..can this advise be applied in a Custody Battle????
especially the part addressing admissible evidence. From what I'm reading, the defendent's job is to have the judge rule that information brought in by the prosecutor is not admissible base on a savy's attorney's knowledge of the law and/or his Social connections. If the information is admissible....you might as well plea guilty as the judge has just told you who he will rule for.
Any internet site that gives you the politics of judges and/or Magistrates??
DC...thank you
I have a question:
Was arrested in NY 3 weeks ago when the cops used a former hooker to get guys in a hotel room (they set up everything and were in the room next).
When I got into the room I didn't say anything incriminating while with the girl, I just paid and she asked me how I was doing. Absolutely nothing happened.
When they got me I didn't say a word other than my name and pleaded not guilty in court.
I went to court yesterday with my lawyer, pleaded not guilty and have a new court date in 4 weeks. The prosecutor told my lawyer the girl offered me sex in exchange for money and they will bring her in as witness.
What the hell?
I am really scared as it seems they probably manipulated the girl for her to lie. My lawyer says it might be difficult because then it's my word against hers. I am under the impression my lawyer is an incompetent. If I am found guilty it would mean the cops can arrest a guy without any evidence, fabricate a case bringing a witness who is lying.
What is my best defense if she indeed lies?
Is there a justice in this country?
This is crazy!
Did you by chance have a phone call prior to the meeting and/or exchange emails? Those will probably be entered as evidence as well. The calls were probably recorded.
Put yourself in the place of a judge or juror and ask yourself: If I was presented with this evidence, how would I (Regardless of how you feel about sex for pay being illegal.) vote?
Then offer to plead guilty, pay a fine and get on with your life.
If I may ask a question: Does this provider have reviews on here or elsewhere?
Are they still up and is she still advertising?
I bet the good folks on the NYC Board would appreciate knowing who this is so that they can avoid the trap you stepped into.
LE getting well reviewed providers to flip is starting to become a serious problem. This just occurred in Chicago recently.
The only way to keep a handle on it is for those who do get caught to spread the word quickly.
Also, why did you get an incompetent lawyer?
Keep us posted.
(still not a lawyer)
Yes there are emails and phone calls but absolutely nothing implying sex, simply that I wanted to meet the girl. Money doesn't imply anything sexual, I could be paying for a massage.
I don't understand. In order to prove guilt don't they need evidence that I was seeking sex in exchange for money? My question was: if all what they have is what the girl is saying is it sufficient?
By the way this girl has no review and doesn't advertise, I knew her cause she was in the business a few years ago, then quit. I had no idea she was working with the cops.
I agree with much of what mrfisher wrote, but not his suggestion that you "offer to plead guilty, pay a fine and get on with your life." If you plead guilty to solicitation, that will remain on your record for a long time. A NY lawyer may be able to tell you how long.
Your lawyer may be able to negotiate a deal in which you plead guilty to a lesser charge.
Mrfisher is right that your phone conversation and / or emails with the lady will be evidence against you. So will the ad that prompted you to call her in the first place. Even if she didn't make an offer while you were in the room, she may have made one before you got there. Regardless of when she made it, it can be used against you.
Your lawyer understands this even if you don't. Don't be too quick to question his abilities. He must know a lot more than you do about negotiating a deal that will spare you an embarassing record, and that's really what you need right now.
If she made an offer, it was to have sex in exchange for money. If he made an offer, it was to provide money in exchange for sex. Given that nyinquirer was lured to the room in a sting, it's more reasonable to believe that she made an offer than that he did. Stings would net far fewer men if they only went after the ones who actually made offers instead of having the lady make offers and nabbing the men who accept.
It is rather easy to change lawyers. You are legally allowed to retain anyone you want without notice to the attorney you are replacing. Your new attorney can handle the transition rather easily for you.
If your instincts cause you to feel that you need a better lawyer, do take time to ask around to see who is regarded as the 'best' criminal lawyer in your community. You will find a concensus rather quickly. Then put your hard earned money to good work with that lawyer. It's not a good idea to have the added stress of a poor lawyer handling something this important to you.
