"A person accused of paying for sex during a massage (or giving sex during a massage) is rarely, if ever, going to trial." True, but the same is true of almost any comparably minor crime. There is nothing special about prostitution cases in this regard.
"If a trial does happen for some reason, it's not likely to be heard by a jury. It will be heard by a judge, and of course he's not going to be fooled." A defendant who wants a jury and properly requests one will have a jury. That's a constitutional guarantee. No court can force someone who has properly requested a jury to make do without one. The problem is that juries aren't any more likely to be fooled than judges.
"He, and at least half the lawyers in the room have probably patronized the same "salon" more than once." I guess anything's possible, but I doubt that the numbers would be so high. I don't know why you presume that the judge and at least half the lawyers would even be men, let alone that such a high percentage of them will turn out to be hobbyists.
"If you have an aggressive lawyer and the prosecution's case is shaky, then the prosecution is likely to back down, offer a great deal or even drop the charges." Sorry, but that's not really how it works. The prosecution will offer a deal in most cases, but will almost never just drop the charges unless a key witness dies or new information comes to light that persuades it the defendant is innocent. Defendants who don't like the deals they are offered will go to trial no matter how aggressive their lawyers are.
Hi, I'm posting to get any kind of advice I can get. I've been working on and off for about a year posting on CL doing erotic nude massages (I'm not licensed and it has a happy ending). I only do incalls out of my own home in Ohio. So far I've had no mishaps. I have three questions. What can happen if I get caught by LE (would be my first offense...never had trouble with law before)? Can the LE pose as a client, get a full session (to make sure what i do in sessions), leave, and then schedule another appointment some other day as a returning client just to bust me (I'm asking because I'm not sure what LE are allowed to do)? Lastly, if any other provider does the same thing I do and has had experiences of this, can you give me any tips or share experiences? Thanks so much... I've been really worried of late because I JUST recently found out erotic massages are illegal too.
you've come to the right place, because that's just the kind we dispense here, in buckets, no less.
OK, one at a time:
1. If you are caught by LE in a sting where you accept money and offer to or actually perform a sexual act in exchange for that money, then you will have broken the law and will be arrested. In most areas this is a misdemeanor and will involve a fine and perhaps a court appearance. There's a good chance you'll be in the lockup overnight too, which is probably the worst part of it. You will also have a record, and that sucks too. With a good lawyer, you might get the case continued without a finding, but that good lawyer is going to cost you a couple of G's before you are done. If you get arrested again before the continuance ends (usually six months) you may end up like poor Paris Hilton, so be extra careful during that time.
The lesson here is to screen carefully. Being on Craig's List is also like putting a target on your back. Try to find other places to advertise.
2. Yes, LE poses as clients all the time. It's their job. They can do the whole session, hand release and all then arrest you right then and there or come back later if they want to.
3. I'll leave the last part to other providers, but I bet that screening and dumping Craig's List will among the top suggestions.
One question you didn't ask was about advertising yourself as a massage provider despite not having a license for same. You'll have to research the law in Ohio, or perhaps the county you are in, but where I live in Massachusetts, that is a felony and a serious one at that.
I suggest that you change the word "massage" to "body rub" to avoid this problem. Don't worry, the guys will still know what you're talking about.
Good luck in any case. I love massages myself and wish more gals provided that service.
I hope this helped.
as always,
(still not a lawyer)
thanks mrfisher it did help. I don't intend on getting a massage license for this (I'm a full time student already). I know I have to start advertising in another place/screening but I'm so lost in where to go. Anyone point me in the right direction please?
Eros seems to be the most popular site, but they are pricey.
Particpation on boards like TER's or EscortBlogs seems to work for some gals as well, and costs only your time.
The best advice will come from other providers, find ways to network with them.
Many providers are very open and willing to help if you are sincere with them.
on my links page there is a lady who will help you set up whatever it is you are needing to set up . She is well known on the boards and is an assistant and knows her stuff .
Both her banners are up on my page . You will be able to talk with her and see how professional and knowlegable she is in the biz .
Good luck to you !
-Layla
I live in Pa and am also an erotic masseuse. I used to not to screen my clients but I started doing it when my lawyer friend told me they just busted 2 girls for massage here in PA. I was pretty sure LE cannot get nacked and get a service but they actually can! They got full sessions from those girls and arrested them when they were done. Pa is the only state where you do not need a licence to do massages.
Hi, I'm actually not sure of the legalities of this but I'll tell you what I do: I'm a sensual massage therapist in MN and I have my clients fill out a client waiver form before they enter my studio.
