All I want for Christmas is the decriminalization of sex work
By "Bella" founder of Coyote RI
All I want is to start a program to increase the population ration of females to males by a factor of 5 to 1. There would be a worldwide scouting of attractive women or with superior genetics to then clone them in massive government funded clone process. We can use all the single mothers on welfare to be surrogates. Or perhaps outsource. Then there would be such a high extra portion of females that they couldn't even charge for sex with men they would end up begging men to have sex with them.
Poon would be so plentiful and bountiful. We would have women forming lines just to date us. They would take us out, buy us dinner, and be our sugar mommas instead, even though they are much younger than us hobbyists.
Well that is my plan.
Plus the government in the exercise of its GM stock rights, would order the re-making the Astro cargo van and issue one to all hobbyists free of charge with a mattress in the back of it.
In my lifetime I've seen political change that has led to civil, rights, abortion rights, partial decriminalization of marijuana, and gay marriage - all of which would have been unthinkable in the year I was born.
So let's keep the faith and hope that this fundamental right, which by the way more or less exists in many western societies already, and which even existed in the US up to about a hundred years ago, returns in the near future.
Thanks Dave.
Gays, stoners and women seeking the right to choose all had people willing to step up and be counted, something that hookers and johns seem to be either unwilling or too cowardly to do.
Unless enough people are willing to stand up, take the slings and arrows fired at them from a disapproving society and say "ENOUGH, we are decent, tax paying citizens who are harming NO ONE, not even ourselves" No one is going to fight this battle for us.
Until we collectively grow a pair, I seriously doubt any real progress is going to be made on this front, but you never know.
OK, enough of the dirty talk.
8o)
But seriously, no one wants to be the one to come out and say, hey folks, I see hookers and I think it's a swell idea. Let's legalize it.
But there was one pol, ex-congressman Barney Frank, who, when a state rep in Mass, was pushing to create a sex for sale zone around Boston. He then got elected to Congress, but the idea didn't go too far.
And that's the real roadblock. Until a majority of politicians are willing to face their constituency and advocate for decriminalization, they just wont pass that law. Why wont they do this (at least in today's world)?
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1. Every politician wants to be elected to another term. Taking such a "radical" position (no pun intended) is a one-term strategy.
2. Politicians' spouses (primarily women) will NEVER push their spouses to do this - they already know that many people in power pay for illicit sex and won't ever do anything to make it "easier" or remove the stigma. Oddly enough, these women have the power but don't use it. The irony here is palpable.
3. The politics of "morality" in the US is so well balanced between conservativism and liberalism that it's hard to imagine that decriminalizing will be favored by more than 50% of the population - at least on a national scale. Again, ironic that so many US citizens engage in sex work - either selling or buying - but will never publically advocate for it due to the social stigma.
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Just like women's right to vote, gay rights and weed, the path to a more "accepting" populace is long and non-linear. We are still, at least in our public-facing personae, a Puritan-based culture. Look how long it took (most) US States to drop adultery as a legal basis for divorce. Yet about 50% of US marriages fail in the US.
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Note: Dave will know more about this than I, but there was an item on the ballot in San Francisco a few years ago that would not decriminalize prostitution, but would essentially tell the police not to enforce the anti-prost. laws in favor of recognizing sex-workers who report crimes as victims (only). It did not pass, but it was close.
Great discussion. I have often said we need our Stonewall like the gays did that got them fed up enough to organize and slowly over decades get their gay rights just like we need to get sexwork rights.
Over the years there have been a few of us in the fight but not enough. The post organized is the carious SWOP chapters. I have had extensive discussions over the years with the founder (now sadly deceased. The problem with SWOP and some of the other sexwork groups other than Maxine, myself, "cop to callgirl" gal and a handful of others is the insistence by SWOP etc that decrim include or be focused on street hookers. That is their focus. SWOP Chicago and others are doing a good job helping street hookers, however, the public will never put up with this public nuisance.
This is a huge issue in New Zealand where all prostitution is legal resulting in an uproar of protests from neighborhood groups that do not appreciate all the condoms, drug needles and see so much sex going on in public in front of their homes, businesses, and children.
The referendum herbtcat referred to was in Berkeley - probably the most liberal city in the U.S. However, it was voted down as neighborhoods organized against it since it included street hookers which are almost always a public nuisance. If the referendum had only been about in PRIVATE consenting adults, it may have passed. However, since the prostitution laws are State, the risk was if local LE didn't enforce the law the State might come and enforce it.
As was pointed out trying to change the law politically would be political suicide for any lawmaker that tried to support it. Therefore our only hope is in the Courts such as the current 9th Circuit case. In my view the legal arguments for private sex are strong. I have a concern however that it isn't clear that it should be only decrim for private sexwork. A key issue in the case is if the State has a compelling interest to restrict the activity. There are many good arguments that it does related to street work but almost none that apply to in private, consenting adults.