Also, remember that it is the Prosecutors duty to present a rock solid case. It is not a 'preponderance of evidence' which simply means more likely than not. In criminal cases like yours, the prosecutor has the ugly task of providing his case 'beyond a reasonable doubt.' Fortunately for you, reasonable doubt comes in all shapes and sizes and is very subjective. In your case, a good attorney will bring into question the credibility of the young lady who set you up. Afterall, it's the Prosecutor calling her a prostitute. If this case truly does hinge on her word against yours, your reasonable doubt is in questioning the credibility of THEIR prostitute. We are all familiar with how society feels about the credibility of a hooker.
Your attorney will collect discovery in order to see exactly what type of recorded evidence they have against you. Such as telephone calls or email correspondence. A good point by the previous poster...prior conversations and correspondence to the hotel room should be considered in your thought process. You didnt mention pre-hotel correspondence in your post. Therein may lie the evidence against you that the prosecutor mentioned.
And, if you havent already, get on your local board and post your story immediately.
been there done that,, Etta is right,, all you have to do is hire the new one & they will handle everything, no embaraasment for you on thta issue.
I had to change 3 times, the first slimball did not care 1 bit ( I had already paid in full), The second sent me a bill for an additional $2500 & offering to cut it into $1250. I disputed & had to pay zero additional, yet they already had been paid a $2500 & did nothing except lie to me.
#3 was great & was honest & even reduced his rate due to the prior rip offs.. He begged me to fly out & go to trial....but I was tired of fighting.... it was easier to just sign a paper & fed ex....but to this day I regret my decision & ...I should have gone to trial... because Now it cost me much much more..it never ends..anyway, I just want you to really think this out & do not give up to make it go away..it does not work that way...best of luck to you
I've never had to deal with something like this. But my experience with even traffic tickets has taught me to get a lawyer who specializes.
Practicing law is a busines. Ever sit in court and watch all the cases? Traffic court, eviction court, criminal court? Most of the time - it's like an assembly line. Lawyers have all the forms filled out and figured out. It all moves pretty quickly. Part of the "Business" means moving along quickly and efficiently. No one wants to slow things down.
Many of these same attorney's are in the courtroom daily or weekly. They have a "reputation" and a "relationship" with judges and other attorney's. A particular attorney might be "embarrased" to argue the finer points of a solicitation beef. He may not know the holes to look for or argue against.
An attorney who specializes in these kinds of cases will understand how best to protect you. I've spent some time researching attorneys to know who handles what. If it ever happens to me - I'm prepared.
....in the room....then your attorney has the argument that the woman is free to make up the conversation.
While you MIGHT have some chance of winning in court, there is the "where's there is smoke, there is fire" impression given by the totality of the circumstances.
And, going through a trial will not only cost you thousands of dollars, you might find your case being reported in the local media.
Lesson: visiting a lady in a hotel can be much riskier than in her home.
I can't imagine a competent defense attorney putting his client on the stand in this type of situation. The prosecutor would tear the defendant apart on cross examination. Can you imagine the questions the prosecutor could ask him? The defendant would convict himself by his own testimony.
The prostitute would be the only witness to the crime itself. I doubt the prosecution would call any of the officers to the stand because of the inevitable inconsistencies among their statements and the prostitute’s statement. A good defense attorney could poke a lot holes in her testimony on cross examination.
The defense attorney could subpoena two or more of the officers and put them on the stand after the state rests its case. He could also recall the prostitute to the stand when he puts on his defense. The officers and the prostitute would be excluded from the court room while each one of them testified so they couldn't hear the other's testimony.
Defense counsel could ask the officers very detailed questions regarding why they chose her to help them and how the sting was operated. Each officer would testify under oath that she was a prostitute, she had been arrested in the past and what if any deal was worked out for her help. Since the witnesses wouldn't be allowed to hear the other witnesses testify their stories might vary significantly.
