As a relatively new hobbyist ( I have seen 4 providers) I get a little freaked out about this LE business and try to protect myself.
I used well reviewed providers that have teir own websites and do outcalls only having them come to my hotel. I got a little suspecious when a did a tel # search on one of the ladies and the phone # came up registered to a guy in a different town. Had no problems with her however and have since been told this is not unusual.
What is protocal for when the girl gets to your room? Are there questions you should or should not ask? Make her take the lead?
Any info would be greatly appreciated
It sounds like you are taking every reasonable precaution.
As for what to do when she is in the room?
Well, it is common for her to take the lead somewhat. You do have to leave the envelope however somewhere conspicuous, often gals have specific instructions on how to handle that; just follow them.
If you do, however, find yourself in a room with LE, you will not be having a good day, no matter what you say or do.
I have a hard time imagining a female cop entering a hotel room alone on an outcall. Am I wrong or does this not compromise her safety? Do they ever really do this? On top of that, its pretty manpower intensive to go from one outcall to the next to make misdemeanor soliciting arrests (as opposed to their normal stings on a street corner or working a pair of adjoining rooms).
MVR
LE likes to operate on their turf. If they are going to set up a sting it will generally be an in call.
Of course the easiest way to get your ass into trouble is to assume that you nothing to worry about. Always have the radar up. I do mainly out calls myself but that is primarily because neither of my ATF's live near me. When traveling I am less concerned about LE on out calls then I am about just plain old bad service. As always the best way to be safe and satisfied is to stick with well reviewed providers.
Forget about stings, some of these girls operate incall from their home or apartment. It's just a matter of time before a neighbor figures out what is going on and complains to LE. That would be the night you walk in....
First of all, 'incall' is not necessarily from their actual home. Most often, in my experience, the provider has a separate incall (hotel room or even a dedicated apartment) to keep her professional life disconnected with her real one.
I have seen a couple of providers who actually worked from their home in a normal residential neighborhood. While I wondered about 'what the neighbors thought' I also figured 'not my problem.' A larger concern was who else might be inside that 3000 sq foot place? Whatever, it all worked fine.
Secondly, its probably easier to get righteously indignant and tell a cop to go to hell on the sidewalk of a private residence than approaching a 'by the week' or worse 'by the hour' hotel/motel room. "Why am I here? To visit a FRIEND in her HOME and anything else is none of your damn business and NO I don't have to answer your questions or prove I know her real name etc." Also if you are actually going to her home, its a lot easier to scan the neighborhood and spot someone watching her home.
Having said all that, outcall to a neutral location (hotel room) is my preference. Meet in the bar for a drink and adjourn to play. Never mention money&sex in person and observe anyone that might be following you (if she is LE she will have one partner minimum - or it could be her 'manager' coming along to confront/roll you).
Thats my .02 on it
MVR
When a lady is arrested in an outcall setting, the only state law charge that can be levied in most cases is a SINGLE charge of solicitation or prostitution.
When a lady is arrested in an incall setting, she not only is charged with this offense but, depending on the state, may be also charged with operating a brothel, disorderly house, or bawdy house.
You say, wait a minute – an incall is not a brothel, disorderly house, or bawdy house. There’s only one girl, there’s no bar, there’s no red light, there’s no piano player and it does not look like what I’ve seen in the movies.
Well, the statutes in many states are written far more broadly than that. Take the Virginia statute for example:
It shall be unlawful for any person to keep any bawdy place, or to reside in or at or visit, for immoral purposes, any such bawdy place. Each and every day such bawdy place shall be kept, resided in or
visited, shall constitute a separate offense. In a prosecution under this section the general reputation of the place may be proved.
As used in this Code, "bawdy place" shall mean any place within or without any building or structure which is used or is to be used for lewdness, assignation or prostitution.
So a bawdy house is any building used for prostitution. And if a lady rents a room at the Red Roof Inn for a week of incall, she has committed SEVEN separate offenses plus the prostitution charge.
If she is so clueless as to use her house, she also faces forfeiture of her property in some states.
Finally there is a serious question as to whether state laws prohibiting prostitution in an outcall setting are constitutional, given the recent S.Ct. case expanding the right of privacy to strike the Texas sodomy statute when the police made an arrest in a private residence. You do not have this defense in an incall setting.