A contingent of SWs attended and I had several chats with a few of them.
My sense of them is that they would much rather be working BCD rather than the street, but they found the whole computer and internet world beyond them. With some better education, the whole issue of working the streets may some day go away.
My sense of them is that they would much rather be working BCD rather than the street, but they found the whole computer and internet world beyond them. With some better education, the whole issue of working the streets may some day go away.
That is frustratingly why it is so hard to deal with the average street worker, even given other options.
I recall decade+ ago when I met with agency owner at my office. Not Rose, but the one very popular with great husband or boyfriend that worked with her. She told me when opened the agency she thought the guys would be difficult to deal with. No, the guys were great it was the gals showing up for shifts, catfighting etc. And these were like $400/hr escorts. She later moved to the East Coast due to the legal issues in Phoenix.
This is the opposite of what I hear from agency owners and the gals at the big Toronto agencies (all legal of course). They are like a big family, celebrate birthdays, have company gatherings and of course paid better than the typical 50/50 split in the old says with Phoenix agencies. Large volume since legal following their risk reduction model. Rare doesn't make schedules, most have drivers that pick them up at home and go to booking, or between locations of bookings if outcall.
i can agree with you that it would be helpful if more people publicly identified themselves as sex workers or clients of sex workers, but i don't think we should blame those for not coming forward. stigma is real, and so are the consequences.
The "secret" to this is simple and can be addressed with laws already in use in every city in the country, "zoning laws".
This works just fine in many other countries around the world where prostitution is legal, but street activity is limited to certain "zones of tolerance" otherwise know as "red light districts"
I hate to close on a negative note against Dave yet again, but the US hardly has a " proud tradition of leading the way in progressive and nondiscriminatory social policy by decriminalizing sex work"
We have one of the most backwards and regressive policies towards sex work of any non muslim nation in the world, and are hardly a "leader" in this regard. This has almost zero chance of changing until and unless hookers and johns alike stand up to be counted, but don't hold your fucking breath. I bet you there aren't one in a hundred hookers or johns on this board who have the guts to tell even their friends and/or family that they are involved, as either a buyer or seller, of sex work. Until that changes, this industry is going to remain in the shadows.
I have long suggested zones but they have failed in most places tried especially in Europe.
Two issues:
1) Not in my area - just like where to put sex offenders which in some states and certain situations in AZ can be guys in a consenting adult sting.
2) In Europe, it brought in all the pimps and massive numbers of Eastern European women. It got out of control, increased crime etc so got rid of the zoning experiment.
It does seem to work if covers a large area such as Walking Street and the huge area near it in Pattaya Thailand or some of the adult soi's in Bangkok i.e. Soi 11, Nana etc. that I explored years ago.
Even in Amsterdam, the city is limiting brothel/Door licenses to try and limit them from areas since trying to attract more non-sex tourists.
Seems to work to some extent in Mexico, (TJ especially)
However, experience in Europe, Canada, New Zealand (huge uproar against) and these are all countries where legal much less in the U.S.
and as you mentioned, it works just fine in many places in Asia.
A policy of pimping being illegal, prostitution being completely legal, and restricting street activity to a very narrow section/s of town with all other activity required to be 'indoor" with no garish signs out front seems to work just fine in several countries I have visited.
Bogota is a great example. Bogota is a BIG city and has sex workers in virtually every part of the city, but street action is confined to one small "zona" while in the rest of the city you can't even tell from the outside of even the largest brothels what is actually going on inside as none of them are even allowed the smallest signs advertising sex for sale.
Behind your bedroom door.
As long as no one is aware, let people do what they can do for free, only allow the client to give his lover a little honey.
It's not rocket science.
In almost all of Latin America you can do anything you want BCD regardless of what zona you are in without fear from LE, It's only when you take it to the street where people can see you that there are restrictions of where you can be.
As you said, it's not rocket science. Much of the rest of the world already has a very good handle on how to have legal prostitution coexist with "polite society" Dave seems to think it can't work, I am simply pointing out that not only "can it work" but in many places it's already working
What a great subject, something I have experience first hand of!!
I have never been to latin america but I have been all over Asia.
SW is not "legal" in Philippines, China, Thailand or any other country I have lived in or visited. However it accepted and tolerated in certain degrees everywhere.
In Hong Kong you will never find street girls, but you will find entire housing buildings where girls work out of a many single apartments. If you step away from the tourist areas to the area of the locals its more apparent. You can pass a apartment building it may even have a chalk board of room numbers you can visit for services. In the tourist areas you will find bars and almost any single girl in that bar is an escort. But you will not find girls walking the streets out side the bars.