He could call the prostitute to the stand after the officers testified. He could ask her a series of questions based on the officers testimony. If he is good at directing testimony he could raise all kinds of inconsistencies which he could use in his closing statement to the jury. He could use the inconsistencies among the officers and prostitutes testimonies to show the jury it was a botched operation. The prostitute was not a credible witness according to each officer’s testimony and she was the only person who witnessed the crime. There was no clear understanding at to what would have to occur in order for a violation to be committed. The police jumped the gun when they arrested the defendant when in fact a crime had not been committed. Therefore, the people have failed to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that a crime was committed.
This is all conjecture of course and there is no limit to the other possibilities that could occur. This scenario would be an expensive defense. I am not sure about New York but in Southern California it would run about $10,000.00 which would include preparing for trial. Working out a plea bargain without a trial would be about $5,000.00.
Thank you for the answers. Very useful indeed.
I understand now what kind of lawyer I need.
I think if the girl is telling the truth I should be OK because they have absolutely nothing against me, including pre meeting emails or phone calls. If the girl lies it seems the defense has many ways to show the lack of credibility of the witness (this girl has actually a heavy record and I have none) and inconsistencies in the Police story.
Looking at your "best defense" or the likelihood of obtaining an acquittal at trial is only one factor you need to consider.
First, make sure you have the charging document to review so you understand precisely what the charge is. Then review the statute yourself to confirm precisely what the penalty is that you face. If this is your first solicitation offense and you are not on probation, the typical penalty is usually a fine up to the specified amount and jail time not exceeding the specified period but you have to read the statute yourself to see how your state handles it.
If you have priors, you may be facing stiffer misdemeanor penalties or even felony charges.
Second, assuming that this is a first time offense, the next step is to consult an experienced criminal defense atty as to the type of sentences typically given for first time offenses.
Third, factor in how a conviction will affect your life independent from the actual sentence – i.e., disclosure on employment applications or sanctions by professional organizations.
Fourth, obtain an estimate from your atty as to the cost of a trial as opposed to a plea.
Five, now evaluate the likelihood that the state can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that you were guilty. Yes, all they need is her testimony –that is direct evidence of the crime. But, unless you take the stand, there is no way you can even provide a different story to the jury. Unless there is some evidence that you were there for a massage, the trial judge may not even allow your atty to argue this in closing.
Further, depending on the state law, the prosecutor may be able to question you as to prior similar acts –i.e., past liasions with escorts- either to impeach you if you say “I never hired an escort for sex in my life” – or as circumstantial evidence of intent or motive.
Until you have made the foregoing analysis, you cannot really make an intelligent decision as to whether to plead or defend.
-- Modified on 3/5/2009 6:56:36 AM
From someone who has been there, I would avoid getting this conviction, it never ends, it may cost 10 grand to clear your name....but it will cost more down the road ...as it never ends..it will be a life time of "stigma of this conviction"
IE: loaning her some money, hiring her to dance at a friends b-day party, taking provactive pictures,,,I can think of many reasons one would give money in envelope,, that have nothing to do with this accuastion
but I would not be so presumptuous as to make a broad statement as to what's best for you without knowing all the facts.
Obviously none of us here have "ALL" the facts, but from what you indicated the prosecution does not have a "slam dunk" case. If you don't feel comfortable with your current counsel, get a second opinion. Pleading guilty may be your best option, but not one that I would take likely. As Cathy so rightly points out, a conviction is forever. One other thing to consider is if you continue to hobby and are arrested again the consequences might be much more severe.
No one here, not even the "real" attorneys here can tell you what your best course of action is without access to the prosecution's case. You are entitled to see the evidence against you, and unlike the police the prosecutor is not allowed to lie to your attorney to extort a guilty plea from you. He may overstate his case, but he cannot outright lie about the evidence. Once you have all the facts your attorney can advise you on your best course of action.
Good Luck
I couldn't agree with you more. I've stayed out of this one because it is really going to the very essence of a specific strategic decision regarding a personal criminal case.
nyinquirer, READ MY LIPS, the only person who can help you with that decision is your attorney. As the estimable Gambler from Jimmy Carter's Home State said, that decision cannot be made without knowing EVERYTHING about
the prosecution's case;
the typical mindset of local juries;
the judge's history of admissibility of evidence rulings;
the propensity of the prosecutor to deal during trial;
and the general personality of the court.
