SAY NO to giving out unnecessary information to providers. Most providers don’t ask for or require it, so next time you’re asked just move on down the line to the next girl. MOONRAY
I would wonder about girls who will see ANY tom, dick or harry. I also wonder about the girl who doesn't care who walks through her door. Then again there are two types of hobbyist and two types of girls I guess we know which one you are asn which girl you prefer? If only girls who see all the low end slime knew waht they are missing by not holding their potiential clients to a higer reagrd...
I don't mean to exploit Madison's misfortunate to promote another agenda, but I do have to say this.
Every few months local providers propose a hobbyist review system or some kind of local verification database.
The next time ANY provider proposes ANY hobbyist review system or suggests creating a locally based verification service, simply remember this event.
I think the providers should have a hobbyist review board. It would force us to be on our best behavior, and don't we expect the providers to give us their best. It's only fair, and as Autumn mentioned a million posts back, there are risks on both sides
I've stated my views in a couple of other posts. I am utterly dumbfounded by the "she made a mistake, suspend her for a couple of months and move on" argument.
Isn't it apparent that this sort of mistake (intentional or not) could result in lives being ruined. Let me clarify - we're NOT talking about major inconveniences or lost business or having to assume a new alias or change your cell phone number.... we're talking about the possibility of losing your job or your wife or being restricted to seeing your kids on alternate weekends.... or all of the above. THAT is why TER has adopted a zero-tolerance rule. It is sort of like the airlines adopting extreme security measures to prevent the possibility of another 9/11. Obviously (and objectively speaking) thousands dying in 9/11 is much worse than 1 life being ruined - but not to the person who's life was just ruined.
Much like the airlines and the general public can live with inconvenienced passengers and longer lines, if it means reduced risks of 9/11 ever happening again.... it appears that TER and most hobbyists can live without a valued and highly thought-of Provider, if it means reduced risk of having their real name, phone, address, etc broadcast on the internet.
TER recognizes that mistakes such as Madison's could have CATASTROPHIC consequences and THAT is why they say "no second chances" when it comes to divulging personal information.
I agree, and for the life of me, I don't understand some of the points of view discussed in this thread, but I do recognize that it is a free country and different opinions are what makes the world go round. That said, I will not be commenting further on this topic. (Plus I couldn't say it any better than Moonray and Omega.)
ZERO tolerance doesn't do one thing to stop accidents!
Accidents are accidents! Think about it, when you had your last accident, would zero tolerance of it changed one thing?
You may not like Madison, but's let's be intelectually honest here.
On the contrary, I like Madison a lot.... like REALLY a lot! I have been trying to get on her schedule for her last trip to Chicago so this isn't personal vengence speaking.
Please read Omega's post regarding "accidents". He had a great post about a gun going off on a bus.... It (the gun going off) may have been an accident, but bringing a loaded gun on to a school bus was deliberate and negligent.
All right buster, I'll bite. You know that I respect your opinion, so please don't take this wrong... Looking for honest debate, not a flame war.
In light of current events, how would this work? If it's hard to keep a little data from leaking out, try keeping a lot of data from leaking out.
As for fairness... I agree with Tiger's earlier post that the standards don't seem to apply both ways. Isn't that just the way it is? The Better Business Bureau doesn't keep dirt on consumers, it keeps dirt on businesses. Same with the AG's office.
It's not easy being the reviewed party, I admit that. But businesses simply have to acknowledge that having that watchdog in place ultimately benefits them in the end. Independent, one-sided reviews promote consumer confidence, thus creating more business in the end.
I'm a perfect example... The presence of TER was the SINGLE factor that encouraged me to get into this. And, if there was some kind of verification database in place, my personal privacy requirements would take me out of the game.
In other words, were it not for TER, and not for the LACK of a central data base, my SIGNIFICANT financial contribution to this market would be gone, plain and simple. Who would that absnce hurt? Not me... Not you... It would only hurt the pocketbooks of the providers that I've seen.
That's my point... It isn't always about what's fair, it's about what is really in the provider's best interest. Madison's unfortunate circumstances clearly show how having too much info laying around for too long can hurt, even devestate the provider. Sparks isn't the one who ultimately fell victim of keeping too much gunpowder laying around the house, it was Madison. I am sincere when I say that saddens me. But in the end, the provider's best interests are better served by keeping less info than more.