In Thailand two examples. Bangkok has what is called Nana Plaza. The entire area for many blocks in each direction are full of Bars, Clubs, Beer Gardens and Massage stores. Girls will be hang out directly outside the places, but do not really walk the streets as I have seen done in the US. As in China and in the Philippines there are maybe 700-1000 girls in the bars each night, and each bar has a boss who watches each the girls in the bar. If the girl finds a customer, the boss knows and sees them leave the bar. The girl will pay the bar a commission or bar fine usually before she will leave with the customer. She is free go any bar, she pays nothing if she leave alone. She may hang out in many different bars before evening is done. There are a few Zones where the streets are filled with girls, but they are not really "walking" the streets they are mostly getting foods, see friends out side large loud bars or whatever. If they stumble across a guy then good for them is the attitude. In Pattaya is the sex capitol of world is and is very famous "walking street" . Literally has a iron steel arches at the entrance so you know exactly where it starts. This is a Zone but in real the entire one half the city is a Zone. Walking street is simple almost a Km long and here you will find girls in street and every store has a girls that are escort. This is where i see my first and only Monkey show, so gross but so funny, and no its not sex.
Philippines is same with small exception. In most city is a small area that has concentrate SW. Clubs and bars and cafe. In Manila it is the area where Makati goes from modern world to old world. This section is where we call Borgus street. Also there is another area called EDSA complex. Here you will find girls and lady boy walking streets. But they keep to strict area. Each place not more than one Km long. But any bar anywhere in Manila almost has at least a few girls to 50 girls working in it By working I mean they are there and always pay a commission if they get customer . When I was first younger I was to meet a few friends at a plaza to go out for shopping. I was very early and wanted a snack and have a drink. I go in bar and order. A guy at table next to me try talk to me. A girl walk up to me and told me i do not work here and single girls not allowed talk to the guy customers. Angeles is a city devoted to SW. Field ave like the walking street in Thailand. You will never find girls out of that Zone walk the streets. At one time bars had actually a person that the government license is called a GRO. GRO means Gust Relations Officer, hahah, These girls pay to be bar girls and not get hassle by police. But that was long ago and now nobody pay and police don't care.
I think also that many Americans not understand that most tourist do not drive around looking for fuck in big foreign cities. Driving is a hell in Bangkok, Manila and Macau. Only the brave and stupid drive. There is no way to pull over and chat a girl walking street. There is no where to park and often just walking faster than car in these zone. If you drive you will always make mistake and the police will always want a bribe to not give you ticket. The idea of SW in these countries is wide accepted. But Asians are a shy. I have friends who are bar girls and every day they will go from where they live to where they work. And Every day what they wear when they get to the zone completely different from what they wear to the work.
Just my experience.
Christine
Great summary and as I remember it.
Stayed at Corporate Inn in Ermita, but armed guard outside a bit concerning than great time in Angles City and then back to Copacabana Apartment Hotel in Pasay City overlooking the EDSA Entertainment Complex. Yes, GRO's licensed and had to have STD checks weekly or a Dr sign off they did. So while technically not legal ignored still for the most part by LE other than a few raids looking for underaged but didn't find any a few years ago. Margarita Station popular and met the owner in Angeles.
In Manila I had a fake wallet in my back pocket and my real wallet in front. Of course, I kept my passport, extra credit cards, return airline tickets and excess cash in the free hotel safe deposit box at the front desk. Despite the street being full of what appeared to be "unsavory characters" I never felt any threat in all my walking the streets either in the Ermita area or in Pasay City.
In BKK and Pattaya all was legal since it was "special services" at "Entertainment Places" (The Entertainment Places Act). My huge reports and pictures still up and get visitors, and my usual huge discussion of the legal issues.
This was before I discovered Canada and have no desire to go back to Thailand or PI but was a great experience. If I can afford it may adventure in June to Frankfurt FKK clubs and doing a huge amount of research before trip
The only way to legalize prostitution is a years if not decades long process of taking over the judicial branch of the government. First hobbyists will have to go to law school for three years. Then they will have to get jobs in prosecutors offices. They can then get promoted to charging attorneys and use their charging discretion to say that the prostitution cases have no likelihood of conviction, or find some other loophole LE messed up on such as not Mirandizing properly, violating search and seizure relating to phone/computers, or not getting a clear prostitution contract, or violating substantive due process by being nude or touching the defendant prior to the arrest. Then hobbyists will have to become trial court judges, which they can skew rulings in favor of prostitution. Then they can get appointed to appellate court judges and then then can change the law to strike it down.
This is probably the only way to take over the government and clearly the judicial branch is most easily hijacked due to inherent security flaws and weaknesses from outside infiltrations.