Is it a full moon?

Would it be too much to ask that, if you feel driven to share a newspaper story about the hobby with the board that you read it first? Having done so, if you noticed a person being identified by name, stifle the urge to post it?

Yes, I know - it's a public story. Yes, I know, many people have seen it. It's also not a new story, unless you just weren't aware that people get arrested for prostitution and patronizing prostitutes all the time. If this is news to you, please contact me as I have some prime Florida real estate I'd like to discuss with you.

Substitute YOUR name for the one you saw - now would you post it?

This isn't the place.

All or nothing - if you think it's a good thing to post, then I'll allow links to articles that name names, but it's both sides - providers and hobbyists. Equal treatment.

It's a newspaper article.  Which in one way you seem to understand, but you still react as if it was something else.

As far as your last question, if it was my name in the article, the very LAST concern I would have is that it was posted to a TER board.  It's already in the newspaper and online for friggin' sake.

Every so often, someone posts a link to the St Paul prostitution photos and no one has ever had a problem with it.  I think an article in a major metropolitan area's largest newspaper is well within bounds.

I say we all should resist the human temptation to be so curious about what happened to whom.  Especially in these endeavors.  Doing so is FAR  worse than those pain-in-the-ass rubber-neckers who slow down on an otherwise clear highway to check out what happened across the median!

You'd think with all the LE activity last year that members would think twice before posting names, addresses etc.

It's just DUMB !

I vote NO.  On both counts.

Are the PO and HO boards watched over with the same scrutiny to make sure real names are not posted?

Well, for many who post on here, this might be their only encounter with an actual newspaper (electronic, I know).  

We shouldn't stifle their first experience with actually reading something news worthy.

I read the article. I know you said you recognize that it is already a public story, but the fact is it is a public story. Would you edit a post on this board if it were about Tiger Woods? That's a public story.
The fact is I bet less than 20% of the members of this board subscribe to the Star Tribune and knew about the article. I thought I was providing useful information paricularly to the newbies who aren't aware of what is going on in St. Paul.

You're the moderator so if you think it's a problem you can do whatever you want with it.

If there is a ban on posting links to media reports of this nature, that would be fine.  But I guess I've never been aware of this policy until now.

Last spring/summer when the MFP blow-up occurred, there were links to news reports all over this message board.  There aren't many folks here who weren't exposed to Tiger's real name.  

In the past, I've seen links on this Board to listings of johns busted in St. Paul.

There was a link on here a week or 2 ago about a sting in Mankato that just became public.  The news story that was linked contained names, as most of them will won't they?  

I guess I thought that sometimes (repeat "sometimes") these things are posted as an alert or warning for everyone on here, both guys and gals, at least that's the way I take it.  And you know how it would go over if someone comes on and posts something like:

"There was a sting in Mankato, be careful"

The replies would come back with comments such as: "unless you can prove it with a link, you're full of shit" and the like.

There needs to be some sort of balance between not outing real names and keeping members of the Board informed of what might be happening out there.  I don't know what the answer is.

Rather than ask the masses on this board what is approriate, you need to decide what TER's rules are regarding such posts. The very same article you referenced as the reason for deleting a thread in an earlier post has been posted on this board before.

Do they fit under TER policy that no provider out a client or no client out a hobbyist?

Under your current policy, none of the articles that were linked to from the June 2009 Minnesota Nice Guys and My Fast Pass busts would have been allowed on this board. All those busts involved known TER hobbyists and providers yet previous moderators allowed them to post.

I say if the article is not outing a TER reviewed provider or board participant or a known TER hobbyist through their handle let the article post!

My only beef is consistency. If you are going to protect providers, you got to protect hobbyists too and still think the "ed" post from a few weeks ago should have been removed. The provider in question could have easily handled that situation by reporting details on the provider board or back channel with other providers. Why allow some third party hobbyist or provider hiding behind an alias blabber unverified information about another hobbyist on the board?

The article, while naming names, doesn't link to a member here so it is now active.

if he contacts me, i'll pull it again

as you might have read from previous posts not every hobbyist is willing to pay for VIP membership for various reasons. These hobbyists are still members of the community and need to be informed of potential trouble related to busts when deciding who to see. I see no trouble linking to articles containing already public information on this board. Censoring links to such articles or information on this board is akin to closing the barn door after the horses have left.

