Fairly new to TER but long experience with hobby in legal venues - vegas, europe, UK, asia. Scheduled appointment with well reviewed agency/well reviewed provider in Maryland, and DAMN wouldn't you know it as I'm driving away I get pulled over by the cops who have staked out the hotel building a case against SI and the girl in question. I was not arrested and was asked for my cooperation as they claimed that they were more interested in the agency than me. He asked me some questions, which I answeared nearly admitting to massage and CBJ but not penetration and the fee paid. He then had me wait around and they moved in on the provider and her next appointment literally catching the poor bastard with his pants down. He had me park down from the room and then bought her out of the room and turned her around took her back in and then came back to me to ask for positive ID.
The detective was overall a decent sort who told me that since I had cooperated with him that he would try to keep things low profile and would not contact me at work or home and that he would be ultimately getting a supeona to have me come testify and he would notify me discreetly by cell phone. He also told me that he could not make me any promises but he has never known the DA to prosecute someone in my shoes. I'm not sure if I did the right thing or not but I got the impression that had I not been as cooperative he may very well have arrested me then and there which would have had very untoward effects on my professional career.
Any expereince with LE such as this?. Just my luck first time out of the box I get busted! Does the Detective's story ring true to you or do you think he might have been feeding me a line. As I was never arrested, I did not receive any Miranda rights so I'm sure anything I may have said to him could not be used against me. Likewise I don't know if they got pictures of me going in or out but would not be suprised.
Should I consult a Lawyer?
Any other thoughts or advice?
I cannot understand how a person that writes as intelligently as you could be so stupid in the situation that you were in. Stop talking to the cop and hire yourself a lawyer NOW. Allow that person to deal with the cops. Make sure that you recount everything and every situation to the lawyer.
You need to realize that unless cops bust you IN the room, you should refuse to talk to them. If they offer to show you "evidence" against you, insist that they either leave you alone or arrest you. If they arrest you, say nothing until you have talked to and have a lawyer present.
Hire the biggest and meanest lawyer you can afford. Sorry this happened. Get ready for the war.
Do me a favor and PM me with the girl's info since I can no longer get a valid reference from her.
Get a lawyer - I don't think LE making promises as you mentioned means anything, except getting you to cooperate more. I could be wrong and hope they are honorable, but I doubt it. I also hope they made enough mistakes gathering information that those involved get off with this being no more then a lesson in the life as a hobbyist and provider.
Call any law firm and ask them for advice - the first answer is usually free. This advice should be your telling them everything you experienced, said, seen and done to the greatest level of detail as possible. It might not only help you, but might help others.
Good Luck
Everyone is always right when they advise to engage counsel. The detective;s comments are not unusual though. Frquently they seek only the pimps or the gang, not the john. Your lawyer will obtain the police report and that will show you much of what you need to know. Do not plead or further speak with the police until yiu have counsel. Then the lawyer is your "mouthpiece".
Note too how everyone advises you to hire a lawyer. Frequently (not speaking of these posters) these are the same people who crack crass jokes or state their distaste for lawyers. Interesting, no?
Ph#: 917-how-is-my-driving?
My grandfather is an appellate court judge.
Another member of my family is a high ranking police officer.
My worst stalker from TER was a federal prosecuting attorney.
Some of my best clients are high powered attorneys.
I myself have paid 10K in legal fees in my lifetime.
Some of the best jokes are about lawyers. Get over it.
-- Modified on 5/7/2005 12:48:50 PM
Lawyers are like oncologists. You never want to have a need for one, but when you do need one, you want the best one you can find.
if that was not the case. I hope that you did not include me in the list of those that make fun of lawyers. I don't. I think that good, effective lawyering is valuable to society. If we did not have good honest lawyers, our society would not work.
I'm not a lawyer, but I think it is obvious on what you wrote that you gave LE probable cause to raid that SI location and burn the next guy. I don't think they would have gone in if you didn't admit what you did. They probably would have tried the same thing that happened to you on the next guy if you didn't admit it.
I know hindsight is 20/20, but like others have said you should have just kept quiet. You were leaving and they no evidence against you; now they might since they raided and that you admitted it. You kind of made thing worse for yourself now that you have to go to court. Again, like everyone has said get a lawyer and say nothing more.
