DISCLAIMER: I may very well become hated very quickly on TER for the context of this thread and I'm okay with that.  God knows I'm known for stirring the cauldron anyways. One doesn't have to agree with my opinion to respect it.   I'm not one to lie down and keep quiet about something that isn't right because I'm a newbie in fear that being upfront and honest will ruin me.  If being honest ruins me then so be it.  Anything worth having is never easy, and nothing is worth doing unless you do it the right way.  For if you do it the wrong way it is destined to fail and end in disaster.  I may be naive to the ways of advertising on the net, due to being new here, true.  I am not new to the biz. I have been doing this independently for several years, and over the course of time have built a small regular client base which are safe, kind, and fun.  Each of which I regard as a friend. one of which has been with me for four years!!!!

with all that being said, let me get this straight.... a new provider shows up on the internet scene who has no reviews.  Those of you who have written reviews before since you have so many provider references and stature and are well known on TER won't see her until she receives some reviews.  Yet if someone who's never written a review submits one on a new provider that's positive even if it's true it gets accused of being false. Meanwhile certain hobbyists who are long standing members say to her in private messages such things as, "I would never see an unreviewed provider at those rates... blah, blah, blah."  with the intentions behind those statements being of manipulating, talking her down in her price, and haggling about her rates to get a special discount of some sort because of who they are.  Since you believe you have so much clout on TER because you are a "well known reviewer". Then complain about her 2 hour min. and try to convince her to do certain things differently than what she is comfortable with and do things which are medically proven to put her health at risk, that I choose not to do in exchange for a review that will make or break her????

It ISN'T cool for a hobbyist to play the manipulation game of "well if I wrote a review about you the phone would start ringing off the hook." when one knows I've had a slow start, not a bad one for being new and unreviewed I must admit, but never the less slow.  That is dangling a carrot in front of a rabbit and  the abuse of your TER stature.  and what some would call a power play. I maybe blonde but I'm not dumb.  Just because hobbyists are able to write reviews and are well known doesn't mean you have the right to haggle or manipulate any provider about her rates and coerce her into doing activities in which she is not comfortable with for a good review.  That would be a misrepresentation and deceitful.  Both of which I simply refuse to do.  News Flash!!!! I have something called integrity, class and ethics and simply refuse to sell out just to get "a good review" written about me.  I know I provide a good service and so do my clients.  All of which have never posted a review and decided not to post one because it could do more damage than good because they're unknown on TER.  

Quite a difficult obstacle for a newbie to overcome on TER this catch 22.  I understand I'm the new kid on the block and have to pay my dues.  I have no problem with that.   Although without being given a shot, unless I discount one of the well known hobbyist it seems like I don't have a chance.  It seems like all I can do is hope in time my reputation, service, personality and abilities will speak for themselves. Until then I would rather remain unreviewed than sell myself short for a review.  I'm not sorry that I simply will not lower my standards.  There's 31 flavors for a reason.  If you don't like my rates or think I'm too expensive why do you insist on contacting me and attempting to haggle with me over the donation when there are plenty of other providers to choose from??? If I'm not the right girl for you, I would rather a hobbyist go to another provider than see me.  Because if the encounter goes badly it is a waste of time and money for both parties.  On the other hand if it goes fantastic the financial aspect of it quickly becomes irrelavant.  Hence why I will not mislead or lie to anyone to get a date.  That's not good biz, I have my own style and way of doing things that I AM comfortable with... I'm not interested in quantity i'm interested in quality, and catering specifically to my guys individually.  That is why they continue to see me, because I do care and take the time to find out what they like best instead of just seeing dollar signs when I look at them.  and they appreciate these personal touches and the fact that I'm selective and a low volume provider.

That is a shitty tactic that some guys pull and you are to be commended for not giving into it, even though it probably works for some girls. Thanks for not playing that game, it compromises the credibility of the process.

I've heard this story too much.  Shit, I've seen IM messages from guys on this board trying to get discounts for a good review.  It is a crappy situation, but I commend you for sticking to your guns.  In the long run i'm sure you will be fine, just keep that hobbyists name in your personal blacklist and move on.

Lora,

Awesome post.  You summed up my sentiments about this hobby to a T.  Hard to find providers with integrity that will stand her ground while still being a lady at the same time!  

Best of luck to you !

Lora, you are absolutely right and you are already making yourself a name with respect here on TER.

I am pretty sure I am in love.

Oh and the overnight was on the phone...sorry they probably won't let me review fatastic conversation, wit, intelligence and integrity...wish I could because you would be a 10/10/10/10 on those fronts.

You are a class act Miss Maze, and I for one am impressed about everything about you, and don't worry about the guys that might hate you for your post, because they aren't the ones you want or deserve to see anyway.  The ones that will read your words an applaud your decency will outnumber those that react negatively because, perhaps, your words cut too close to the bone for them.

Welcome, and I do hope you post more, and are here for a long time....you add something wonderful to this community, and I'll take all I can get.

EDITED: for the typos that TER inserts in my post to make it look like I can't spell or type

-- Modified on 5/13/2006 12:27:09 AM

You should stick to your integrity and ethics . There is no reason you should discount for a review or do something you don't want to do . I never did that. Never had to . Yes I already came with a good reputation from the brothels and it still took me quite some time to build my reputation in this community . So be patient, hang in there.
Business doesn’t come just from having TER reviews.

I took a look at your add . You are gorgeous but your rates are a bit on the high side but not because you are new . Because the average 2 hour rate in Vegas  is $700 . Yes there are some ladies who charge more per two hours as there are ladies who charge less .
I am not trying to tell you what you should charge . You need to charge what you feel is right for you. But at a higher rate you may be pricing yourself out of many guys budget.