That of a "lurker", "cheap ass", "bottom feeder". I'm old. 50+. I became interested in this hobby last spring, and through (big ass search engine) found this site. Not in a position to pony up monthly fees I didn't join, just figured what I could glean for free would be good enough. Plus I thought it was easier/safer than the reality.

About 2 days later, the "nice guys" story broke. I saw it on tv, figured it was just a story because it was a big deal. Ratings booster. I then "lurked" around this board and had my eyes opened widely. It took about a month before I posted a question about "bad timing" on exploring the hobby.

I've come to know and respect opinions of many people here. Marie, you are too wild for me, but you are clearly a special person. Vorlon, I wish I knew you in person, I would learn alot form you and we would get along very well. TCButtman, you crapped on me twice, and I'm sure there's a place for you but where I don't know. For the record, I do have balls, but am very selective where I use them! (you wondered at one point)

I can truly see both sides, and as usual for me I see things practically and based on perspective. It helped me greatly to know the opinions on the board, and to find reference here to information I didn't run across in my mainstream. It was public information, therefore I'm certain LE already had read them. (that's the kind of thing we pay them for right?) I believe that by having information here that is not "NEW" will only help strengthen and improve the hobby. I know that I'm a better more educating potential member of the hobby (no buttman, I haven't made the plunge yet, but will soon...ie no reviews yet) because of the information I've gotten here.

No, I don't want my identity broadcast, but if I can't become educated, I'll make mistakes that will endanger those here I would hope to be friends. If I do something illegal, my identity will become known. If it ever does, it will be embarrassing to go through that, but if we can learn from each others mistake's, because we share what is already known and public, then aren't we helping ourselves?

My opinion from the outside ready to jump in, is that already public information can only help us learn and protect us.

On the other hand posts like a few days ago where someone asked for suggestions on sources of illegal activities where some quickly answered with a list of members here thinking they were helpful??? They should never make the board!

For those that want to yell at me since I don't get PM, you can ..... mnrookie50@yahoo .... For the rest, thank you so much for being here, sharing information and opinions, with your help and that of some ladies here I've traded email with, I believe I can soon go forward, relaxed, and enjoy!

I think if the story makes it easy to tie someone's hobby name, TER id, etc. to their real name then it should come down.  Otherwise let it stay.  Yes, it's far from foolproof and there are going to be times, such as during the events of the past summer, when most will know the real names.  It's an imperfect world.

Previous article posted with names

In future such a link, if it outs a known member of this community, will not be permitted. Unless it's you, of course.

has a forum devoted to busts and stings.
Why do you put all of your eggs in just one basket for information?

Do you think TER is the end all be all for learning about the hobby in your back yard?

So, don't pay for VIP, go and belong to the other board (in addition to this one) and you can share and read all the information on the 'potential trouble' on that board.

If you are not aware of this other website, email me and I will share that with you and anyone that is interested in the hobby (which is bigger than TER).

Good luck!
SG

Thanks Puck. That is, if you knew it was me.

I saw a BP ad featuring a girl who looked like a provider who previously had big-time LE problems. I wanted to ask if other TER members could confirm my suspicions. My only intention was to suggest the advisability of caution in regard to this particular provider - most especially for members of the board who may not have been around long enough to be aware of the history.

I did NOT include a link to any media reports. To my way of thinking, a simple "yup, sure does look like her. She got busted big time" would have been a sufficient reply. That said, if information is already public, I can't see the sense in keeping it off the board.

That includes all discussion related to the hobby in the State of Minnesota including busts and stings.

As far as I know, TER has not banned discussion related to busts and stings on any of their boards. Furthermore, TER has not banned links to televisions reports, newspaper articles or other media related to busts and stings.

If a provider gets arrested, is her career over? Does it help the community to publicize it so that she will never get any more business? How about rumormongering where the speculation that a provider was busted ruins her business because, well, everyone assumes that her denials are lies. Maybe a hobbyist or another provider with a grudge starts the rumor.

Does starting or propagating an unproven rumor help anyone? What purpose does it serve?

Inquiring minds want to know.

