I should preface my question by saying that I only use well reviewed, TER providers.  I usally schedule weekday AM appointments, never discuss money or services and I'm prepared to walk away with the "sorry, I think there may be a misunderstanding" line if the provider does say or do anything suspicious.

In LA, there have been a few sting operations in which hobbyists have been questioned by LE while leaving a provider's incall location.  Through my readings in this forum I have been fully prepared if questioned by LE to be respectful but not contribute any self-incriminating information.  I also have my attorney's phone number on speed dial.

I have played this LE conversation in my head many times and it always seems a bit adversarial (which is probably what it should be).  I've thought of saying I was visiting a prospective client about a private investment or merely saying she was a recent aquaintance and we had coffee.

So, how do you think this conversation plays out?  Is there a way to talk with LE that doesn't escalate the tension and makes them move on to a bigger fish?  What's the most I could contribute to the conversation before I have to shut it down?  Any thoughts on this (especially Mr. Fisher)

Thanks.

If LE stops you after an appointment, they have nothing on you except for whatever you say to incriminate yourself. If they actually have anything on you, they won't be questioning you, they'll be arresting you.

My advice is to be polite, but under no circustances admit to any criminal behavior, or knowledge of any criminal behavior. I would not advise creating a "cover story". LE obviously knows what's going on, they need enough probable cause for a warrant. Which they know you can supply if they can apply the right pressure. Remember, depsite what ever the police tell you, you do not have to admit to breaking the law, it is your constitutional right. You do not have to resort to lying.

My response to questioning would be something along the line of, "Am I being accused of a crime? If so, I would like to speak to my attorney, if not, My business in that apartment was of a personal nature and I do not wish nor am I obligated to discuss my personal affairs with the police.

Being the smart ass that I am, I might add soemthing to the effect of"with all due respect, if I were engaged in any illegal activity, do you really think I would be fooliish to share that information with the police? with all due respect of course. I have actually said that to a member of Atlanta's finest, and he was focrced to admit that any further conversation was a waste of time. Whatever you do however, be respectful, there is absolutely nothing to be gained by pissing off LE

Regardless of what you might have read on this or other boards, it is highly unlikely LE would be standing outside a provider’s apartment questioning men they see coming out of the building.  The question you have to ask yourself is what would they accomplish.  The answer is absolutely nothing.  If they did do what you are suggesting you could walk away, call the provider and warn her of the LE. They can’t arrest you regardless of what you tell them because they did not witness the crime.  You could tell them you just paid a girl for sex and walk away.  If they wanted to arrest her they certainly don’t need your cooperation.  We are talking about a misdemeanor, not some major felony.  

Let’s just say for the sake of argument you were stopped by LE.  They would have to give you a reason for stopping you and they would have to ask some type of question.  Your response should depend on the question.  If they asked you where you were, your response should be, “Why are you asking me where I have been, is there a roblem?”  They would have to give you some reason for questioning you.  If they say they are watching a certain apartment, they all you have to say is, “Sorry, I can’t help you.  Have a nice day” and walk away.  They cannot detain you after that unless they have a good reason and you don’t have to answer any questions.  

The two most common ways LE enforces anti prostitution laws is to go after street walkers and set up stings.  Street walkers as a highly visible public nuisance, and they are fairly easy to arrest.  LE can make several arrests with very little effort. When there is no visible prostitution LE claims the problem has been solved.  They know there is lots of prostitution going on behind closed doors but as far as they are concerned it doesn’t exist unless someone makes a complaint.

The second operation is a sting.  They can set up a sting for either hobbyists or providers.  They will rent a motel/hotel room with an adjoining room.  The back up officers wait in the second room until they get the signal a violation has occurred then burst in and make the arrest.  This is the safest, most productive way to operate a sting.  

You have to understand that LE wants to realize the most results with the least amount of effort and danger.  They are not out to catch someone who robbed a bank and got away.  A crime hasn’t occurred until the hobbyist offers money for sex.  Until that happens, the hobbyist is not even a criminal.  If a hobbyist gets away, so what, they haven’t lost a wanted criminal.

Another thing to remember is LE wants to be in complete control.  Why would a single officer walk into a motel room not knowing who was on the other side of the door?  It could be a set up with a guy waiting with a gun to rob the hobbyist.  It would also take longer to make an arrest and be far less productive.  We do this for a hobby and they do it for a living.

