OK I was angry about the MDL deal and I did say more than I should have. I feel bad that your business was affected and will be more careful in the future. I'm sorry NM.
In the thread below, NetMichelle expresses her disappointment that I let her thread go on the way it did as long as it did. I'd like to respond to that and to solicit the community's views on what should be acceptable in posts on this board.
The guidelines say, in general, that nastiness and name calling will not be tolerated. There's a fine line, in my view, between healthy expression of opinion and nastiness. As a "child of the 60s" who helped close down the university and who screamed "Racist Pig" at the cops, and who was called "commie scum" and worse by the powers-that-be -- and who survived it all to grow up to be a contributing member of society, I tend to err on the side of letting people express themselves. Feelings and opinions are not facts. Let it all hang out.
I consider these boards to be a laboratory of an exciting social experiment: people are actually talking openly about prostitution -- something that certainly has never previously taken place in my lifetime. In its own way, I consider what is happening here to be similar to the beginnings of the civil rights movement, the gay rights movement and the women's rights movements. In all of those movements, discussion in small groups of ideals, standards, behavior and so forth came first and then led to broader social initiatives. What we're doing here may lead to legalization and eventual true professionalization and socialization of the "hobby." It may not. But we won't know unless we do it.
In every nascent social movement, there are pioneers -- the folks who stick their necks out, who push the envelope, who cut the pathway for others to follow. I consider NetMichelle to be one of those pioneers: she is fearless, she is dedicated, she is way ahead of the curve. Lots of people like her, lots of people are scared by her, lots of people don't like her: but that's the point, folks -- she makes your brain get off its duff and begin thinking! And for that, I congratulate her and say Thank You!
Michelle -- if I've unfairly allowed you to get bruised, I apologize. But I sincerely don't think I have.
And folks -- if I'm wrong, tell me. I know there are loads of things said here that are totally assholic, in bad taste and less than "nice." But if they're not gratuitously nasty, I let them stand -- they are part of the mix that we have; hopefully, wiser heads will prevail and will put them in their place. BUT --If what you want is a girly-boy board with no controversy and only nice-nice things said, let me know and we'll do it.
-- Modified on 7/28/2004 2:12:42 PM
Turk
I agree with your post totally. Not to compare you to SRVFAN, but he like to take the stance of let the thread run it course unless the "animals" got out of hand. The he would step in and coral the animals back in line or as we joked about it as the "farmer mentality".
In general TER's rules on discussion board should be followed. Number one, be honest, don't candy coat it. Let get rid of the pettyness and name calling and most of threats.
Net Michelle has taken hits along with me for past issues which are now dead and DO NOT need to be re-hashed again. Not everyone likes her or min posting style for that matter. We are both very outspoken and have both broken new ground from both sides of the fence.
I look to this board for information both giving and receiving, and general commradery in the hobby. I have met and talked with a number of active hobbyist on this board which brings this hobby to a new level.
-- Modified on 7/28/2004 3:21:57 PM
-- Modified on 7/28/2004 3:22:29 PM
In addition, I can totally connect with your satement; "she is fearless, she is dedicated, she is way ahead of the curve. Lots of people like her, lots of people are scared by her, lots of people don't like her: but that's the point, folks -- she makes your brain get off its duff and begin thinking!"
I enjoy reading this forum and joining in the experiment just as much as anyone else. That is why I pay my membership dues.
I have problem when people who don't know me continue to sling mud repeatedly in the forum in which I advertise. I have excellent reviews. I am the third ranked escort in Los Angeles for performance which is saying a lot, because there are more women who escort in Los Angeles than here. My clients seek me out because I can give them what others can't or won't. I had ALL of my appointments cancel, except for one, because of all this shit. I hope you guys are happy and congradulating yourselves. You all did a brilliant job. I too will now join the list of other escorts who are choosing to not post their schedules here, and will advertse through other venues when coming to this town.
-- Modified on 7/28/2004 5:39:45 PM
-- Modified on 7/28/2004 4:56:25 PM
Anyone who cancelled an appointment with Michelle because of this discussion should reconsider. How can you check out her website and her reviews, decide you like what you find enough to make an appointment, and then change your mind because of a couple of comments on this board? How does this cancel out 3 pages of great reviews?
I'm truly sorry this happened to you. I don't think you deserved this kind of treatment whatsoever.
The one thing in all this that has really upset me is the repeated, unrelenting use of the term "scary".