We are a consumer-driven culture. In a free market system, efforts to regulate the behavior of consumers usually fails, and always ultimately hurt only the service providers in the industry involved, not the consumers.
That was well stated (as usual)! I too would be gone from this hobby if it weren't for TER acting as the Better Business Bureau of "the hobby."
I vote OmegaZap for President!
"I vote OmegaZap for President!"
Then you're an idiot L2R... ;^)
If nominated, I will not run. If elected, I will not serve.
As a newcomer to this, I haven't had the bad experiences that many others have. However, I thought I'd throw in my opinion for whatever it's worth.
a) Forgiveness is important. We all make mistakes. I have hurt people, often people I care about through my mistakes, even though I didn't intend to. In some cases, I will never be able to atone adequately for my transgressions, even though they were not intentional. So I am very willing to forgive so long as I don't believe it to be intentional and the mistakes do not show a pattern of repeating.
b) At the same time we have to be willing to accept the consequences of our actions. I have often paid a high price for my mistakes and truly have only myself to blame most of the time.
c) Discretion and respect for privacy should be of the highest priority for everyone involved in this. I try to be very careful in everything I submit and double check everything I write before I submit it. A lot of hobbyists are upset about what they see as misuse of their personal information by providers. Perhaps it was inevitable that something like this was going to happen and someone was going to pay a price for it. The question is are we going to learn from this or is it just going to lead to further acrimony?
d) The one thing that I would like is for us somehow to be able to hear directly from Madison. I feel everyone should be able to speak in their own defense. All I know about her is what I have read on TER. Some others know her much better and have spoken up about their knowledge but it's still not the same as getting the information firsthand. Obviously, this is not possible given the penalty that TER imposed.
e) TER staff states this is not her first offense in this area and that she was suspended for it before. At this point, it becomes a lot harder to think the penalty is unfair. You could perhaps make a good case for a longer suspension, say a year or two, but whether that is in practice really different from a lifetime ban is something I do not have enough knowledge about to offer an opinion.
Let me preface my comments by stating that I am aghast that a provider would let a situation develop where this could happen. That being said and having been myself in situations where a minor error can rapidly snowball, (I was remarkably enough a nuclear engineer on a US Navy submarine) can see how this could happen, does that mean I am opposed to the decision of Staff? That is an issue on which I will not take a position; simple reason that this is not a democracy, TER may do here as they wish.
It seems to me that we are as a group missing a major point here, TER like any private enterprise has the absolute right to serve or not serve anyone they wish. We can debate the moral aspect of this till the end of the earth and accomplish nothing given the stated policy of TER. We may or may not agree with that policy and we will vote with our money and/or support in the form of reviews.
It is unfortunate that this happened; it is especially unfortunate for Sparks because he is the one here with his ass on the line. We can all agree that he is the one with the most to lose in this situation, but who among us may be next?
We are now faced with a dichotomy, how does a provider protect herself from LE and assorted sickos while at the same time assuring her clients confidentiality? It does not seem that there is an easy answer to this the two objectives are mutually exclusive.
There has to be a middle ground that provides safety to the providers, but protects the identity of the clients, it unfortunately requires that one of the two parties to the transaction must put themselves in a position of weakness and trust the other party to do as they state, immediately after the meeting dispose of the data and in no way share the information.
This then may lead to a breakdown of the referral system which will then severely limit the flexibility of both provider and client to the point where you will end up no practical solution except to either risk poor return on investment or patronize one or two providers on a long term basis.
Hmmmm, it seems like peace in the Middle East will be easier to solve than this one.
I leave this discussion to people smarter than I.
We are seeing two widely divergent points of view here. One view from those I will call the forgive and forget group and the second from those I will call the accept full responsibility and consequences of your actions group. Neither group is right or wrong. They are just two incompatible moral/ethical views of life. I don't have any ill will toward the forgive and forget group but I can't afford to trust my personal life to ladies who are in that group. I can only trust ladies who accept full responsibility and consequences of their actions because I am afraid that only they will be careful enough in their actions to provide me with the level of personal safety I require. I have written down the names of all the ladies who have posted from the forgive and forget perspective and made that the start of my personal "black list." Two moved straight from the to-do list.