on a side note i watched a buddy blow this lesson out his backside last night when he got a DUI and wouldn't stfu. me and his brother (who just got out of a 3 year stretch for B&E) were both watching him just going omg he needs to stfu (shut the f up).
Was with a provider tonight and LE knocked at door. I stayed in room while prov dealt with LE who were inguiring about drug issue. I was not aware that the prov used drugs nor do I know how they got to her. There was another woman involved whom I had not seen before and LE were questioning her also. I did not know who this other woman was and had never seen her before. I over heard something about drugs in a car but that was it.
Eventually, LE came in, separated us and began interogating both of us separately. I said I was there to take her out for dinner and said no more. They continued to question but I declined to answer. They were getting mad that I would not cooperate. They asked for ID which I provided and detained me about 2 hrs against my will. I was not cuffed but they indicated that they would not let me go.
The prov answered questions but I could not directly hear what she said. They apparently confiscated her computer and a log - I do not know if I was an entry in the log. They evenually let me go but said that since I did not cooperate they would file solicitation charges. They took my phone number after I resisted giving it to them but said it was required and they would embarass me by showing up at my house.
Can't think of anything I left out but what are my options here and was I wise to stay quiet?
First off, you have few options and you acquitted yourself well. Nicely done!
I understand you were not involved with the drug aspect of this story, but for you and everyone else who reads this, just let just say that I have never heard a story about a provider who did drugs that ended nicely. I would advise you and everyone to stay a long way away from any provider who does drugs. If you use drugs yourself, that is your business, but do not use them in the company of providers, this always ends up very badly.
That is certainly a good story that you will be telling around the fireplace to the kiddies, I mean to all your strong male friends. I wish more hobbyists would fill these screens with such adventures so others could benefit.
What can I say other than I think you handled yourself beautifully? There is always a fine line between giving in and saying no, my high school steady was an expert at that. Of course she said yes to the next guy who dated her, but what is a good girl for, if not to disappoint. Anyway, I digest, I mean I digress, you did fine.
You did well to resist but you never want to be so bold as to insult and have the wrath of the nasty cop beat the shit out of you and then arrest you for resisting arrest. Gee, it is a real world our there and there are some bad guys among the good guys, but you seemed too done magnificently.
As for a two hour detention, that seems a little long but probably since all ended pretty well, I would not get involved with complaining unless you get called to court and then your attorney can see if is worth discussing.
Fortunately you were not charged with the drug aspect, and we do not know if the provider was found with a drug user or seller, but since providers who use often have a guy just around the corner to run up and take your money as soon as you leave so she can get high, it is good that you were not accused of being that guy. It could be you were just caught up in a drug bust follow up, whether they do tag you for solicitation is questionable as they do not have any evidence from you and testimony from the provider might well be thrown out. Of course the computer may implicate you but you would have opportunity to find that out through discovery, but likely this will not go that far.
As I have not polished up my crystal balls, as those are not the ones my girlfriend plays with, I cannot be sure if you will actually get a citation and if you do it might just be a fine you will have to pay without having to go to court. Well, let’s hope so. But when you are caught with your pants down if is hard to tell, if you remember high school dating, it is hard to tell the girlfriend’s father that you were just adjusting your waist band, especially if you are wearing Judy’s bikini underwear as a hat.
Please let us hear how this whole thing went down and if possible what part of the world you are being arrested in. Nice job Pistonhead!
Legal B - Thank you for your sage advice and I would have never jeopardized myself by wittingly seeing someone who used drugs. I don't and this revelation was a complete surprise to me. Thank you again for your wise comments.
I spoke with an atty today who advised a "wait and see" approach. This cuts across my grain a bit as I feel that the only way to win a battle is to keep the enemy off guard and guessing. But wait is what I will do and I will re-post when I have something to report.
I also have had some time to reflect on this thng. All this was a bit scary for me. The closest I have ever gotten to these assholes previously in my life was my long history of speeding tickets. These proceedings were on a quite different level.
There were 3 cops in total, but I dealt directly with only two and these were your typical "linebackers with attitudes". They both badgered me without end to engage in a discussion on this. They threatened me with arrest and to "throw the book" at me, but I wouldn't budge. Now, through all this, I tried to be cool, calm and collected. I was respectful to these guys and addressed them as "sir". All I repeatedly said is that I respectfully decline to answer any questions - not why, or whatever. Nothing more. I did not give them a thing to open up or grind on.
Admittedly, at a few points along the way it was tempting to talk since they intimated that they would be easier on me. But then I reasoned, bullshit, I am not going to help myself by admitting anything and it was just probably a form of coercion to get me to spill my guts and to fill their memo pads. So I stood my ground and continued to decline their questions - politely. In retrospect, I truly believe that this was the right course of action, which was confirmed by Mr. LB.
I also must say that in my surfing of TER, I did in fact watch the entire 30-40 min video posted here somewhere about never speaking to cops. This was on my mind constantly and was my strength in dealing with these jerks. Find it and watch it - perhaps someone smarter than me can ref the post for me.