I am referring to Southern California. What happens in other areas might be different but just use some common sense.  

About two years ago this very scenario played out in DC. A hobbyist was stopped leaving an incall location of one of DC best asian agencies. The moron fessed up to having recieved a massage and a cbj thus giving LE probable cause to kick the door down on the next slob who had booked with her.

Then a couple of idiot wanna be lawyers on this very board got on their soapbox and endorsed this morons's actions.

Jack, I know you are going to call bullshit on me, so I am posting the link from the original thread back in 2005. You really won't believe  a couple of the really, really stupid opinions voiced on that particular thread.

I didn't say it was impossible, I said it was highly unlikely referring to a provider not a MP.  I also stated "I am referring to Southern California. What happens in other areas might be different but just use some common sense." The thrust of my post was to use common sense and think about what is going on.  The main point was be courteous, firm and don't engage in a conversation with the police.  

I just wanted to point out to you that things like this do happen and not just in "third world countries" like Georgia.

The last time we spoke you called me "full of shit" I thought I would provide the proof before you started calling me a liar once again.

What is your opinion on the bust I referenced?

But I really can't add much more than what GaGambler has said except maybe:  The less said, the better.

(still not a lawyer)

I wasn’t there and I have no direct knowledge about what happened so I can’t say for sure if it occurred the way the poster said it occurred or if it occurred at all.  I wonder what he meant when he said they told him to wait around while they “moved in” on the provider and her next appointment.  Unless there were exigent circumstances they would have to have a warrant to enter her room.  I don’t see where there would be exigent circumstances in this case.  They could have knocked on her door without a warrant but she would not have to let them in. If they already had a warrant why would they wait around to question someone who came out, especially letting him driving away before they stopped him?  I am not familiar with how things are done in Maryland; I just wonder how they gained entry.

You obviously did not read the thread. They were able to get a warrant based on the admission by the hobbyist that there was illegal activity in the apartment, that's why they stopped him. Without his big mouth, they had nothing.

You constantly make statements that things that this can't happen, how many more times do I have to prove it to you that they do? If you don't believe me, research the DC board for the time in question, the agency was planning on sending a couple of their girls here to Atlanta, that's one of the reasons I remember it so well. the two girls they were sending were hot. This stupid fucking idiot, fucked it up for everyone.

As you said, he could have kept his yap shut, drove off and warned the agency, instead he stood around, probably wetting himself and got some poor girl arrested and a very good agency shut down.

last November in Orange County some providers were arrested for prostitution and the hobbyists were being detained and questioned upon leaving the apartment.  In this case, one of the hobbyists willingly admitted to paying for services which became supporting evidence to make the arrests.  The same thing occurred in San Gabriel Valley area of Los Angeles last month.  So, I'm convinced whatever LE's angle or motivation, it does occur.

But both Jack and GaGambler still have the best suggestions.  I suspect that if LE is watching a particular apartment and I walk out of that apartment one hour after going in, I have to assume that LE knows why I was there and I know they know.  So creating a back story probably makes my situation worse.  So good advice there.

Based on your suggestions I think it would be safe to give LE an obvious answer and say that "I was visiting someone" and then when they press harder I could respond with variants of both your suggestions such as, "sorry, I'd rather not get involved - I can't help you".  If they press further I could respond by saying "with all due respect, are you investigating me?  If so, I'd like to call my attorney".

It has been said many times here that this hobby is not without its risks and being prepared for this (albeit unlikely) conversation is just another form of prophylactic (you just never want to do BBLE).  I think it's important to get it clear in your head because if it happens you won't expect it and you must rely on your automatic pilot, otherwise you'll say something stupid under pressure and create problems for yourself and the provider.

Thanks guys.

Again, I never said it couldn’t happen.  I just questioned the circumstances of the entry.  There was no mention of a warrant in his statement.  He said he was stopped while he was driving away and the police had him wait around while they “moved in” on the next appointment.  That would indicate to me that the police already had a warrant when they stopped him if, in fact, they had a warrant.  Maybe there was enough time between appointments for them to get a warrant but he certainly didn’t indicate that in his statement.

