I do not consider any of the guys in this thread to be trolls- to the contrary, they are all well respected posters. I have read excellent posts from all of them and I have learned from all of them.
And I do not think they literally meant “cops lie all the time” – I suspect there was some degree of rhetoric here.
But the reason I responded is that it is a common view on TER that LE is dishonest. And many of the people who have this belief based it on personal experience with a cop or two.
When addressing LE as a whole, however, that is not my view and I have consistently posted in opposition to anyone who takes the view that cops as a whole are a rogue group. We see this in the periodic posts that – “they will arrest you just for showing up” at a sting site – or in MVR’s posts that cops will give you a pat down at a whim without making any effort to satisfy the constitutional standard – as well as the current “all cops lie” post.
I always oppose these kind of posts when I see them. And I always say "I have seen no facts" that would support this view to give them an opportunity to support their statements. They never do.
So, from my chair, there is some value in expressing the opposite view that the great majority of law enforcement personnel are hard working, professional, and honest. As will all our opinons, the reader can decide credibility for us.
First, when I enter the incall, I kiss the lady hello while give her breast a rub.
I think it helps reassure one another that neither of us is LE.
I then excuse myself to the BR to wash my hands.
I leave my watch, cellphone, keys, and the donation on the BR vanity.
Instead of an envelope, I leave the bills clipped together with a large paper clip or 2.
When I exit the BR, I simply point to the BR. I may say "I left some things in there" if she seems puzzled.
She easily can figure things out.
This gives me the potential for deniability, as the donation [my 'money clip'] lies next to my other possessions.
There is no envelope to give the impression of obscurement.
You are kidding yourself if you think this will keep you from getting busted. If you wind up in a room with LE you are going downtown even if you hide the money around the room and leave a treasure map on the back of the toilet...
As has been repeated here many times, LE only cares about arrests, not convictions and the arrest can often be enough to ruin your life.
The safest way to protect yourself from LE is not to wind up in a room with them in the first place. Look here on TER for well-reviewed providers who screen their clients.
...my way seems to be better.
[no passage or deposit of an envelope containing $$]
Your ignoring the fact that you WILL get arrested if you are involved in a sting regardless of how you proceede.
So, what we are talking about here is fighting a conviction for soliciting a prostitute based on a lack of evidence. You will pay a lawyer thousands of dollars to convince a judge that you where not looking for sex with that woman that you where alone in a room with. You may or may not get off but you WILL be embarrassed at work and most likely destroy whatever relationship you may have with a spouse or SO.
I wish you good luck and I honestly hope you never have to test your theory.
I'll stick with avoiding trouble in the first place rather than being fool-hardy enough to think I can outsmart LE.
you put the the envelope on the table, or wherever, without saying anything. How hard is that????
Swim
Most ladies want the donation in advance... which secures their money but increased the risk if LE is present.
My Fav lady is old school... the donation is made after. NO, I will not id her so the rip off guys can find her! I empty my pocket junk on her dresser, just as I do at home. When I redress, the donation is left there. I never mention it or look at it again, nor does she, but in the course of dressing, bathroom & etc, it disappears. If LE were to bust in, I'm having sex with a GF.
If a lady prefers donation in advance, just leave it on a dresser in plain view. I agree an envolupe is silly. I use a paper clip on mine.
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I never use one either, it seems even more incriminating than just leaving the money.
I agree that paying after is in theory the best method, too bad that so many cheap assholes have fucked it up for the rest of us. I would prefer it, but I can certainly understand why most providers would prefer to be paid in advance.
I do have to confess, I am much more likely to tip when paying afterwards.
One of my favs started specifying NO envelope after some loser tried to give her funny money a few years ago.
The hobby is filled with mythology that doesn't really protect anyone. Grabbing the boob or the crotch for an "LE Check" , putting the money in an envelope so the lady can claim she didn't know what was in there...it's all BS and won't keep you out of the back of a squad car if you wind up in a room with a cop.
Oh well...it's makes for some comical reading here on TER but that's about all it's good for.
cops always lie. Always. About even the smallest detail.
LE check is bogus. Cops will have sex with a provider and then will still arrest her and then lie and deny having sex. Who's a judge going to believe - a cop who belongs to a union which can elect the judge (or not) or a so-called hooker?