"Please initial before every statement that you fully understand:
_______ Client acknowledges that while this session is therapeutic and healing in nature it should not take the place of regular visits to a doctor or other alternative healer.
_______ Client acknowledges that THE PRICE of this session covers a full body MASSAGE and at no time during this session does THE PRICE cover any acts which are sexual in nature.
_______ Client acknowledges that at no time during this session will any money be transferred in exchange for sexual favors.
_______ By signing this statement client is stating that he/she is in a healthy condition to be receiving a full body massage and that any injury occurring during, before, or after this session is the complete and sole responsibility of the client."
And then I ask them to sign their full name. When this is done and the money is on the table I take them into my studio for the massage that they paid for. During the session I ask them if it's okay with them if I take off my top, if they say yes I continue.. is it okay with them if I touch them in places that will be more easily aroused.. if they say yes, I continue... etc..
consenting adults having some fun.. but I'm being paid only for a massage. (as it states on the legal document that they signed)
The only trouble I've had in the year that I've been doing this is I've had only two prospective clients complain about filling out the paper work. They don't sign the papers, they don't enter my studio. If you go to any professional massage or chiro office, they will not let you get on the table without filling out the client waiver form.
I don't know... it has worked for me so far...
hope that helps.
If you think your waiver form or your procedures will protect you from being arrested, think again.
What matters is what you actually do, not what your form says you will do or what it claims is or isn't included in the price.
Asking your clients to consent to each step also won't make what you do legal or prevent you from being prosecuted. Prostitution and related offenses are consensual by definition, so getting consent changes nothing.
i agree that the form is a waste of time. however, sex is not illegal, having sex with a stranger is not illegal, and touching of the pee-pee during a massage session is not illegal.
it's when you agree to do any of these things for money that it becomes illegal.
so, if your massage is "one price fits all", and you (the masseuse) should happen to become overcome with passion during all that rubbing, and totally unable to resist the touching of the pee-pee, you have broken no law (unless of course the client objects, at which point it becomes sexual assault).
if on the other hand you charge $xx dollars for a massage and then negotiate an additional fee for the touching of the pee-pee, then all the things mr. fisher warns about above may very well come true.
i'm also not a lawyer, but my ex-wife works for the district attorney. also, my cousin's best friend's next-door-neighbor's sister-in-law's nephew's boy scout troop leader once got a massage.
Has any competent court of law actually adjudicated any case where the touching of the wee wee (That's what we call them up here in the northeast.) in a massage type situation was ruled kosher?
For all the opinions that we bandy about ourselves, the only ones that count are the ones that real judges hand down.
Anyone there have Lexis-nexis?
(Still not a lawyer, but I have had my wee wee touched during a massage.)
It's not "when you agree to do any of these things for money that it becomes illegal". It's when you ACTUALLY do these things for money. An express agreement is not part of the definition of the crime. That's why all the precautions ladies take to avoid the appearance of such an agreement are pointless.
Sure, if all you pay for is a massage and then you and the masseusse get carried away in the moment, there's been no crime. But if you merely pretend that it what happened then your pretense is irrelevant. People who go into a massage expecting a happy ending and who pay a fee based on that expectation have not gotten carried away in the moment.
If a masseusse charges far more than the going rate for a massage, uses titilating photos of herself in her ads, etc., no judge or jury is going to be fooled. You can inists that I'm wrong all you want, but if the day comes when you find youself in court you shouldn't be surprised when the jurors find themselves overcome and convict you.
I wasn't looking for an argument or criticising your post, nor did I mean to disagree strongly. I do agree that the form has little value. I wasn't putting a lot of stock in the difference between "agreeing" to do the act and doing the act - I just meant that the difference lies in whether you do the act because you are being paid or because you are horny.
A person accused of paying for sex during a massage (or giving sex during a massage) is rarely, if ever, going to trial. If a trial does happen for some reason, it's not likely to be heard by a jury. It will be heard by a judge, and of course he's not going to be fooled. He, and at least half the lawyers in the room have probably patronized the same "salon" more than once.
What really happens in the majority of these kinds of cases depends on how the DA and the defense feel about the case. If the evidence is in favor of the prosecution, the defense lawyer will recommend that you accept the terms which vary depending on your legal history - fines, probation, maybe jail time if you've been real bad (or if it's an election year). If you have an aggressive lawyer and the prosecution's case is shaky, then the prosecution is likely to back down, offer a great deal or even drop the charges.
Just a thought... and the reason that the waiver makes me feel safe...
It's just me and another person in the studio. No matter what happens in the studio it's just me and the other person who know. The only actual proof of anything that may have gone down is a peice of paper with his signature on it stating that the money that is in the envelope is for a massage only. That is the only proof besides his word against mine. And he signed the paper stating that this money is for a massage only. So, to me, it isn't a waste of time.