. . . ruin a provider's career? I must be too new to all this to understand it.

I don't see why she can't pick up where she left off after she pays her fine or does her time. Does it ruin it in the eyes of a hobbyist to think that she might have done something ILLEGAL? Can't have THAT around here, now can we. . . .

I have a gut feeling I'm asking a shtoopid question, but I'm still curious. . . .

Propagaing unsubstantiated rumors helps no one and can, of course, be hurtful and harmful.

"If a provider gets busted, is her career over?" A fair question, a good question. There are busts and then there are BUSTS.

A provider does high-volume incall directly across the street from a daycare in a house with several girls working. She gets busted, and it's a high profile bust. That suggests, shall we say, a lack of common sense or disregard for basic safety and security. That's a siutation seemingly "asking for" a bust.

And it's different and suggests the advisability of extra caution verus a provider getting busted, for instance, in an LE sting at a hotel.

There is always a heavy sided stigma to a provider that is busted vs. a client caught in a bust.  Not a perfect world in the industry as far as being treated fairly on this point.

Once a provider gets busted and it becomes known she is now subject to ultra scrutiny.  Did she cooperate?  Did her computer get compromised and along with that her client list, oh yeah, her phone records, email contact list, all plays into the client banning her from now on.  If she changes her name, clients think nothing of connecting the dots on the board and prolonging her hell that she is trying to get out of.  Make a living as some who are in this industry are doing a work that amounts to the only thing available to them at the given time in their life.  But clients on TER continue to think it is their job to connect the dots and make the ones that have to come back have a miserable time, alert LE that they may be breaking their probation and loose business.

I don’t buy BUST vs bust playing into the scenario that clients have the right to put the provider through when she decides to come back.   Somehow they have to prove themselves over and over again that they are back and safe to see.  Is it any wonder that providers go to great lengths to not let out this information?  I had a really close friend that was busted three times and it didn’t get out.  She was ultra high profile but now retired, no one would believe it if I wrote her name because she was so highly reviewed and guys still drool over her wishing they could have seen her before she retired.  Did she screen?  Hell yah!  

A person can do everything right but still get caught by extenuating circumstances.  Clients wives outing the provider to police, management of an apartment building, nosey neighbors, stupid clients at hotels and jealous clients that are told no.  Any number of these things can go wrong for a provider and she doesn’t have any control over it.

It is heavily one sided when it comes to a bust that it will be very hard on the provider vs client who is treated like Poor SOB, he just had bad luck, should have done his homework.  

How many clients changed their names? How many providers went on TER and connected the dots for the other providers that so and so changed their handle from Billybob to Joeblow?   Is it okay for the clients to connect the dots?  If so, can the providers be afforded for their safety the same latitude?

You brought up two different issues.

1. What if a provider gets arrested?

2. What if a hobbyist or another provider starts a false rumor?

Which question are you asking?

My apologies if I have taxed your comprehension skills. Perhaps you could respond in 2 different posts.

Both men and women are solely responsible for their own safety. There is a certain amount of risk we all assume by partaking in this hobby. Part of that risk is becoming publicly exposed should we become victims of LE activity.

I am sure we all take certain steps to minimize our risk factor. Part of my steps are to inform myself of local LE activity and to avoid providers who are high risk.

I would not want to see a provider who was busted partly because of the risk involved and the fear she could be flipping for LE. Similarly I am sure a provider would not want to see a hobbyist who has been busted because of the risk involved and the fear that he could be flipping for LE.

To answer your questions:

I highly doubt a provider's career is over if she gets arrested unless she is an agency madam or quite reckless with the way she conducts herself. Similarly I highly doubt a john's ability to see another provider is limited because he was busted. There are just too many uninformed fish in the pond but that should not come at the expense of those who want to be informed.

In the odd case that a provider cannot continue her career after an arrest or a john cannot see another provider after an arrest, well that is part of the risk we assume when we choose to participate in this hobby.

As far as rumor mongering goes. None of the threads discussed in the past few days are rumors. All have been backed up with cold, hard facts linked to newspaper articles or television reports unless you are alleging that newspapers and televisions are making these stories up. Allowing links to readily available public information is a good way to debunk any false allegations or rumors by both hobbyists and providers alike. It is hard to call something a rumor when you can back it up with evidence or facts!