Of course it is unacceptable for a cop to have sex with a provider before busting her, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
Quoting what is written in a law book and what happens in the real world are two very different things. WTF if we lived in a perfect world, the hobby would be legal and the legal board would have no reason to exist. lol
1. I have seen no facts that would tell me that "cops always lie" and bc they know that, if the suspect files a complaint, their actions will always be reviewed by a professional investigator, they have a real incentive to tell the truth.
Do they tell the facts in the light most favorable to their position and sometimes fudge the details? Of course, but for the most part all facts I have seen say they act professionally.
2. I can tell some of you guys are not familiar with how a vice squad operates. If a lady complains the cop lied or had sex with her, she files a complaint with the vice squad and the credibility determination is made by the vice squad captain in the first instance. (Depending on the size of the unit, there may be a dedicated complaint department). If there is probable cause to believe a crime has been committed, it is turned over to internal affairs.
The judge does not get involved until the lady is prosecuted and the officer does not particularly care what the judge finds, since the judge is not the one who is going to discipline him. The judge may believe but his captain does not.
3. Vice squad captains who use male officers to set up prostitution busts are not clueless. Just as bank tellers are closely monitored to make sure the money does not end up in the wrong place, vice officers are extensively trained as to how far they can go and are acutely aware of how easy it is to determine thru forensic analysis and circumstantial evidence whether they had sex with the lady.
As G says of course it does happen sometimes. Indeed, we had a very well respected cop in DC busted for this. Streetwalkers complained to vice enough that vice actually set up a sting for its own officer!
But all data I have seen say this is the rare exception to the rule.
I am surprised you would even respond to such a moronic post. It would be like responding to the recurring story of the girl who was arrested for just going out on a date and is trying unsuccessfully to get her arrest record expunged.
I disagree with you on many issues; mostly the difference between theory and reality but your posts have always been credible. There is a difference between disagreeing with someone on a specific point and trying to respond intelligently than addressing a post that was authored by an idiot.
There are certain key words and phrases that preface an unqualified statement. "Always, never, everyone knows, I have never, it's common knowledge" etc. are just a few of those telltale harbingers of a statement with no credibility. I realize many of us these words and phases in our every day conversations but that is different than using them when preparing a written document with the purpose of conveying a legal opinion.
In a thousand words or less, Please don't feed the trolls.
I do not consider any of the guys in this thread to be trolls- to the contrary, they are all well respected posters. I have read excellent posts from all of them and I have learned from all of them.
And I do not think they literally meant “cops lie all the time” – I suspect there was some degree of rhetoric here.
But the reason I responded is that it is a common view on TER that LE is dishonest. And many of the people who have this belief based it on personal experience with a cop or two.
When addressing LE as a whole, however, that is not my view and I have consistently posted in opposition to anyone who takes the view that cops as a whole are a rogue group. We see this in the periodic posts that – “they will arrest you just for showing up” at a sting site – or in MVR’s posts that cops will give you a pat down at a whim without making any effort to satisfy the constitutional standard – as well as the current “all cops lie” post.
I always oppose these kind of posts when I see them. And I always say "I have seen no facts" that would support this view to give them an opportunity to support their statements. They never do.
So, from my chair, there is some value in expressing the opposite view that the great majority of law enforcement personnel are hard working, professional, and honest. As will all our opinons, the reader can decide credibility for us.
andl to clarify I was agreeing with BP "point" not necessarily his entire post. His larger point was that LE can and will lie with virtual impunity. If LE lies and it comes down to a he said, she said situation the cop comes out the winner everytime.
I will grant that BP comment that cops lie "all" the time is of course inaccurate, I just chose to agree with his major point rather than point out that flaw in his logic.
Unlike Balboas holier than thou attitude, I don't feel obligated to correct every detail in another members post, especially if I agree with the major gist of his post.
Balboa suffers from a malady that many people from Ca and Ny suffer from. Some (not all) of them them cannot accept anything that comes from the "ignorant south", Balboa suffers from this superiority complex that is very common with people from both the left and right coast, and of course Balboa is also a pompous ass, but he is far from the only one on these boards.
I stand by my post that anyone that thinks that LE will not lie is delusional, but I will concede that Marikod is correct when he points out that it obviously doesn't occur on "every" arrest. I as willing to grant Big Papasan a little "poetic license" on the subject.