You said, “The moron fessed up to having recieved a massage and a cbj thus giving LE probable cause to kick the door down on the next slob who had booked with her.”  He might have given them probable cause to get a warrant but there would have to be exigent circumstances in order to enter without a warrant, especially kicking the door open.  If they had reason to believe someone’s life was in peril, e.g. an assault, rape, murder etc. was in progress then that would be considered exigent circumstances and they could force entry without a warrant.  Even with a warrant the police cannot force entry unless there is reason to believe their safety could be compromised or drugs could be flushed etc. if they knocked and announced their presence. Absent those circumstances which would be spelled out in the warrant, the police have to abide by the knock and notice rule.

It is very possible this guy is telling the truth and it did happen.  It is also very possible he didn’t get the facts straight when he reduced his thoughts to writing, and therefore his version of what occurred left gaps in the story.  That is a situation that is not all that uncommon.  I never indicated anyone was outright lying.  I was only questioning certain things that generated questions.  There is nothing to prove or disprove here.  

His statements led to the warrant.Once they got the warrant they busted her on her next appointment "after" obtaining the warrant. Prior to his statements they had nothing but suspicions.

Are you intentionally being argumentative, or are you really that dense?

Somebody stated above:
"You could tell them you just paid a girl for sex and walk away."

That's totally un-true.
The law covers admissions, and if you admit to committing a crime, you can be arrested even IF LE did not see you commit the crime.

People confess to murder, rape, and other crimes all the time. Just because LE didn't see it happen doesn't mean that person can't be arrested and charged with that crime.

Not to frighten anybody, but I actually worked for a Police Agency for 5 years and have several friends who are officers. I also am going to have a Law Degree in about a year so I kind of know the ropes (at least in my state).

LE HAS to prove (either by your admissions or a sting) that you committed a crime.
They will try to discuss sex for money or sex for items/property/etc... in order to catch you (in a sting).

When they question you, they try to put tons of pressure on you to admit to a crime.
My best advice is to be polite to the police and if they ask for your name, give it to them (otherwise they can charge you with refusal to ID and arrest you).
Other than that, you should NEVER answer LE's questions. You have a right to refuse to answer questions.

They will tell you that by not answering their questions, it makes you seem suspicious, however, they can't arrest you just because they think you're suspicious. They can temporarily detain you, but they can't arrest you.

If they do arrest you with no PC (Probably Cause), just be polite, don't fight or resist, and still DO NOT TALK.

Call your attorney and he/she will help you figure out what to do next.

Oh, and if you don't resist arrest and are arrested un-lawfully, you'll have one heck of a good lawsuit against that LEO

1) As noted, do not lie - that's what nailed Martha stweart
2) They have a right to your name, and show ID if requested,
3) otherwise say nothing, you don't have to.  Be polite about it - just say "I have to get to another meeting,"  or "I'm sorry, but I'm just not going to say anything else without consulting my lawyer first" - unless you are under arrest, they have to let you go.  If this unusual circumstance occurs, they know what is going on, they just can't prove it with evidence admissible in court, they won't waste time with you, instead they'll wait for the next sap who may not be so savy.
Just be polite - it never pays to be rude to cops or get them angry (unless your Rodney King).

Prostitution is a misdemeanor, not a felony.  The police cannot make an arrest for a misdemeanor violation unless they witness the crime.  There are a few exceptions but they don’t apply here.  The crimes you cited in your statement, murder and rape, are serious felonies where the police can make an arrest on probable cause.  Probable cause means the police can make an arrest if they have reason to believe a felony has been committed whether a felony has or has not been committed.  However, a prosecutor can file a complaint on a misdemeanor and have the court issue an arrest warrant for the suspected violator. The court procedures would be the same whether you were arrested by the police or on a warrant issued by the court.

In the case of prostitution arrests one of the participants is almost always a cop so there is no question about witnessing the crime.  It would be the same situation if you went up to a cop on the street and told him you just exceed the posted speed limit by 40 MPH.  He would no doubt think you were a little nuts but he couldn’t write you a ticket unless he actually witnessed the violation.  Some traffic violations are infractions and some are misdemeanors.  Just because the police can’t arrest you for admitting to paying for sex, only an imbecile would make such a statement.  Under certain circumstances the police could complete an Application for Complaint which would include a narrative of what occurred and those who participated and forward the document to the concerned prosecutor who could file a Misdemeanor Complaint with the court. I wouldn’t talk to the police about anything much less make incriminating statements.  I have been interviewed, interrogated and deposed enough times to know to keep my mouth shut and if I do talk I make sure I have the facts straight.

