If a girl has a legally worded ad and website, is it legal for le to contact the escort from her legally worded ad to try to arrange something that would be illegal ?

where is the probable cause ?

i see le is all the time saying that most escorts participate in other illegal activity but isnt that like saying most hispanics are here illegally so we're going to pull over all motorists that look hispanic ?

I doubt a judge or jury would consider it entrapment if an undercover officer entered her room and asked her a question like:  "How much for sex?", which, I she was foolish enough to answer, would lead to her certain arrest.

If she were very circumspect and she had a very good lawyer, she might get to beat the rap; but just getting arrested is 90% of the damage.

As for what constitutes legal wording, I'm sure there is a lot of gray area there too, but I haven't ever heard of an arrest for what was on the website.  It's almost always for some form of agreement for sex for money.

As for your comments about hispanics getting stopped and asked for papers; it happens all too often.

> but I haven't ever heard of an arrest for what was on the website

This IS happening in Phoenix.  Words like GFE or often worse is on website.

BUSTED for solicitation.  Even GFE went to a jury trail in Scottsdale and gal was convicted since it was clear what it meant by testimony.

Never any contact with any undercover or police, no  money exchanged, many gals are being arrested lately solely for wrong words on website and getting solicitation convictions which sends them to Tent City (now in 100 degree heat) for the AZ mandatory 15 days minimum sentence for any prostitution conviction.

I'm talking about having probable cause.

It's illegal for the police to pull over a hispanic just because they are hispanic... It might happen all the time, but legally they need a reason to pull you over or it's racial profiling.

so why wouldn't the same premise apply here ?

what's their probably cause for calling us in the first place ?

do they call other occupations ?

there are alot of contractors that advertise their services on craigslist, i'm sure plenty of them are unlicensed but does le call them and try to arrange services from them that would violate the city's code ?  

why not ?

I'm guessing because contractors dont get naked.

If you get a chance to do so, you should read the arrest reports that are used to file charges in the misdemeanor arraignment courts in your area. LE has to articulate what led them to arrest the defendant. If the arrest was for driving under the influence the source of activity might be simply that the officer was driving down the street and observed the defendant's vehicle weaving.

In regards to advertisements on the Internet, the officer could state that he was perusing the Internet looking for advertisements for escorts, also known as prostitutes, when he observed the concerned website. He could ad that the Internet is widely used by prostitutes to advertise for business. That would be more than sufficient probably cause.  

There is a service in Southern California that captures the arrests reports that are used to file complaints and distributes copies of the reports to subscribers of the service.  Most of the customers are law firms.  I worked for a criminal defense law firm that used the service.  I read every report that was filed in both the felony and misdemeanor arraignment courts in Ventura County and the Western San Fernando Valley Branch of the Los Angeles Superior Court on the days I was in the office. I wouldn't even attempt to guess how many prostitution arrest reports I read. In the beginning almost every arrest was of a street walker except for the ones that were generated by complaints.  Unless someone complained, LE would only arrest street walkers and occasionally raid a massage parlor.

With the advent of the Internet and sites like Craig's List, street walkers started to disappear.  The very first stings were conducted in Hollywood wherein a female LE would loiter on the sidewalk and lure men to a motel room where he would be arrested by other LE.  Before long LE was using sites like Craig's List to lure male customers to a motel room where they would be arrested.  I noticed that LE preferred to advertise as a prostitute and arrest men than call prostitutes and invite them to a motel.  They seemed to arrest a lot more men because the men didn't screen like many providers do.

One of the attorneys who worked in the office wrote a book on the subject.  It was the most comprehensive publication I have every read on prostitution and how to operate under the radar.  He titled to book, "Defending Prostitution Arrest Cases."  He only sold the books to other attorney's because it would be a violation of the law to advise non attorneys on how to break the law. He obtained most of the information by simply reading a lot of arrest reports.

not in legal terms.

an escort is licensed and totally legal.

a prostitute is not.

so if the ad is worded legally, le has no probable cause to call her and try to arrange something illegal.

like I said, they dont call the services offered in other sections of craigslist to arrange illegal activities.