As far as Balboa comments are concerned.... I am sure anyone who knows me, knows my opinion on the subject, but I will attempt to remain civil on this board out of respect for DC.
which may be why you see many people here stating that "cops always lie".
maybe it would be more accurate to say that cops NEVER tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth LOL.
also, i'm not aware of any law against cops having sex before arresting a woman for prostitution although in most areas, it is against police procedure and the da wont prosecute these cases because of the potential for embarassment, public outrage and loss of credibility that such actions would reflect upon law enforcement.
"i'm not aware of any law against cops having sex before arresting a woman for prostitution although in most areas, it is against police procedure and the da wont prosecute these cases because of the potential for embarassment, public outrage and loss of credibility that such actions would reflect upon law enforcement."
Actually you are aware of these laws. Police officers are subject to same prostitution laws as you and me. If they pay for sex with a prostitute, they have broken the law and it is no defense that they are LE. Indeed, they face a higher standard than most of us bc in most states if the officer is on duty the lady cannot consent to the act.
In the context of a sting operation, an officer lacks criminal intent when posing as a client if he offers money for sex, so no crime is committed at that point. If, however, he continues and actually has sex with lady, the specific intent need to convict for prostitution is established bc he in most cases he will be found to have had knowledge he is breaking the law.
A police officer conducting a sting operation does have qualified immunity but that immunity only extends to the scope of authority granted him to act undercover. No vice squad captain who wants to remain employed is going to authorize a sting operation where sex is allowed.
As to your DA who is concerned that such prosecutions will show the police in bad light, here is my suggestion for dealing with that. Just leak the story to the local paper and you will soon see that the DA is in such a bad light that he will never be elected again.
I provide only my view as a poster, and without any representation that I have any specific professional standing, and invite discussion. In fact, my fervent hope is that no one is ever "convinced" by what anyone says on this Board.
As stated many times, consultation with a licensed atty in your jurisdiction is what you should do before you become "convinced" of anything.
Now, on the P & R Board, that is a completely different story as I do try to convince some of those conservative wackos that they should be appalled at the way the Bush administration tortured and imprisoned suspected "terrorists" and at the so-called lawyer who wrote opinions saying they could do all this.
I prefer to stay with well reviewed providers, than I don't have to worry how I do the donation as long as I follow the lady's requested method.
As all others have stated, if you're in a room with le, you are going to jail, no matter what you do with the envelop or donation.
Er, this addresses a question I had. I take it this is a hot topic on the legal board, surprise surprise here's a post about it.
Anyways, sooo... he leaves me a donation. I don't want to count it in front of him but I also don't want to assume it's all there or should I assume it is? *I* assume (lovely word, that) that if I've verified him on TER he's not gonna stiff me... money-wise heh.
Bleh. This is so awkward. My gentleman used the potty at advised me he left "that of which we will not speak" on the vanity. But does it go that way every time? That was easy now ya'll are scaring me, lol.
It just depends who the client is. I usually greet the lady, give her a lfk, and then drop the envelop off in clear sight. I never hand it to her. You have the ability to say, on your web site, how exactly you want to handle the donation and many providers do exactly that. If you know the TER handle of the client check to see his reviews. If he has multiple reviews, chances are he will not short the envelop. I always think it's a class move if the lady doesn't pay attention to the envelop until after I leave. Go luck and always screen your clients
It doesn't bother me one bit if a provider counts the money. Trust me? Why? Yes, I'm an honest person, but unless she's psychic, she doesn't know that. We just met! If she has any anxiety about whether she's being paid fairly for her time, I'd rather she got that right out of the way so she could relax and have fun with me. It's not much, but it does give her one reason to begin to trust me a little.
It's not really flattering to have someone say she trusts me when she doesn't even know me yet. It can only mean she trusts everyone, and that's just foolish. It's also foolish to say that someone "looks" honest. Con artists practice winning people's trust, and they're very good at it, so the people who appear the most honest could be the last ones you should trust.
"How do I love thee? Let me count your money."
Go ahead. I don't mind, really. It's your money the minute I set it down anyway.
Some guys will help you out by going to the bathroom so you can check the envelope and some won't. It's really a judgment call on your part as to whether you count the money in front of him or not. It would be nice if you could trust guys but sadly this is not always the case. Sometimes you can't even trust regulars.
Thank you much for the responses, ya'll. I appreciate it.
I know guys get nervious if the lady disappears from view but if the gent does not step out, then I suggest she (discretely if possible) remove the donation, step out of sight, verify it correct, return to the gent as quickly as possible. A bathroom trip fits nicely in this scenerio.
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