If you do not trust your lawyer - GET A DIFFERENT LAWYER. Go to the courthouse. Observe. Spot the lawyer(s) (there is always one or five) that OWN the place. The court officers joke with them, the session's clerk actually helps them and smiles; the judge banters and interacts with them, and their cases fly through the process. Go on several days if you have to. It is that important. If your lawyer is one of those, then you should be OK. But if not, GET ANOTHER LAWYER.
Good luck
To carry your advice one step further. This is not going to be a case that is going to be on national TV. This is a relatively minor case that will be handled by some one pretty far down on the food chain. Regardless of your guilt or innocence there a dozen lawyers in your town that can make this case go away by calling in a favor. No one in the DA's office is going to remember three months from now that a simple solicitation case got dropped.
Your job is two fold. First find one of the lawyers that can call in that favor, and secondly convince the lawyer that "your" case is worth calling that favor in for. The stronger your case is, or conversely the weaker the states case is the less this should cost you. Just rembember life is a negotiation, get the best negotiator that you can afford.
I am not suggesting that you do anything illegal, this is just the way the system works. You want someone who is part of that system and can make the system work "for" you instead of against you.
Unless your case actually goes to trial your guilt or innocence is only a bargaining chip. I realize that your "innocence" is very important to you which is precisely the reason you don't negotiate for yourself, you let the professional negotiate for you.
Thanks for all the feedback. very useful.
My lawyer doesn't seem to care much if I am convicted or not. He says in the worst case scenario I will never go to jail, pay a minor fine and get unsupervised probation. Is it true?
The problem is I care and would get really mad if I am convicted while they have no evidence or fabricated evidence. I don't care much about the consequences, even I get a criminal record it's not a problem for me. It is just a matter of principle. If they had a case I would plead guilty, I'm not stupid. They have no case I expect to be found not guilty.
That's a DC. original, but feel free to use it because if you continue fighting a criminal case just based on principle, you are in for a very long, sad road.
Fairness has nothing to do with the criminal justice system. For you to exclude what you consider to be fabricated evidence, you will have to prove, under the jurisdiction's rules of evidence (or case law rulings on evidence) to a judge that (s)he must find the evidence inadmissible. The judge will not, in most cases, determine the validity of the evidence. (S)he will only determine if the rules keep it out or let it in.
This examination will typically boil down to credibility of testimony. This is where you will lose. Trust me, the odds of convincing a judge that the cops fabricated evidence are most decidedly against you. These judges that hear your type of case are dealing with thirty cases a day that are not considered life and death to anyone except each individual defendant. The judges see these same cops week in and week out, getting to know them just through interaction.
This is the context of your principled fight. Once the judge allows the evidence, the jury will hear it. They will believe the cop over you 9 times out of 10. When you lose at trial, the judge will already be mad at you for forcing it, and will give you a harsher penalty. If you appeal, you will never be able to argue the facts, but will be stuck trying to argue that the judge made a LEGAL mistake.
At the end, you will have spent up to $20,000.00 or more for something worse than if you just took a deal. This is probably what your lawyer has in his head while you are discussing the case with him, but he is probably just very bad in conveying it to you.
Good luck
..can this advise be applied in a Custody Battle????
especially the part addressing admissible evidence. From what I'm reading, the defendent's job is to have the judge rule that information brought in by the prosecutor is not admissible base on a savy's attorney's knowledge of the law and/or his Social connections. If the information is admissible....you might as well plea guilty as the judge has just told you who he will rule for.
Any internet site that gives you the politics of judges and/or Magistrates??
DC...thank you
Whatever transpired in the hotel room should have been recorded & the prosecution has to turn that recording over to your lawyer IF he asks for it. Tell the lawyer you want to listen ALL of the recordings in your case (that way, if he hasn't thought of that yet, he will when you tell him).
It really is time for a new attorney. All attorneys are not created equal. There is nothing to stop you from replacing your attorney at any time.