"The detective was overall a decent sort" that is a contradiction.
police are given permission to lie to people to make that person feel like the officer is on their side
ever heard of bad cop, good cop
I am not giving any advice. I am not getting my head bit off as usual
More than likely you will never see the inside of a courtroom. They usually plea cases like this out.
FYI...I heard it was a noise/foot traffic complaint and they had to invesitgate.
I do have a question. Are you a complete IDIOT?? Until you opened your mouth they had absolutely nothing on you or her. What charge would they possibly have arrested you on?
I hope you are proud of yourself. By flapping your your yap, you gave the cops enough PC to bust down her door, arrest her and the poor SOB with her. Because of your big mouth she went to jail, instead of sitting at home writing a review about the wonderful time he had,he is probably trying to figure how to stay out of jail himself, and you are wondering if you are in hot water yourself.
All you had to do was keep your mouth SHUT. There were a thousand legitimate reasons you could have been there, none of them are any of the cops business.
On behalf of the entire hobbying community, Thank you very much for helping the police get this very dangerous young lady off the street. Again, I hope you are proud of yourself,Expletive deleted.
Give everyone here a break. Obviously the cops knew exactly what was going on there or else they wouldn't have been there in the first place. An earlier post said it was because of a noise/foot traffic complaint, probably by a neighbor or competition. The cops staked out the place and it doesn't take a rocket scientists to figure out what's going on. Lying to the cops would have put him in a much worse situation legally. Since he told them the truth they didn't arrest him and most likely will only want him as a witness if it ever comes to that.
Everyone in this knows the risks and everyone knows that they need to protect themselves first.
Note Gambler did not sugest he lie. He said you should of said nothing. It is clear LE new what was happening but had no proof. That is why they stoped you. They wanted to scare you and give them a confirmation of what they already new. That gave them PC to go into the room that will stand up in court. You had every right to say nothing not lie but say nothing. you gave them a case against yourself the girl and the other guy. Guys you need to think this type of senario through in advance if you are going to play this game. Bottom line is if they can't prove you have agreed to pay money for a service then the only thing you have done was with another consenting adult. That is not against the law! Bottom line if you said I was there to visit with a friend and nothing else you were a free man. They were not in the room and can not prove otherwise Pattaya
"Note Gambler did not sugest he lie. He said you should of said nothing."
Think about what you are writing. The cops is asking him what he just did and you want him to be silent? Not say a word? Just stand there like a deaf mute? You are hilarious. Now lets get back to the real world where trying a stunt like that WILL get you cuffed and booked for obstruction.
"The cops is asking him what he just did and you want him to be silent? Not say a word?"
If that's what he wants to do, he's quite welcome to stand there mute. No one is required to answer when LE asks a question.
A better way to handle it would have been to ask the Cop, "Am I under arrest?" If the cop says no, then say you're leaving (and do so). If the cop says yes, then say, "I want a lawyer".
You are living in the "Law and Order" world where people walk away from cops when they are asking questions. In the real world that doesn't happen - especially if you are suspected of just having committed a crime. You try that and you will be cuffed and booked faster than you can say "I want to see a lawyer".
I want some of what you are smoking! Wake up and join us in the real world!!
So you pull your little rant with the cops, and they detain you on suspicion of solicitation (yes, they can legally detain you on suspicion of a crime). They bust through the door and catch the next gent going at it - now they know you came OUT of that room, and they know what was going on IN that room. See where we are heading here?
We're headed nowhere. They did not bust down the door until he gave them PC by admitting a crime had been committed. Even in your uphappy little scenario they still have nothing. It amazes me that so many of you are suggesting that admitting to a crime, when the police do not have the slighest bit of evidence is proper and prudent behavior.
I have never suggested acting beligerant or disrespectful to the police. What I am saying is that admitting to police that you have committed a crime is pure idiocy. Why is that concept so difficult to grasp?
I never suggested lying to the police. Knowing what is going on, and having probable cause, are two completely different things. The police have no right to arrest you on mere suspicion of a crime. The only evidence they have are his own self-incrimating statements, which they would not have if he had the common sense to keep his mouth shut.