That's occupational profiling.

You can say all you want that most escorts engage in prostitution but since escorting is a legal profession, that alone is not probable cause.

Too bad its not available to the public. It would be a best seller on Amazon!

Do you know if it is still available for lawyers and how to get it? I may know some lawyers that might be interest in it.

It was available at the Legal Book Store in LA but that was a few years ago.  I have a copy somewhere in my office and I had planned to scan it onto my hard drive someday.  I have an in my home in Cabo San Lucas and it might be there. If so, I usually have ample free time during the winter when I am there to scan it.  I will have to check to see if I am violating any laws before I do it.  I might be ok since I will be doing the scanning in Mexico.

for prostitution doesnt give them probable cause to call a legal ad that is posted on a legal website (craigslist).

They do it all the time.

You can believe what you wish to believe but you are dead wrong on the probable cause issue. Coca Cola is a beverage, and it is also known as Coke.  Cocaine is the "legal" name of a drug but it is also known as coke.  According to your reasoning if a drug dealer told an undercover narc that he had some coke for sale the narc could not arrest the drug dealer because coke is a beverage and it is not against the law to sell Coca Cola. You were correct when you said a licensed escort is a legal enterprise.  However the word escort is also used to refer to a prostitute: Escort is a colloquialism for prostitute.

I have never heard of the term occupational profiling in regards to probable cause.  It sounds like a term an employment agency would use.  At any rate I wish you all the best in your future endeavors. Remember never take anything for granted.

Police need probable cause to make an arrest or to conduct certain types of searches or seizures.  They don't need it in order to conduct an investigation.  Investigations are the means by which they obtain probable cause.  It would make no sense to say they must already have it before they begin.

They cant just pull over certain "types" of people because those people are more prone to illegal activity.

There has to be a reason to investigate.

If escorting is legal, there is no reason to investigate a legal escort ad placed on a legal advertising site.

Assuming you are "enrolled before the bar".. forget if that is the correct term, would think you can just give a copy to someone who is NOT a client but just someone doing research....ah..like me..with a legal problem.  Of course copyright issue but your not selling it or making money off it.

If your not a lawyer doubt if have any legal issues.

I would obviously be interested in it, but could agree not to name it etc if I make any suggestions etc....

If your not a lawyer you would also probably not have any issue sharing any good tidbits....Not "how to break the law" but things to avoid when your legally just selling time not sex to avoid getting into trouble for an arrest that wouldn't stick if fight it.

But they can watch a car for some minor violation and than stop.

So if they think a website/review/ad implies something illegal - no they can not arrest on that but may be probable cause to set up a sting?

The new gal that just posted in Phoenix board for example. Her website is like many I have seen. Huge list of illegal services she offers - terms with their sexual definitions- perfect arrest bait for solicitation don't even have to set up a sting.

But if website/ad implies money for sex as most do.. that is all they need for a solicitation arrest at least for ad/website if can prove she did the ad/site.

The first person to propose something illegal is soliciting.

If you go to the dry cleaners, after seeing a "legally worded" add for getting a suit pressed, and solicit the cashier for sex, you have solicited.

ads randomly from craigslist and backpage that do NOT AT ALL violate the law.

What justification do they have to call legal business people who are advertising on a legal website to try to arrange something illegal.

Do they sit down with the yellow pages and call doctors and try to arrange an illegal service ?
Check to make sure they're licensed ?

Probable cause is required for arrests and  searches (although there is a lower standard for certain investigatory stops)but is never required to set up a sting.


Therefore "If a girl has a legally worded ad and website," it is legal for le to contact the escort from her legally worded ad to try to arrange something that would be illegal," so long as that "something" is designed to catch lawbreakers.

until someone challenged the law as being unconstitutional.

if you're going to call up escorts and try to arrange something illegal, you better be calling people in other professions as well because the law is supposed to be applied equally.