I've been around a while and I have never, ever heard any hobbyist say they were scared of, or intimidated by, Michelle in any way. Either publicly on this board, or privately by PM, I'd like to hear from one hobbyist who is scared of Michelle.
Someone says "she has a scary reputation" which usually translates into "her bold sexuality is too coarse for my taste, but I don't want that discomfort attributed to me, so I'll generalize it and say 'I've heard she makes others uncomfortable.'" Of course, in most discussions, no one ever has the courage to stand up and say "Oh really? Who exactly?"
Here's the tragedy of all of this. People who are NOT opponents of NetMichelle's have unwittingly become the vehicles of her demise. They've fallen for the propoganda without realizing they did it, without meaning to do it. What I mean is that now, EVERYONE is saying she's scary. Turkana has stated "lots of people are scared by her" as fact, yet it appears to have no basis in fact. MissMN, presumably posting in support of, or at least saying she identifies with Michelle's situation, again repeats the sentence as if it is fact.
NetMichelle being scary has become a fact. It started out as so benign a comment that it hardly qualifies as even a rumor... And days later, it has gone past rumor, and has just become part of the fabric of the dialog... so widely accepted as fact that even those who are neutral, or even pro-Michelle, have embedded it into their arguments as an accepted fact. Yet the underlying accusation, that Michelle is scary, has never been supported in any way, by anyone, in any context.
We're debating mechanics here when we should be debating something deeper. We're debating WHICH techniques should be used to unfairly assassinate someone's character, and avoiding the core issue, and that is, should we be unfairly assassinating people's character?
I'm not talking about a ripooff provider or a scam artist or a pot-stirring trouble maker here, I'm talking about a legitimate provider with a legitimate track record.
The only thing she has ever been guilty of was her heat-of-the-moment, overly-emotional post about kicking the perpetrator's ass a while back... And if you dropped her an e-mail today, I'll bet she'd say "I shouldn't have said that, if I knew then what Omega was going to take the time to learn over the next few days, I never would have said that."
Not to be a smart-ass, but don't forget that many of you who are jumping on the "get Michelle" bandwagon now are the very same people who were on the "get the abuser" bandwagon a month ago. It turned out that you were too quick to judge then, and I suggest you're too quick to judge now.
I was BY FAR the most vocal opponent of the way MDL's reputation was being damaged a few weeks ago, and it was pretty friggin' lonely there. And I'll stand here again as the most vocal opponent of the way Michelle's reputation is being blasted in retaliation for the previous event.
I realize I'm standing almost alone on this (again) but that's OK. But I will stand, even if no one else will.
Well for what it's worth (which may be nothing) I agree with you completely.
Omega, as I was reading this over the past couple of days, I was wondering just how to, and what would be the most appropriate way to throw in my 2 cents. It appears you have done that for me - good work!
What I was most disappointed in was that the thread didn't dies a quick death as it should have, certain members of this community had to keep on throwing their piece in, with malicios intent to damage Michelle's reputation, her business, and her livelihood. That is uncalled for, and becomes an unfriendly - and just plain hostile - environment far too quickly.
Also, as I recall, in the previous incident (which has come and gone, as it should) no names were ever mentioned by Michelle publicly. She was not posting with malicious intent at all, rather to try to protect other providers in the TC area. I find that to be a noble thing, and although the facts were pretty hazy, and somewhat misleading in the long run, she had enough information to make a warning post to other providers. If providers do not protect each other, who will - the police? lol
I, too, believe Turkana does a fine job in moderating this board, and while it can get childish at times, so does life. What I ask is that the people that frequent this board, and post often, refrain themselves from throwing out accusations that are damaging to a provider when they are based on nothing more than personal opinion about someone they have never themselves met. I fully expect to see posts about rip-offs, cash and dash, bait and switch, etc., but it is extremely disappointing to go to the old junior high ways of reading the writing on the bathroom wall and taking it for fact, and embellising the lie as a personal vendetta.
Let's show some restraint, and TRY to make this a positive place for everyone who visits here!
Turkana
I for one do not come here to change the world. Mostly it is to aid me in having a good time with a good looking lady at a good price. These squabbles should be ended once they start to be repetitive (the same old same old). I usually dislike NetMichelle's posts, but the idea of criticizing her over and over seems pointless. The whole thread became pileing on. Let them voice an opinion, then move on. There where 40 post! The ones near the end were not read by lurkers, only by those involved in the fight. They can always continue their petty attcks off board with PMs.