Its always better to say nothing (your constitutional right) or tell the truth
and I have found myself in the same position oper888 found himself in. Let me start by saying that for those of you who chose to call him "idiot, stupid, jerk "etc, you need not read further. There is nothing that I can say that will enlighten you. Folks of your ilk are not easily enlightened. If you do choose to read on, take another look at your posting in response to oper888's question and see what if anything it added to this important discussion. I got the impression that the man was troubled and seeking advice. I suspect that your vitriolic rantings were something less than what he had hoped for, indeed than what the majority of the board members had hoped for or should have to read. Get thee a grip.
Finding oneself in the position oper888 was in does not necessarily lead to rational thinking, calm reflection or an in depth analysis of the Bill of Rights. None of you should be fooled into thinking that oper888 could not have been arrested outside of the hotel room. [all arrests are because of suspicion of a crime] Although any proffered charges would be nebulous at best and hard to make stick, he would still have to endure the indignity of an arrest, detention and maybe more. I get the impression that this gentlemen is in a position where this type of arrest could be professionally devastating. At the time he was initially detained, he did not have a right to counsel nor was it necessary to have his Miranda rights read since he was not under arrest. His statements therefore are not constitutionally protected. His cooperation probably did buy him a "get away from the scene" card, but his very next step should be to contact an attorney he trusts. There is no telling where the police are going to go with this but the prospect of his being called as a witness is ominous. If he didn't want to be identified as being a hobbyist, that hope is deflated when he is called to testify. Now for the advice part...your legal funds would be best spent by asking your trusted attorney to provide a defense for the young lady. It is probable that a deal will be brokered and oper888's name will be kept out of the light. This may not be the case if the young lady goes in pro se. If he can adequately represent her, you won't need his services. This may even provide some salve for the fact that you probably were the one who gave the cops probable cause to make the arrest.
P.S. I think some lawyer jokes are hilarious
What exactly would they charge him with? Did they repeal the fifth ammendment when I wasn't looking? They had nothing until he opened his mouth. I wish I could get arrested with absolutely no evidence against me, I could use the money.
-- Modified on 5/9/2005 8:50:17 PM
all of what you said makes sense. Since you are a lawyer, and said you have been in his same situation before, can you tell us what you did and also more importantly, what are the best things to do if a cop puts us in a situation like that? Is it best to keep our mouths completely shut and say either arrest me or let me go? what do us hobbyists do if a detective stops us and has us in the same situation?
because of the position I was caught in, I had no grey area. Like our friend who started this thread I was extremely concerned about the effect an arrest would have on my career. I tried initially to say that the young lady and I were friends and not doing anything wrong. It became quickly apparent however that she was known to them and that she was their primary interest. I made a quick assessment that if I just kept my mouth shut and did nothing to antagonize them, they would lose interest in me, which they did. I am not some shining white knight but I would not have said anything that could have gotten the woman in trouble, has nothing to do with legality, its just the way I was raised.
My point as to oper888 was, in that situation there is little time for reasoned reflection and despite what some have posted on this board he certainly could have been arrested. Police arrest, prosecutors decide whether to take it further. It was the arrest that the gentleman was trying to avoid. I cannot condemn him and I hope that he will consider my advice regarding the local attorney he trusts.
"The police have no right to arrest you on mere suspicion of a crime."
Are you serious? What do you think the police do all day long? Until you are proven guilty you are a suspect: suspected of committing a crime.
This is comong from someone who thinks there are eleven people on a jury. They had absofuckinglutely nothing on him till he opened his mouth. Arrest him for obstruction? Obstruction of what? You have got to be out of your ever lovin mind. Have you ever heard of the fifth ammendment?
I started not to reply to this for reasons stated earlier. The truth is that the 5th would apply after the gent is taken into custody, what he wants to aovoid is being taken into custody, and he can certainly be arrested for obstruction. Please take a break from your shouting and nasty replies to understand that there is a big difference between arrest and conviction.
Bye the way you can have 11 person juries, if the parties consent.