The "ed" thread from several weeks ago on the other hand is what I would call a rumor in my opinion. None of it has been backed up by facts or concrete information verifying the allegations. All you have is a hobbyist or provider alleging that some provider got busted and that he / she helped the busted provider obtain an attorney. In the process the poster was informed that the hobbyist who helped LE bust the provider went by the name of "ed" and had references that she verified.

All I can do and probably most hobbyists do is make a best guess as to who the provider subject to LE activity is. Such guessing games are not beneficial to both providers and hobbyists in the long run. It only adds to the domino effect that is created by rumors when information available is limited. Any innocent provider would not be happy if she lost business because a potential client incorrectly assumed she was the subject of LE activity because limited information for the hobbyist to make an informed decision was available. If you reverse the situation, any hobbyist would be upset as well if a provider refused to see him because she incorrectly assumed that he was the subject of LE activity due to the limited information available to her.

Information only helps all of us make better decisions, the more the better.

If you are linking to an article that is outing a providers real name and address you may as well out her on the board.  The same for a gent that is busted.  That is where the problem lies.  Am I correct, Puck?

PERSONAL INFORMATION
Posting personal information of members or provider, including content copied from their emails and Private Messages, is grounds for BANISHMENT.

Particularly when it is done from behind a never or seldom before seen alias.  Far too often it is done for no reason other than malice on the part of the poster.

Factual information is another matter.  No, an arrest is not the kiss of death for a provider's career but I think most of us would like to know if the person we are considering seeing has a run-in with the law.  That of course goes both ways.

Given the nature of what we do here, I don't know that there is a good way to balance everything.  Where do you draw the line between one person's right to avoid LE trouble and another person's right to privacy and discretion?  Does it make a difference if one person cautious in their practices but they get some bad luck versus someone who is habitually careless?

I don't know.  I'm just fumbling along as best I can trying to make sure I think about what I might do before I do it.

Linking to an article is not outing a provider or hobbyist. It is making available already known public information to users of this board and backing it up with evidence that an event occurred. It is within the law. Why do you think LE makes that info available and newspapers publish it. Here we are talking about stings, arrests and charges.

That is far different than physically posting personal information or copying and pasting info from emails and private messages which TER has banned. There are many reasons why TER has banned such posting.

You also cannot lift a provider's or hobbyist's name or address and post it on the board without including a link. Not only are you committing plagiarism but you are making unsubstantiated allegations without providing evidence to back it up.

I have never heard of a hobbyist getting banned by TER for providing a link to an article for the benefit of others. But several years ago a well liked, well reviewed local provider was banned permanently from TER because she posted a clients personal info on the board. That client was not arrested by LE, instead she had a disagreement with him. In that case his info was still considered private.

There is a big difference between physically posting personal information and linking to a newspaper article, television report or LE website.

and if I do, it's only to read the sports and entertainment sections and Best Buy ads. I only follow national news on TV and the web so if a local bust occurs, I'm totally unaware. That's where this board can be invaluable in keeping board members informed of important busts. I agree that there are busts and then there are BUSTS. I don't think we need to know every time some girls' hockey coach from Wayzata (or wherever) gets busted but this past summer's events in Minneapolis were a 'Need to Know' situation for many followers of the TER MN discussion board. For many, there was only one degree of separation between themselves and the protagonists of those 'busts' and TER was the first place where many of us learned of them.

Not everyone who hobbies in Minnesota is from here and they don't have ready access to important bust information. Similarly, during the massive Phoenix bust of 2008 there was a large cadre of out of state hobbiests who wouldn't have known as soon as they did of the bust, yet they were on a 'Need to Know' status and the postings and news source links on the Phoenix board served as a valuable pipeline of information.

Puck, I trust your discretion in sorting out these types of posts and hope you don't arbitrarily omit every post dealing with local busts.

DS


'Relax, it's just sex!'

If a provider is being discussed in a thread and someone posts in that thread a link to a news article where her real name is mentioned, is that really so different from simply posting hey [name of provider] is [real name from news article]; she got busted last night.  Does that one extra click make it acceptable within TER's rules?  Should it?