I would have answered every one of their questions beyond providing my ID with 'Am I under arrest? If so I want an attorney, if not I want to leave. What time is it now?' Then looked at my watch and noted the time 'Oh.. its 7:26PM.' Last I heard LE could hold you for investigation for one hour, that may well depend on the locality and (thank God) I'm not a lawyer so take that with a wheelbarrow full of salt.
Actually, it depends on where you're arrested. In NJ, you can be held up to 72 hours, I think. After that, they MUST bring you before a judge and either arraign you (charge you with a crime), release you, or claim you're a material witness.
Unfortunately, if they claim you're a material witness, and the judge believes that you won't return to court to testify, it's possible you can be held a very, very, long time. "Indefinitely" is the word typically used...
You see, in the United States, if you're charged with a crime and the judge thinks you won't return to court, you usually can get bail and get out of jail. But, if they claim you're a material witness and the judge believes you won't return to court, you can't get bail and you can stay in jail until you're no longer needed for testimony. So it's better to be charged with a crime because as a defendant you have rights. :As a witness you don't.
there is a difference between being arrested and being detained, seems like a bit long for a detention but probably fits guide lines and at least the guy was not cuffed, that sucks!(being cuffed)
By refusing to talk, continually demanding to either be released or be provided an attorney makes LE commit AND lets them know you are not going to roll over and that you are keeping track of the time for possible use later.
If they decide to take you in, the game changes but your right to a lawyer etc come to the forefront.
Regarding the 'material witness' thing, well... all states are different, but that doesn't fly here that I KNOW OF.
...between being 'demanding' and 'assertive.' Once the cops know you are cowering they will work you like a rented mule. Being as composed as possible and making the points that 1. You are not talking to them. 2. You want to leave. and 3. If you can't leave you want an attorney actually does put them on the spot and forces their hand. If they have probable cause to arrest you, they will. Guess what? They were going to do that anyway. If they do NOT have probable cause to arrest you then they have to sh*t or get off the pot. You are simply making them aware that you have SOME idea of your rights and that you have no intention of playing their game and talking yourself into jail.
Being assertive (while diplomatic) that you're not going to provide information is in your best interest.
I just figure time is on your side. I'd rather they get bored and move on to the next shiny object than for me to do something to trigger a testosterone response and dare them into arresting me.
I'd rather spend a few hours cooling my heels than spend some time in jail before they realize they don't have much of a case.
And I think "I would like to leave or call my attorney," if I am not actually arrested, makes sense as well. I have his home/office numbers in my speed dial. Wouldn't recommend getting cute by noting the time. I might ask if I can take out my phone to make a call. Might get a "no," but I wouldn't try it without asking.
its not as easy as people think.. they got tricks.
you didnt talk, you got no worries, imo.
they lied about your phone# being required so i doubt they were telling the truth about charging you. . .they got nothing .
regarding: "I was not cuffed but they indicated that they would not let me go."
sure they did, but had you asked them pointblank if you could go, they would have to let you go or arrest you. they might dance around and indicate this or that but don't let them distract you from the fact that they're not answering your question.
they like to "indicate" alot of things, most of the time they cant back up that indication cuz if they could, they would already be doing it.
they dont come out and say you cant leave cuz it's bullshit, so they just "indicate" it and hope you dont push it.
example: census bureau dudes at my door. i know i have to tell them how many people live in my house so i tell them... .he goes to the questionairre and i ask him if i'm required to answer anything else and he says, "you can clearly see we have badges to identify we're with the...."
that "indicates" he's official and i'm supposed to answer his questions but i interrupt him and said, "i didn't ask you if you had badges, i asked you if i am required to answer any more questions"
my mama is standing next to me, they followed her to my door or else i wouldnt have even answered it. so instead of answering my question, he asks me my name and both me and my mother are like, "oh thats it, we're outtie"
if they dont answer your question, its cuz they dont want you to know the answer. ..
anyway, i had a census dude as a client a few weeks prior and he prepped me so i already knew.
also, watching cops actually helps to identify right where people get tricked into giving up their rights... when cops ask your permission to do something, like a search, they often do it in an authoritive tone so it sounds like an order and people just agree cuz they think they have to...
then they go to jail. they couldve just said no.
there's no law against "refusing to cooperate with law enforcement"
JPL - you are correct in that I did not ask them point blank "can I go". But when I first asked if I am under arrest ("no") and then said that I wanted to leave, they threatened to cuff me "to keep me there until they were done". It seemed that these two were just waiting for a spark so that they could vent their anger over me not answering or responding - so I backed down and waited. More questions were fired after this but I still declined to answer.
I think you are correct - they got nothing because I said nothing. And you are also correct in that they are very good at asserting an air of authority to get you to do things that you should not. JUST DON'T FRIGGIN TALK. PERIOD. YOU DON'T HAVE TO, SO DON'T.
on a side note i watched a buddy blow this lesson out his backside last night when he got a DUI and wouldn't stfu. me and his brother (who just got out of a 3 year stretch for B&E) were both watching him just going omg he needs to stfu (shut the f up).
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