So I repeat, incall is always such a bad idea if you are concerned about violating the law.
While I grant everything you say is true and its NOT a smart idea for her to use her real home for all the reasons you cite, its not my problem, its hers. By the same token, if I do OUTCALL to MY place or a room I rent, why couldn't they bring all the same seven charges against me? The way I read it that ANY house used for prostitution is a brothel therefore if anyone is going to have a home seized, it isn't going to be me. I stand by my statement that the optimum is to do outcall to a neutral hotel
MVR
The Virginia statute would literally encompass outcall as well and make the guy a violator. I guess the only solution in Virginia is to do it outside!
Of course other states probably do not have such a broad statute defining a brothel as any building used for sex. But this is why a lady has to carefully read the statute in her state to understand what is prohibited. Relying on her friends to tell her is not a good idea.
Note that all of these posts were written from the standpoint of the lady, not the client. As to either, however, I agree that by far the most prudent approach is outcall to a neutral hotel, the bigger the better.
I don't care if it's a separate working location or her own home. It just draws too much attention from LE AND you never know who else is around.
The only two times I have come close to getting busted in over 20 years of hobbying was in two instances where I used a brothel located in a house in a residential area and an agency that rented apartments. I showed up at the brothel one night and spotted an unmarked squad car as I turned the corner looking for a parking spot. I swung around the block and sure enough to plain cloths detectives were on the front steps talking to the guy who ran the brothel. I drove away, they place got busted the next night.
The apartment situation was even worse. They got busted and the owner was convicted of human trafficking as she was forcing illegal Brazilian immigrants into prostitution.
In call or out call can both be perfectly safe when you stick with well established ladies who know how to conduct their business with discretion.
Personally, I am more comfortable having a second residence to work from than I am working out of hotels. If done properly it can be very safe. Know your neighbors and be a good neighbor, have a cover story, no more than one or two visitors on any day, etc.
Have you ever seen hotel security rooms? Walls of video monitors. Between that and housekeeping and the front desk...
Yikes!
: O
I'm not so sure that it's solely the provider's problem when a neighbor gets wise to the purpose for which she uses her home. What if the neighbor starts to take down the license-plate numbers of the provider's guests? I don't know how often it happens in practice -- maybe someone can tell me -- but I'd fear that LE might seize my car. Remember that the standard of proof to obtain forfeiture of an asset is generally less demanding than that for a criminal conviction.
...an engine falls off a jet airliner and crushes you in her bed?
...her psycho exhusband breaks down the door and sprays you with an Uzi?
...Gabriel blows his horn and it all ends just before you cum?
Yeah..it all COULD happen, but what are the odds? This is a MISDEMEANOR folks, do you really think LE is going to start towing cars off the street and trying to do Asset Forfeiture cause you are visiting a suspected provider in a private residence/apartment? What if you are the guy doing an estimate for new carpeting or just visiting the house NEXT DOOR and parked in front of her house?
Give me a BREAK here! If you want TOTAL safety, fly in to Vegas and go out to Pahrump to Cherie's or the Bunny Ranch. The Hobby is not without risk. Get over it.
MVR
I do not know if this is true in all juristictions but I had a lawyer friend tell me that in Massachusetts LE is not allowed to set up a website. It is considered entrappment here if LE were to set up the site, list prices and entice someone to a meeting.
Any thoughts?
but I'm glad if it is true.
There is a lot of semi-entrapment that goes on however:
Down in Auburn Mass, which is just off the Mass Pike (exit 10), there are a lot of motels which some gals think are good places to do business. The local LE chief has another idea. He visits the motel managers frequently and convinces them to play ball with him. Thus, if the motel manager has a single female staying there with a lot of men coming and going the manager will drop a dime to LE. LE shows up and waits to see a likely customer approaching and threatens to bust him unless he plays ball which inevitably ends up with him turning evidence again the gals.
Needless to say, all providers want to avoid this town and its trap.
This was all detailed in the local paper a little over a year ago.