Thank you. People like GG never seem to be able to read AND comprehend the question that has been asked. Instead they focus on a narrow area and attack it.
The point that both of you are missing, is that the police cannot force you to admit to the commision of a crime. Refusing to incriminate yourself is not obstruction, it is a constitutionaly guaranteed right.
And this I agree with, but if the police were conducting a sting and had what in their minds (even though it may not stand up later on) probable cause to believe that our friend was involved in criminal activity, they can arrest him. Merely saying "I did nothing wrong" or standing mute has rarely if ever dissuaded the police from taking someone into custody.
I guess this long discussion completely chased away the original poster who was just looking for a little advise. Though if he is still reading, I can completely empathize with him. While there are some people who only care if they ultimately get convicted of a crime, for some of us, just getting taken into custody is more than enough to cause our lives to be ruined. As cowardly as it may seem, if I had to make that choice, I would save my own hyde.
If the police had probable cause they would not have stopped him outside of the incall location. He would have been the poor schmuck caught with his pants down. The police did not have probable cause until he it to them. He was not required to confess to illegal activities, but that is what he did. By cooperating with the police he may very well avoid prosecution, which never would have happened to begin with. He now has a new set of problems. If the lady in question does not plead out, and it goes to trial he may very well be dragged into to court as a witness, which will be just as damging to his reputation as an arrest.
I repeat my original point. The police cannot compell you to admit to the commission of a crime. By admitting to a crime, he has brought much of this down upon hmself.
As indicated, my post was wasted on some who seem more intent on placing blame than understanding oper8888's dilemna. Rickyray is right, the devil here is getting arrested, not convicted. And is anyone here so naive hat they don't think that the police would not at least detain this man, cuff him and fingerprint him despite not having the kind of probable cause that would hold up on "Law & Order"... They were doing a sting, he came out of an apartment/hotel room that was the subject of the sting...textbook probably cause? No, enough to get him taken in? yes.
So, your advice is to confess to a crime that no one witnessed. Great advice. BTW Since when is failure to confess equated with obstruction?
-- Modified on 5/13/2005 8:34:07 AM
Clearly you have all the answers and either choose not to listen or have an inability to understand the real issue raised in this thread. I feared I would not reach those who have never been in oper888's shoes but who have the infinite capacity to judge. Small minded and myopic is a difficult way to travel through life, but I bet you've even mastered that
I've never been caught in your situation so can't really tell you what to do. Just remember, most of the people that tell you what you should have done when approached probably have never been approached themselves by law enforcement. Keep your head up and don't be ashamed of the fact that you tried to protect yourself and your life, despite the fact that you may have made a mistake in talking. A lot of people may act like big shots when writing on a discussion board, but when put in the same situation, they may have reacted the same way.
When they stopped Oper888 to ask him questions, they got the answers they needed and were looking for. That is why they went in "after" he confirmed what they had suspected was going on in the room. Until Oper888 told them what was going on in the room, they were not 100% sure and could not proceed into the room until they had reliable concrete probable cause. (Yep, what Oper888 told them was the key) They were watching the room, that's a normal procedure, but they did not know proof positive what was going on in the hotel room. Oper888 should have said nothing to them. There was nothing the LE could do but ask him to go with them to the substation for some round about questioning and after all of the questions were over the LE then would have let him go as long as he said nothing and asked for a lawyer to be present. They had no concrete proof or evidence on him, if they had some kind of evidence on him, he would have been in handcuffs and headed down to the station like the girl and the other gentleman who was in the room at the time the LE busted in.
That man should personally thank Oper888 for sending him to jail. If Oper888 had said nothing, the guy in the room would not have been busted in upon, instead the LE would have waited for him to come out of the room and would have asked him the same questions they asked Oper888 previously. They would have waited for another client to show and would have busted in upon that person.
If anything comes about with Oper888, it would be the LE needing him to tell the court what he had told the detective, that is what gave the LE right to raid the room. They suspected a crime was taking place in the room now and were able to raid the room without the need for a warrant, because the crime was taking place at that current moment.
Finally, someone who gets it. Thank you.