Of course, my clients come to my home.. not a hotel or any other place where there can be recordings... and I undress my clients myself... all the way down to their "pee-pees". I enter the studio with them and stay with them the whole time they are in there.
That waiver is as legal as any document in the court of law, the same as if I am a chiropractor and ask my client to sign a waiver stating that I am not responsible for any injury that may be caused during our session. That they enter this session at their own risk. If they sign it then it holds up in court.
It doesn't matter what pictures I use, what I advertise, or what happens before the session. If my client signs a document stating that he is paying for a massage only, even if he is LE, then all that matters to the court is hard evidence. He just paid for a massage. His signature is the only hard evidence they have to go on. Everything else is simply hear-say.
Imagine if someone sold wrapping papers for many times their actual value and had his cusotmers sign a form that said the money was only for the paper, and that if there happened to be marijuana inside that was just a private matter which had nothing to do with the transaction. How well protected do you think he would be if he were charged? Do you think an undercover cop's signature on the form would prevent a conviction? Why do you think you're any better protected than my hypothetical dealer is?
You say "all that matters to the court is hard evidence" and that testimony is unimportant. You're wrong. People get convicted solely on the basis of testimony all the time. If you seriously believe that you can't be convicted even if your customer turns out to be a cop then you're delusional.
Not all testimony is hearsay, as you seem to believe. Most testimony isn't hearsay, and most that is will often be admissible under one or more of the many broad exceptions to the hearsay rule.
You may be comfortable with the system you have in place, but your comfort is an illusion.
Hard evidence... there is an illegal substance in your wrapping papers... everyone can see it, so the buyer signed the papers that he's only buying the papers but the evidence suggests otherwise...
How can there be any hard evidence in the case of a massage between two consenting adults getting overheated and leading to sex? The only hard evidence is, again, the paper of intent. The legal document that states the intention of the session was for a massage only with the signature of a client.. even if the client turns out to be a cop. He signed the paper, showing his intent, proving my intent and paying for the intended massage session.
His testimony would look pretty silly if he tried to say that I took advantage of him, or that he didn't want the session to get heated, or that he really was paying for sex... even though he signed a document saying that no, he wasn't paying for sex.
Sorry, hard evidence beats out. Your scenario is a farce.
Let's see here. My analysis is based upon three years of intense graduate study of the law plus tens of thousands of hours of practice over the many years since. Yours is based upon your own wishful thinking. Yet you believe you are qualified to say that my explanation is farcical. That's a fine way to treat someone who is trying to help you better understand the risks you are taking.
If you are right that only physical evidence matters, then why are so many people in jail for prostitution based solely on the testimony of others?
Yes, my example would include physical evidence while yours wouldn't. But once again you are missing the point. The disputed issue in each case is not what physically happened but rather the state of mind of the participants. Most criminal cases involve questions of the defendant's state of mind.
One problem with my example is that I didn't explain myself very well. The issue in my scenario is whether the defendant was guilty of possession for sale, not of simple possession. My analogy wasn't perfect, but the point I was trying to make still stands.
Possession for sale is a much more serious crime, and what distinguishes it from simple possession is the defendant's mental state. In this way it is like the difference between having sex and having sex for money -- mental state is the only distinction between the two.
A signed piece of paper does not prove intent. It proves only that someone signed the piece of paper. Writing down a lie and then signing it does not magically transform it into the truth. A self-serving form like the one you describe is not going to fool anyone.
If I sign a statement that says I shot President Kennedy would that prove my guilt? Of course not. Why should signing something that basically says "what I am about to do is not a crime no matter how much it might look like one" be taken any more seriously?
If you want to disregard what I'm telling you, that's your business. But if you get arrested (I hope you won't, btw) and hear your lawyer tell you that your "waiver" form will prove nothing, remember where you heard it first. And when your criminal record interferes with your plans later in life, think again about just how farcical my explanation really was.
Oh Sideone... let me know if you're ever in MN. I would love for you to come and have a massage, of course you'd have to sign the client waiver first. 
Have a good evening, you lovely brilliant legal mind you....
If you go running around like crazy and break your leg, don't come running to me. 8o)
By the way, Kudos on letting moorpassion have the last word.
It shows not only legal brilliance but a fine understanding of women.
(still not a lawyer)
People don't believe things because of any intellectual sort of logic. They believe because of their own *personal* type of logic, which is rarely completely reproducible. And citation to authority assumes acceptance.