The police can detain you without arresting you.  One situation of detaining and not arresting is if you are a witness to a crime.  The police can detain you long enough to get a statement.  

I realize most law school curriculums begin with torts the first year, and then move to civil procedures and criminal law is usually last.  Maybe you haven’t reached criminal law yet and that is why you are confused between misdemeanors and felonies. Good luck on your future practice.

aw, you guys make me hot with all this smart talk!

or a drunken idiot

-- Modified on 1/8/2008 10:04:58 PM

understand what I wrote. A person who is incapable of writing cannot be expected to have the ability to read.

I’ll try this one more time and if this doesn’t work I give up.

Everything I said and my opinions were based on oper888’s statement.  You might have another source of information, or you might be reading another statement by someone else, or you might be basing your opinion on assumption.  We’ll take this one step at a time.  

oper888 wrote:

“Scheduled appointment with well reviewed agency/well reviewed provider in Maryland, and DAMN wouldn't you know it as I'm driving away I get pulled over by the cops who have staked out the hotel building a case against SI and the girl in question. I was not arrested and was asked for my cooperation as they claimed that they were more interested in the agency than me. He asked me some questions, which I answered nearly admitting to massage and CBJ but not penetration and the fee paid. He then had me wait around and they moved in on the provider and her next appointment literally catching the poor bastard with his pants down. He had me park down from the room and then bought her out of the room and turned her around took her back in and then came back to me to ask for positive ID.”

There is no mention of a warrant in his statement.  oper888 stated “He then had me wait around and they moved in on the provider and her next appointment literally catching the poor bastard with his pants down. He had me park down from the room and then bought her out of the room and turned her around took her back in and then came back to me to ask for positive ID.”

The cops could have entered the room three ways.  They could have knocked on the door and asked whoever answered the door to let them in.

They could have forced their way if there were exigent circumstances. However, according to oper888’s statement there was no mention or indication of an emergency.

The third option would have been to get a warrant. However there is nothing in oper888’s statement to indicate they got a warrant.

If they did get a warrant, what was the warrant for?  Was it an arrest warrant and if so who was the arrest warrant for? Remember we are talking about a misdemeanor, not a felony.  The police have to witness a misdemeanor to make an arrest.  They cannot make an arrest for a misdemeanor based on probable cause like they can with a felony.

The only evidence of a possible misdemeanor is what oper888 told them.  One of the cops would have to write and sign a sworn affidavit articulating the reason for the arrest, who they are going to arrest and what their reason is to believe a crime has been committed.  The affidavit is submitted to a judge along with the warrant which the affiant also had to write for the judge’s approval.  Do you honestly think a judge would sign a misdemeanor arrest warrant based on what oper888 stated in his statement?  Even if a judge did sign a misdemeanor warrant based on the circumstances in oper888’s statement, the warrant would be thrown out at the arraignment and the charges would be dismissed.  

The crime is the offer of sex for money, or the offer of money for sex.  Witnessing two people having sex is not witnessing the crime.  This is not a felony where the police can make an arrest based on probable cause.  

In regards to a search warrant:  What would they be searching for?  The procedure for obtaining a search warrant is the same as an arrest warrant.  Would they state in the affidavit that they would be searching for the fruits of the crime?  What crime? They don’t even know if a crime has been committed

About the most logical and possible thing that could have happened was for the cops to knock on the door and ask whoever answered the door if they could come in and ask some questions. If the person who answered the door was stupid enough to let the cops in then they would be in the room legally and no warrant would be necessary. If they observed, in plain sight, evidence of prostitution, e.g. condoms, baby wipes, money on the table etc., then they could do what is called an application for complaint.  They would be required to verify everyone’s identification who was involved and who they wanted to have charged with the crime.  They would have to articulate the circumstances of the crime the same as they do in an arrest report and then forward the application for complaint to the prosecutor.  The prosecutor could then file the application for complaint in the misdemeanor arraignment court and if the court accepted the complaint the judge would issue arrest warrants for the suspects listed in the application for complaint. Once the arrest warrants were issued, the prosecutor would contact the suspects and tell them they had warrants for their arrest and tell them to surrender at a police station or county jail to be booked for the warrant.  From that point on the procedure would be the same as if they had been arrested for the crime by the police.  