I have to say, I wish you the best and hope you can make a case out of this.

But, I think they can easily make a case as to why they called an ad off of backpage or craigslists adult services section with the assumption someone wasn't actually offering just a hand holding at dinner.

I think if you had a web site with no reviews anywhere and no ad's anywhere, you could fight a case.  Don't know if you'd win, but you could...

         LE cannot  lawfully detain, search, or arrest someone solely  bc they are black. Nor could LE lawfully detain, search, or arrest someone solely  bc they identified themselves as an escort on an internet ad that did not violate state solicitation laws.

         But you asked whether “ it is legal for le to CONTACT the escort from her legally worded ad to try to arrange something that would be illegal?” It would be equally legal for LE to contact a black man who lived in a drug infested community just to see if he would agree to participate in a drug sting.

           Now if we took the facts a little further and changed the question to “ it is legal for le to detain, search or arrest the escort from her legally worded ad to try to arrange something that would be illegal, the answer would be it is illegal  bc they would need probable cause to do so (let’s leave aside the scary question of whether the ad plus reviews and TER profile would meet the probable cause standard).

        So the profiling analogy you are thinking about goes to situations where LE interferes with the freedom of the person. Mere contacting on the basis of race or gender would not violate any constitutional provision that I can see.

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The new gal that just posted in Phoenix board for example. Her website is like many I have seen. Huge list of illegal services she offers - terms with their sexual definitions- perfect arrest bait for solicitation don't even have to set up a sting.
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How does one know for sure that "the new gal" is really a "gal" and not LE ?  Putting these many offers for illegal services, could be the dangling of low-hanging bait to catch hobbyists, for all you know.

Only to detain or arrest.

So the police can at any time, for any reason or for no reason at all, investigate anybody they choose.

yes.

but in this case, they are singling out a certain demographic... forget the reviews, forget the website.... most frequently targeted are ads on craigslist where the girl has no reviews or website...

just an ad for a legal erotic service

there's something wrong with this picture, so tell me what it is.

with the conduct of LE,I agree,

It is like saying "that poor skinny person must go the the grocery to steal food"
or "I am late for work so just give me a speeding ticket now & save 20 minutes"

or that "rich guy must cheat on his taxes".

it is just another sleazy excuse for LE to break the law under the guise of police work.
also what about LE using alcohol or drugs in prostitution stings? there is something wrong with that too  & using mere possesion of a condom as evidence.. those wrongheads!!!!

Balboa you might know the answer to this:

If LE is surfing the NET why would He "select" the  demure AD amongst provacative ADs to set up for a sting?

It seems to just say 1 person's demure personal AD amongst provacative ADs,
How would that 1 person be responsible for the others behavior.

For example: we all hear about the rear end collision insurance scams  & you have a legit  rear end collision but get arrested/accussed of insurance fraud.. only b"cuz you were in a type of accident that was  commonly used in scams

escorts, strippers, go go dancers, massage therapists, nudists, sex therapists, porn stars, models, centerfolds ,mistresses, horny women,lonely women, women with revealing clothing, private nurses, French maids  are NOT prostitutes.

To say this AD is legal , Yet, If convienent for LE to use it against you as evidence although technically there is nothing illegal about it.

Why don't they just look in the phonebook & follow someone to  the store arrest them for shoplifting

As I said in my prior response, police need probable cause in order "to conduct certain types of searches or seizures".  Pulling over a car is a seizure.  Merely starting an investigation is not.  That is where your analogy fails.

That's why my website has nothing and I mean nothing on it that can be related to anything in this industry....no acronyms, no reviews, no trail to online boards...I use a completely different online identity.

Any email from anyone that mentions anything remotely related to anything that could be used is deleted.

While nothing on a website or on a review board may be a slam dunk for the prosecution, it certainly helps with probable cause (or so I have been told).