I'm sure that both of you have independent knowledge concerning the scope of the LE investigation, what evidence they had and what evidence they needed before raiding the room. My only question then is, "Why didn't you offer this advice to oper888 before he talked to the cops?" Or is it more fun for you to wait and denigrate instead of offering anything constructive
Nothing that I commented on is anything more than common knowledge. There are certain procedures that must be followed by LE personal for a criminal charge to stand in a court of law. This is common knowledge. If you have any knowledge of the judicial system then you would see that this was all common information that anyone can obtain just by sitting in a court room and not some kind of inside information that was being withheld for the sake of watching someone go down. I've Been there Done that in a very different situation but related in another way. My personal experience is included with my common knowledge comments. So the two together is how I came up with the information. It's no big secret.
First of all your an idiot, what's wrong with everybody? Thats all you have to do is stick to your own story, that you have no idea what he is talking about, make something up quickly and briefly. He still has to prove you were a part of that situation which he only had assumption to, but you were kind enough to buy his BS and given in. The only one who will sufer is that provider, because when it comes down to it. You men will sell out to anyone to save your own ass!
The only one who will sufer is that gentleman, not the provider, when it comes down to it. She'll move on and go another direction, the man on the other hand will face much dire straits from the incident. Women will sell out to anyone to save their own ass just as much as a man would! Don't believe me, I've got the documents to back it up.
This kind of reminds me of when I was I was 15 years old and I was making prank phone calls to a kid who I hated at School.
It was very immature, but I will say one thing. At the time I was smart enough not to call his house from my home phone, I would actually use a Pay Phone, in addition I saw no point in paying to make a prank phone call on a pay phone, so I would call collect!
The thing about the whole thing is that the kids father was so pist off that I would call his house collect, he would actually accecpt the charges for the call so he could cuss me out for calling his house.
So anyways this went on for a few months, and the kid actually made a few prank calls to my house and left a really nasty message on my ansewering machine.
So one day, im in school and get pulled out of class by the principal and they take me down to the office where we had this kid, this kids parents, the Principal, a police officer, along with a phone bill for $300 in charges from AT&T for collect calls.
So I knew this day was coming, so in my back pack I had the tape from my ansewering machine and my caller ID unit showing where the kid had called my house. So when the police started questioning me about the prank phone calls my responce was "Gee officer, I don't know who is making these calls but I have been getting the same type of calls at my house too. Heres my caller ID the tape from my ansewering machine"
So needless to say they couldn't do nouthing about it, and by having the tape I made this kid look worse than me 
So anyways, my only mistake was that I would use the same pay phone everytime I would make a collect call to this kids house. So this time they out smarted me and kept me on the phone long enough till they could drive up to the phone and catch me in the act.
Needless to say they caught me, the guy made such a big scene outside the store where the phone was located, the store owner called the police which was kind of good since this guy was ready the beat the crap out of me with a baseball bat.
But anyways, the Police showed up, spoke with the father first, then questioned me. I denied everything, and actually blamed it on a group of high school kids who had used the phone a few minutes earlier who where nowhere to be seen.
So the police officer had no choice but to let me go
But the point is this, I start walking home and as im crossing the street a few blocks away the officer pulls up to me and tries to act like he is my friend and says "I know you where probably scared back there, and I understand that. Are you sure you didn't make any phone calls to that guys house back there? Not even 1 telephone call? Its no big deal if you did, but part of growing up and being a man is telling the truth"
Now luckily I kept my mouth shut and kept on walking home, but the point her is to never admit anything that you did wrong to the police. Im sure if I would have given in and told the truth, he would have taken me down to the station!
My responce in this paticular situation would have been that I was just visiting a friend from out of town!
Bless your heart friend! I am a lawyer and the similar thing happened to me in 2001. LE put guns to my head and I sang like a blue bird. Now I feel a great deal of compassion for clients who confess to the cops. I just hope the people who have responded to your posting have not caused you more anxiety than what you are going through already. In my case I kept getting subpoenas for a year and lectures from ADA's on how I should tell my wife and my reprehensible lifestyle. It was truly awful. Everyone plead and the whole thing eventually went away and my family never knew. I hope that will happen with you. Good luck.