(still not a lawyer)
Personally I would not see a lady that worked out of a motel. The lack of a lobby just makes it too easy for LE to track traffic in and out of a gal's room. I have done out calls in motels but it is entirely different for a guy to be checked in and visited by one lady then it is for a lady to be checked in and have guys knocking on her door every hour. it's just asking for trouble.
Honestly, a little research on Priceline will get you a hotel room in a decent two or three star property for what you would normally pay for a Red Roof or Motel 6.
Thank you for the tip on motels... very wise!
skb
While that would not be entrapment as a matter of law, I can see LE making the decision that it opens the door to an entrapment defense that a jury might buy on the proper facts, and that therefore it is a poor use of scant LE resources.
LE knows that they can do a lot of things that are not 'by the book' and get away with them because the people they arrest usually do not have the money to hire a lawyer to fight it in court nor are they willing to suffer the embarrassment it would bring.
The rub comes when its something quantifiable; they can write you a speeding ticket essentially anytime they want cause you can't prove you were NOT speeding but a DUI requires a blood test. Now if you WERE to show up in court with a print-out of the online ad you answered showing a sexy photo of what turned out to be a female cop and text implying prostitution, their embarrassment would be huge. Imagine a decent attorney getting the female cop on the stand and asking her about the photo shoot etc. It could be hysterical and I think the prosecutor would cut a very favorable plea deal or drop the case altogether before he let that happen. Again, it calls for a huge lawyer bill.
Probably the only real lesson-learned out of all this is to WALK AWAY if the lady is not the one in the pic in the ad. What LE COULD do is bust a provider then substitute a female cop to bust her pending appointments as they show up. This would assume LE was willing to devote the manpower (female decoy and 2 or 3 cops for the arrest team) to sitting around her place to make one misdemeanor arrest every couple of hours (at best).
MVR
Unless you're in a jurisdiction where it's legal, there's always some risk... but the rules work for a reason. If something is not usual or appears sloppy, it should set off warning bells!
I think most hotels know (on some level) when a lady is working there. I think (in truth) they like the extra occupancy days. But NO hotel can afford to piss off LE, and must cooperate if asked to. Discrete ladies are safer, for us & them.
skb
One thing to be careful is the "hotel trap" as I call it.
The foremost consideration of LE in a sting with a copchick as bate is her safety. Having your bate copchick get beaten up is a career ending experience for her supervisors.
This is why they will NEVER let her in a hotel room alone with you.
The "hotel trap" is this. The "provider" asks to meet you in a public place, such as the lobby or hotel bar. Now, this can be legitimate as some providers want to meet you first and have you pass a general "weirdness test", to see that you are not someone they don't want to be with.
If ever asked to meet a lady in public remember that the ONLY legitimate reason to see you in public is for the "weirdness test" and nothing more. If legitimate, she will great you and talk to you like any two people do when they meet for the first time. The conversation will run along the lines of: How are you? Are you in town long? How is the weather? Did you just get in? How is the hotel?
Some ladies will let you buy them a drink. Maybe they have been busy and need a break. Most will spend no more time than to check you out and make sure you are a normal guy. The "wierdness test can be over in 90 seconds. What a legitimate lady will NEVER do is say anything she would not say in front of her mother. If the conversation turns to: What are you looking for? Hey honey, what do you like? Why did you call me? What kind of fun did you want to have? Then the chances are: 5% you have a legitimate provider who also happens to be a moron; or 95% the tape is turning and everything you say is being recorded.
As a friend in banking once told me: "Forgers have the best ID." And, it is true of the bate girls that LE uses. You cannot tell the real from the bate...it is designed that way. So, if the conversation takes a turn where you are asked a question that a lady would not ask you in front of mom, any question about what you want or what you like, then the smart move -- and the only move -- is to say something polite along the lines of, "I am afraid there has been a misunderstanding. Good evening." You then get up, turn around and walk slowly away. No turning back. No second chance. Just remember James Worthy and that hotel lobby in Dallas. Worthy was sure she was real....as the reels turned and his words were recorded.
No female cop is going into your hotel room with you alone. If she meets you in the lobby/bar and the chit chat goes ANYWHERE NEAR trying to pull a solicitation from you.... BYE!
Who was James Worthy?
MVR
see Wiki for details.
(Click link.)