I can't believe that all but one of netmichelle's appointments cancelled over this nonsense.
When I review the original thread from back in June I see that netmichelle essentially made a statement that she would have liked to have booked an appointment with the alleged physical abuser of women because she would have kicked his ass. In other words if you try to physically abuse her she is going to kick your ass or make a good attempt at it. So on the basis of that statement she is scary. I would think that many of you would be ready to help her kick the ass of someone who was trying to physically abuse women.
On the other side of the fence I wonder how many hobbyists have wanted to kick the ass of some ROB(Rip Off Bitch) and/or her driver who ran out the door with their money. I know that I have posted on both the National and Southern California Boards that although I would not kick her ass I certainly would not shed any tears about a ROB and/or her driver if they wound up in the hospital for 6 months while trying to steal from their victim. I have not had any provider say to me "I won't see you because you are too scary." I think that is because providers know just as we hobbyists should know that if you run around consistently doing nasty things to people evnetually one of them may kick your ass and you have gotten what you deserve.
I think that the guys that cancelled their appointments have missed a great time unless of course their intention was to physically abuse netmichelle. I certainly have not had any problems but then again there are many more fun things to do when seeing netmichelle than either physically abusing her or talking about TER hobbyists running amuck.
-- Modified on 7/28/2004 6:44:09 PM
An alternate scenario. Said Abuser, sposedly a local legend, PMs all the folks he thinks might be scheduling NM, and warns them off. Perhaps threatens (bullies are bullies) or just lies and exagerates to get them to boycott her- just to mess with her business over his "loss of face".
Were this to occur, this is a bad thing. Mainly for the poor losers who cancelled, as they would have had a great time. But also for the over all credibility and standing of the TC community.
Just a thought.
The TC area has a great rep. It would be unfortunate if it got sullied by essentially one guy's stupidity and insensitivity.
Sully
Amicus Curii (sp?)
Well Sully, I was a bit surprised by your "alternate scenario" concerns. The old issues has been delt with and a DEAD issue. I have much better things to do in addition to not stooping that low to create issues against NM. I did not like the way things were handled in prior situation and figured that she would have some issues form others upon her next return.
NONE of this is at my direction or my doing or my prompting to adversly affect her business. Do I hold a grudge against her NO. Do I like her ...not really.
Aside from that, does she provide a wild and very good service based upon reviews. From what I can tell from people that have seen her and reviews. I would say yes.
"It would be unfortunate if it got sullied by essentially one guy's stupidity and insensitivity." This type of comment is exactly what people seem to be trying to get away from. It comes down to the basic principle that if you hard hard factual evidence of an act or acts, speak away. If you are going under an "assumption" well the old saying speaks volumes for itself!
A) Did not name names- don't even know who anybody is in TC!
B) Just an alternate scenario- not a claim that this is what happened. But it could perhaps with folk not as obviously suave and debonair as you all. So THAT IT COULD HAPPEN needed to be injected in the chat.
C) Like I give a rat's (insert you favourite body part name here)in any direction.
D) How about them 'Wolves?
E) How about them Vikings?
Sully,
I think that that scenario seems to be a reach. From my experience with MDL it doesn;t seem to be his style.
However, something funny seems to have transpired considering that the booking and cancels all happened AFTER said event - and unless one were to analyze the list of scheduled/cancelled clients (which are available only to NetMichelle) - it would be difficult to determine whether there was some form of conspiracy afoot.
I will say that the rate of cancels certainly appears to be unusual - and I would not put it past some people to plan such activities. If it were important to know, only NM could share that schedule of bookings with other local people to know which e-mail addresses/names match the board personalities and their past postings. So we will never know, will we?
sl
"So we will never know, will we?"
Cranial-Rectal Inversion
Lemme see: in the beginning of all this nonsense first you guys ask for this alleged abused provder's info, then you ask for the perp/hobbiest's info, then you ask for the touring providers who refuse to post here anymore or visit your city, and now you ask for my client list? The answer has been "no" all along. I don't give out sensitive information to anyone. I don't even give out references. (shock/horror!!) So, how do you like your donuts? Sprinkled? I am not calling you a cop, just a donut luvr, Mr. sexluvr. All sorts of people all subscribers to this forum.
FOAD
The handle makes you feel comfy huh?