So based on oper888’s statement, how did you conclude the cops obtained a warrant or warrants and arrested the people involved for prostitution?  

Did oper888 and the cops wait around while one of the cops prepared the affidavits and arrest warrants and then took the documents to a judge for his approval?  That is a very time consuming process.  That would mean they waited around the location for hours waiting for the warrants.

Please explain your reasoning for concluding the cops obtained arrest warrant(s) and arrested the people in the room for prostitution based on oper888's statement.

Speeding is an Infraction, not a misdemeanor.
So, if you're speeding and admit it to LE, then no, there's nothing they can do.

However, it IS true that if you admit to committing a Misdemeanor, you can be arrested.

Maybe your state is different, but I doubt it.

You can't just confess to a crime to LE and then not  get arrested/charged. It's a confession and people who get scared do it every day to cops. Whether it's a misdemeanor or a felony doesn't matter.

Speeding is not a crime. Speeding is a Violation.
You can't really put going 40 in a 30 area in the same category as Prostitution or Solicitation.

And my last year of law school is me basically taking my BAR exam and waiting to get the results back, so I've already been through Criminal Law.

It's never good to admit to LE that you've committed any illegal activity. Just keep your mouth shut because it's your right to do so.

Drunken idiot sounds more liely than LE. In any case he's way to stupid for me to argue with any more. About 75% of what he says is correct, but the fact that he's such an asshole about it, coupled with the fact that he is Sooo wrong on the other 25% makes it impossible to continue this discussion with him.

Peace out

Driving under the influence is a misdemeanor.  Do you think if you were to approach a cop and tell him you were driving under the influence a couple of days ago he could arrest you?  You say speeding is not a crime, it’s a violation.  A violation of the law is a crime by definition.  Look it up on Blacks Law Dictionary.  If a traffic violation carries a possible jail sentence then it is a misdemeanor. A penalty for an infraction can only be a fine, not jail time. An example would be reckless driving; driving under the influence and going 40 miles over the speed limit if you are driving 65 mph in a 25 mph zone could also be a misdemeanor.  

You can be charged with a misdemeanor by having the concerned prosecutorial agency, DA, file a complaint in the misdemeanor arraignment court.  If the court accepts the charge a warrant would be issued for the violator, defendant, listed in the complaint.  

Misdemeanor:  A crime that carries a sentence of up to one year in the county jail and/or up to a $3,000.00 fine.  A misdemeanor has to be witnessed by the police in order to make an arrest.  A misdemeanor charge can be filed by the concerned prosecutor without the defendant being arrested. A citizen can make a citizen’s arrest in the case of a misdemeanor if the citizen witnesses the crime.  An example would be store security witnessing a shoplifting.  A citizen cannot make an arrest for a misdemeanor if the citizen did not witness the crime.

Felony: A crime that carries a sentence of one year or more in the state prison, or a misdemeanor sentence in the county jail for less than one year if the court imposes an alternative sentence.  The limit of a fine on a felony is determined by the particular crime.  The police can make an arrest if they either witness the felony or they can make an arrest on probable cause.  Probable cause means the police can make an arrest if they have reason to believe a crime, felony, has been committed whether a crime has or has not been committed.  Only the police can make an arrest based on probable cause.  A citizen cannot make either a misdemeanor or a felony arrest based on probable cause.

If you approached a cop and told him you battered someone, a misdemeanor, the cop could either detain you and contact the victim to see if the victim would like you prosecuted, or complete a battery report and forward the report through channels to the court.  The court could issue a warrant for your arrest.  The victim could not make a citizen’s arrest at that time because a citizen’s arrest has to be made contemporaneously. And of course, the cop could not arrest you either.  If the victim reported the battery to the police after you committed the battery and you were named on the report as the suspect, the police would normally obtain a warrant for your arrest based on the report.  If there was a warrant for you arrest for the battery then the cop could arrest you on the warrant.