And that's why we have lawyers, because there will ALWAYS be somebody who INSISTS on screwing it up. There's nothing you can do about it, and you can't worry about it. Just relax and wait until they come crying to you or somebody else. And if the issue never arises in their life, then it's no harm, no foul. If there are no damages, there's no offense, just as there is no (audible) sound when a tree falls where there's nobody to hear it.
You and everybody else in the USA, can tell her that she doesn't know jackshit about evidence law, and when the sheriff locks her cute ass away, she'll tell you that there's a secret nobody wants you to know, that paying income taxes is voluntary.
That's your cue to stop fighting a losing battle, and move the battlefield to one that everybody wins, ie., turn her over your knee and spank her ass.
BTW, thanks for your many cogent discussions of these issues. But you (and indeed the process or subject) is WAAAAY above the heads of even half of college grads. You just do the best you can, as much as you can.
do you really think that putting something in writing proves what a person is thinking?
Has nobody ever lied to you in writing?
If nobody has, then let me be the 1st to warn you, it happens A LOT. That's the reason checks bounce, and that's a freaking INDUSTRY.
and assumed a new name?
sidone: you are the prince of patience. Thanks for your pro bono work.
-- Modified on 6/23/2007 12:09:22 PM
"A person accused of paying for sex during a massage (or giving sex during a massage) is rarely, if ever, going to trial." True, but the same is true of almost any comparably minor crime. There is nothing special about prostitution cases in this regard.
"If a trial does happen for some reason, it's not likely to be heard by a jury. It will be heard by a judge, and of course he's not going to be fooled." A defendant who wants a jury and properly requests one will have a jury. That's a constitutional guarantee. No court can force someone who has properly requested a jury to make do without one. The problem is that juries aren't any more likely to be fooled than judges.
"He, and at least half the lawyers in the room have probably patronized the same "salon" more than once." I guess anything's possible, but I doubt that the numbers would be so high. I don't know why you presume that the judge and at least half the lawyers would even be men, let alone that such a high percentage of them will turn out to be hobbyists.
"If you have an aggressive lawyer and the prosecution's case is shaky, then the prosecution is likely to back down, offer a great deal or even drop the charges." Sorry, but that's not really how it works. The prosecution will offer a deal in most cases, but will almost never just drop the charges unless a key witness dies or new information comes to light that persuades it the defendant is innocent. Defendants who don't like the deals they are offered will go to trial no matter how aggressive their lawyers are.
Just to further add to sidone's great comments.
A jury trial is only constitutionally guaranteed if the maximum penalty that could be assessed is greater than 6 months. (Federal law, which means your state could have a different set up and guarantee one for lesser offenses).
As to the "prosecution's shaky case", the prosecutor must have a belief beyond a reasonable doubt that his case will prevail. If he does not it is prosecutorial misconduct. I know TV and movies show otherwise, but more than likely the prosecutor has enough evidence to convict every time he/she brings a case. It is the defense attorneys that through evidence and defenses lower the charges or win in court.
What surprised me the most was that even the Police Union spokesman came down on the opposite side of one of their own.
In any case, If you have FBI engaging with the Mafia on crimes in order to infiltrate them, it's a bit hard to fault a cop for getting this involved with a prostitute.
That line about the erection was fatuous in the extreme. What are they supposed to do, only assign cops with prostate problems?
Mr. Fisher, I researched your question this morning. The defendants took a bench trial before a well-known defense-oriented female judge. Ms. Freeman evidently took a plea bargain to misdemeanor solicitation for one year probation with dismissal of the remaining charges. The judge acquitted Ms. Miller of all charges.
"They can do the whole session, hand release and all then arrest you right then and there or come back later if they want to."
Is this really true?
definitely talk to an attorney. In Florida you can say rub licensed but you better not in Texas or Maryland. It is legal to say private viewing In DC. Attorneys give free consultations and may only charge $ 100 to talk to you. RETAIN one. One word can get you in trouble. You should know what you CAN say. My website is legal. Have a look at it.
Some states and some counties even in Cali. do not require a license at all.
Be smart and Best wishes, Shilo
www.bodyexotic.massage4body.com
It may seem like a bit much for some, but I ask for employment info to verify as well as TWO provider references. Nothing is failsafe, but it makes me feel better and I've met some truly wonderful gentlemen.
As a result, I keep a very low volume since there are fewer gents who are willing to provide that much info, but the ones who do are grateful that I am so careful. And since I already have a full-time job and this is only part-time, I will never compromise my safety for money. It's just not worth it.
In short, my best advice is: Do not "depend" on the money, and SCREEN, SCREEN, SCREEN.
Good luck and BE CAREFUL!
Bella