I once fired my attorney in open court. He had tried to plead me out against my wishes to a DUI charge. Everyone in the courtroom that particular day was against me, the soliciter, my attorney, the judge, everyone wanted me to take a plea. To make a long story short. I fired my attorney, got a continuance, hired the former Soliciter General of the County I was being charged in, and I am sure you can guess the end of this happy story. (I so love happy endings lol)
The two best pieces of advice you will ever get here are;
Get an attorney.
Get a good one.
I'm not a lawyer but in my interactions with the legal system, you are best served by a legal representitive who is a specialist in the type of case you have. They will know the judges & prosecutors and they will know him. He will know where there is wiggle room & where there is not.
If you were intercepted in the room with her, you can not expect to get off scott free. Aquittal? I doubt it.
Your attorney's job is to make sure LE did theirs. He'll get the recordings, statements & see how damaging they are. It's called discovery. Then he can properly advise you.
With a good atty & some luck you can get it pleaded down to something innocuous, that isn't a red flag.
skb
You are in a situation that is clearly difficult. The police has spent time and money setting up the sting that ensnared you. LE will want a "return" on their investment. They will want to push hard for a conviction to show that "return".
If there was every a time for you to retain first rate legal counsel, this is it. There is a big difference between competent -- good -- and great legal counsel. The difference is simply a matter of money, your money.
No case is impossible to win. Just remember John DeLorean bouncing the packet of coke on his lap in the police's film, or even O.J. Or for that matter, Phil Spector. By any objective analysis all were guilty as hell. Yet, DeLorean and O.J. walked and Spector is up for a re-trial.
A good attorney and the D.A. are both thinking the same thing -- how will this or that piece of the puzzle pay out in front of a jury. Each side's opinion of their case will drive the plea negotiations. And don't forget, the judicial system runs on plea bargains.
Who wins at a trial? At a trial a series of facts are introduced. Some will be disputed, some will not be. For example, in your case there will be no dispute that it was you that was in the room. Who wins, the one side which gives the best explanation (in the mind of the jury) for the "facts". If the best explanation (again, in the mind of the jury's) is your attorney's, then you skate.
I suggest that you sit down with your attorney and find out exactly what you have paid for. Did you buy his representation just for a plea deal? Did he agree to take you through a trial? What exactly is his trial experience? You will need to be able to document whatever he says. Is he a litigator -- one who actually tries cases -- or is he someone who generally cuts a deal and settles? You really need to know. And....you need to know what you want and what you are prepared to pay for.
My experience with my wayward son is that a good litigator who has a track record of wining his cases at trial goes for around $50,000. You may be able to find someone in today's economy for less. I am talking about a 1st class guy who wins. In may case I paid the $50,000 and he completely destroyed the prosecution's case at the preliminary hearing. By the way, my son was guilty as hell.
To go back to the beginning, your case appears to have a lot of LE investment in it. That is not good. However, if LE tried all their cases the legal system would grind to a halt. Is LE looking for an example? That would be the worst case. You attorney needs to find that out.
If you have the money and a clean legal record is important to you, then now is the time to spend it. Just make sure you are getting good value for it.
And, good luck!!
The deal with my attorney is $ 4,000 for everything including trial if it goes to trial. It is true LE wants a return on investment because they spent lots of time and money but they already convicted 5 other guys (cause they all made a statement). My attorney is saying in the worse case scenario I get a small fine, definitely no jail time. So I don't really care if I am convicted or not, the criminal record is not a problem for me because of my job. What would make me mad would be to be convicted when LE has no evidence or fabricated evidence.
Hmmmm, I don't know anything about typical attorney fees in your area. But in GA, that fee for a solid criminal defense would be incredibly cheap. I hope the "deal" you mention is not a sign of your attorney simply filling out necessary court docs, reviewing material from disclosure, and basically appearing on the appointed date/time. Your attorney should review the defense strategy he intends to pursue and even the logic for his/her approach. In GA, such interaction with your attorney is required under the State code of ethics. I would suggest that you have that sort of discussion if you haven't already so that you feel comfortable that a vigorous defense is planned.