After your last response it is hard for me to believe you are in law school and have already studied criminal law.  The laws of arrest which include the difference between a misdemeanor and a felony are as basic to law as 2+2=4 is to math.  Stating your opinion is one thing but overstating your qualifications is another and only discounts your credibility. You should have at least researched when a person can be arrested for a misdemeanor before you made your second post. I don’t know everything, and I don’t claim to know everything but I make sure what I state is correct before I post on this board.  Making sure something is correct is going to a reliable source like publications, not repeating what you heard or read from an unreliable source.

In California, police can only arrest you for a misdemeanor if they catch you in the act.  This does not mean you can get away with a misdemeanor as long as the police don't see you.  It just means you can't be arrested for it.  You can still be prosecuted.  Admitting your conduct to the police is a good way to increase the odds that this will happen.

Many people seem to think that an arrest is a necessary step along the way to a conviction, but that's not true.  You can get a summons in the mail (or by other means of delivery) telling you to show up in court to face the charges, or the police can simply write up a citation, hand it to you and send you on your way.  In either scenario there has been no arrest but the prosecution can go forward.

Lots of misdemeanors by their very nature will take place where the police can't see.  It would be absurd to design a legal system which says those crimes could never be prosecuted.  The rule against arresting people for these crimes is only slightly less absurd.  My sense is that there is no comparable rule in most other states.

(It's almost like being back in law school.  The tuition here is a lot cheaper, though some of the "advice" is of questionable validity.)

1) If asked for your name, say it.  If asked for ID, show it.

2) If asked any other questions, respectfully tell LE it is your understanding that you do not need to answer further questions without being able to consult with your attorney.

you. You can only stop yourself from giving them cause to arrest you.  You have an obligation to give and verify your identity, and then you have a right to SHUT THE F#%K UP. I don't represent criminals anymore, but when I did, the back of my card read: SHUT UP DUMMY.

If a cop is going to arrest you, you will never, never, be able to talk yourself out of it. So, by the time the cop stops you, the decision has already been made whether or not to arrest you.  The only way you can change anything is to give the cop enough evidence from your own mouth to change his or her mind from not arresting you to arresting you.  In that case you will be automatically guilty of being stupid in a no-stupid zone.

Oh, one more thing:  SHUT UP

-- Modified on 1/11/2008 9:34:24 PM

Thanks for summing it up...only thing I would add is this:
    There is a difference between being detained and being in custody.  After saying your name and showing ID, don't be afraid to ask LE "Am I free to leave?".  This is the million dollar question, because if the answer is no, then you are "in custody" and Miranda is triggered and you are within your rights to say nothing more and ask to pull out the cell phone and call your attorney.  That should shut down the questioning and, most likely, they will let you leave.  
    This has been an interesting thread.  It's too bad that some of the advice has to be mixed in with people who take the responses too personally...

Thank you... Thank...You Thank You....

but here's is more proof. I know in your fairy tale world this kind of stuff can't happen, but...

I suppose your going to accuse me of making this up too.

I remember a long while back a buddy and I were drunk so we called two hookers from an agency.
The girls had drivers and  my neighbor a nice girl got worried about the man running the car outside her condo and called the cops.

Hell, we had been drinking and did not even think to ask the driver to park away from my condo.

A week later the dude that was the sercurity guard for our condo told me the city cops had responded to my neighbor's call  and laughed and when they saw the hot blonds said I do not blame  the guys for calling  those hot looking girls !
He said the cops joked with him ,admired the girls ,and cracked up saying nothing going on here and left.
That buddy later died of pancreatic cancer but man did we have some wild times.

I don't believe the agressive/combative nature of recent posts is helpful.  Even if information is 100% correct, appropriate and overwhelmingly useful, it will be discounted by readers if it is presented this way.  Ranting may be a therapeutic way to get something off one's chest but it loses credibility quickly.  No one listens to the crazy guy in front of the 7-11 pacing back and forth yelling at strangers - most of that is because of his presentation.

I am rather new to TER but it seems to me that the site exists to allow those with our similar interest to help each other out - give recommendations, point out the scams and generally function as a "coming-together place" (no pun intended) to share ideas.  Verbal assaults may be common on the web but they are rarely helpful...

just my $0.02