Okay guys, just give it up. If you want to have the last word, then just schedule a session with me already and then spit in my face. If you get a bullseye you get a free session. Enough. All the major players have withdrawn their cards from this game. If you are still growling, then maybe you are rabid. Lemme call animal control for you. I think the Twin Cities is long overdue for a feminist revolution if this is the SOP. God forbid a woman should voice her feelings and opinion.
-- Modified on 7/30/2004 1:19:51 AM
and I probably shouldn't dignify your post with a response.
So I will simply say, no one asked you to disclose your 'client' (prospect/cancel) list. My statement told Sully that - essentially it wasn't appropriate to throw incendiary devices at something that he could never substantiate. And I told him that in a respectful manner. I allowed that it was ok to state that something smelled fishy - but to point at someone without proof is just another pointless accusation. You;re the only one that would know - and if it were important, you could be analytical/intelligent about it and investigate on your own. But I guess its just easier for you to 'assume' that was the case. Its certainly much easier to flame than it is to do the work.
And - I didn't ask you for your prospect/cancel list. Personally, I don;t care.
As far as being a cop.... ok - I confess... Hope that meets your needs.
Have a nice day.....
sl
-- Modified on 7/30/2004 7:46:03 AM
The things that you gentlemen will never understand are the things that providers have to endure. I work very hard for my reputation as a provider. I work my ass off for my reviews. A few days ago that all dissolved.
When I have the privilege of posting my availability within this forum, it your respective privilege of posting what you deem is appropriate in response to my post. I in turn may post what I feel is of import to your retorts. Fair game. We both learn from each other.
What bothers me is that this forum is my means of an income. How would you feel if a person threw a mud ball at you on your way to work? Then because someone else sees what has happened and decides that he too is going to throw one as well because he saw the other fellow do it and had also heard that mud balls were thrown at you before awhile back so then what they heck. Then there is so much mud that you can't get to work that day, or the next, so you decide to go home. I suppose it could be worse. I could be a physician that gets killed by a fanatic on my way to performing an abortion. Or one of my present stalkers could eventually kill me.
If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.
I realize this board defines you. It is clear - it is obvious.
I threw no mud at you. And I follow no other posters. I'm not a shill for a poster - nor a provider. In fact, I was defending you. But when you bomb with napalm, you are indiscriminate. If you flame me as you did - I too - will defend myself. I have no gripe with you - but I now have no reason to defend or empathize.
As far as standing the heat - it would take something a lot hotter than what you have to give to scorch me. You just need to pick your enemies a bit more discreetly. To lump as all in the same group is wrong.
sl
-- Modified on 7/30/2004 8:32:58 AM
Michelle,
Did I miss somethin' here? I think you misunderstood sexluvr's original post. He wasn't suggesting that you should post your schedule, or that you were a big poopy-butt for not revealing your schedule.
He was responding to Sully's proposition that maybe there was a "conspiracy" of local hobbyists behind this, and his point was that there'd simply be no way for us to know, because it would be quite unlikely that a professional like yourself would ever reveal that info.
He wasn't saying you should, he was saying you shouldn't and wouldn't, and hence we'd never really know for sure what happened.
In this context, you can see why he may have responded quite defensively... He was posting a "neutral" position, and you responded to him quite harshly as if he was posting against you... And I'm quite certain that was not his intent at all.
-- Modified on 7/30/2004 12:17:52 PM
OK I was angry about the MDL deal and I did say more than I should have. I feel bad that your business was affected and will be more careful in the future. I'm sorry NM.
I learned a lot from all of this. Life lessons are the most important ones, and I had my ample serving this week. No harsh feelings. Take care.
It would be nice if people refrained from unwarranted comments and attacks but that has to come from within the community, not enforced by you or anyone else unless it gets, as you said, "gratuitously nasty."
-- Modified on 7/28/2004 10:11:00 PM
Turkana I think you've done an admirable job of moderating.
But the thing is, this board is dominated by a few posters - all
clients - not providers. This makes it very unfriendly for
providers as mentioned by Miss_MN. No form of moderation can
fix that.
Although I don't think any one post in the thread below was out
of line, the sum total of those posters (posting more than
once) against a single person makes for an unfriendly
environment. And this has happened in more than one thread.
Basically what you have here is a very insular community. The
board attitude will, long term, drive away travelling providers.
It already has done so. And guess whose loss that is?
fr