Hope this helps, good luck
Xoxo CindySpice

Thank you webbie and everyone on TER who weren't afraid to stand behind the words that I wrote.  It is appreciated more than words can explain.

Webbie, After speaking with you last night for what seemed like only an hour when in reality it was SEVERAL hours till well after the sun rose i have decided that I love you too!!!

warmest regards,

Lora Maze

x

Lora, why don't you ask your regular clients to write reviews for you?

I don't feel I should have to ask my guys to write a review if they don't want to. that's their choice not mine.

Well Done Lora! I P.M you pertaining to your post.
I have had similar expericences......

the people this is directed at are not going to change their behavior.

Your wasting your time.

It would be interesting to know which TER members are using the strongarm tactics you describe though.

Curious. Why don't you just hit the delete button or hang up the phone and forget about them ?

If your legit the reviews will come. If you feel you are worth your rate then why worry what someone else thinks about it ? When you complain they feel as if they've gotten to you.

My 2 cents

http://www.theeroticreview.com/discussion_boards/viewmsg.asp?MessageID=181287&boardID=12&page=1

-- Modified on 7/20/2006 3:58:09 AM

These situations definately leave us in a position to either make ot break those around us, and unfortunately leaves plenty of opportunity to abuse ones power over another. Just remember how youre feeling right now, because I can almost garentee youll be on the oposite end of the spectrum soon. Those that tried to manipulate you will basically have no accountability over the way they treated you. Its up to you to decide what kind of person youd like to become, as this definately will allow for just about anything you wish if you play your cards right. You obviously know how. Im willing to do whatever it takes to help you along the way: references, opinions, and whatever else you might need. All the best to you!

that will appeal to the brain dead - your target market.

take care , CE

Stick to your guns.  Don't drop your rates, but consider a slight increase.

exactly why it is, to your mind, a ridiculous marketing ploy?

Why it will appeal to the "brain dead"?

Is it that you don't believe the things she mentions happen?

You have never heard of a guy saying that he can "make or break" a lady's business with a review because he is such a well respected reviewer?

You have never heard of guys extorting activities in exchange for reviews because they tell a lady, "who do you think the other men will believe; you an unknown or me a trusted reviewer?"

You have never seen a post on a board where a guy links to a review of first time reviewer's review of an unknown lady and state how it must be fake?

To dismiss all that she wrote as a ploy for the brain dead carries a connotation that you maybe do not believe what she wrote about happens.  So are you saying it doesn't happen?  Are you denying the games that get played by those that misuse and pervert the review process for their own self-serving means?

If that is your stance, I am not sure whether to be glad for you that in your experience those things don't happen, or be sorry for you that you are so easily confounded and misled as to not be able to see that such things do happen...or perhaps, I should be suspicious of your motives in attempting to repudiate that these things do happen.

Perhaps you do know that all these things do happen, and the reason you want to turn it from the issue brought up, and judge the messanger instead of the message, is thast those very things may be, to you, positives.

Your alias implies you are an escort, but we all know you don't have to be what you state in a username (case in point I'm not really all that terrifying...well unless looks count)...

So maybe you want to distract from the issues and call it instead a ploy, because you are one of the lady's that likes the review in exchange for discounts game?  maybe you like the game of "do for me things you don't do, and I'll boost your review scores"?  Maybe you want the status quo to be maintained because if things ever changed, your reveiews might not be so glowing, so by all means attempt to discredit anyone that might not like those practices?

Maybe you are one of the guys that play the games?  Maybe you don't want people to make any mention against the coerrcion by reveiw because that might keep ladies from going for your "deal"?  Maybe bringing the issue into the open instead of having it just be mentioned in back channel will limit your power to say it's how things are done, or make ladies realise they can say "no" to such tactics?

I guess there is always the possibility that you are a lady that sees this as a ploy because your own posts are just ploys, so you judge others by your motives and behaviors.  It is a fact of life that we judge others by what we are, theives think everyone is trying to rip them off, liars believe no one tells the truth...maybe ploy posters read others posts as ploys?

Or is it that you don't beleive someone can actually have integrity and convictions and that by having the strength of character to stand up for what they know to be right, and stand against what they know is wrong, others can and will respect that?  

So, as I first said in this reply....please do tell why you state with such certainty that this is a marketing ploy for the brain dead?

I see little purpose behind complaining about the market conditions. They are what they are and I fail to see the utility in complaining about it. I have a personal policy of never initiating a negotiation with a provider. She has the right to charge what she charges. On the other hand. I have the right to avail myself of her services or pass. The review process helps me make that decision.

I read your post a couple of times and looked at your ad. Here is what I took away from it.

1) No website - translation, you didn't think it was worth investing the time and effort in your own business.
2) Only two photos that show too little information to be able to make an informed decision. You can still post photos that hide your face while  still providing info. - translation, you're unwilling to take on the business risks or make enough of an effort to market yourself.
3) Your rate is out of step with the industry. That's a business decision you made and have control over. Why complain about the hobbyist exorcizing their right to pass?
4) You ask for tips. That’s fine, but the custom surrounding tips is that it is usually not customary to tip the proprietor of an establishment. So consequently most hobbyists reserve tips for agency ladies.
5) Individually none of these points are disqualifiers. However, collectively they spell out a lack of commitment to the business but a desire to be excluded from the market rules. What might one conclude how committed the session would be?

So here is the final take-away from the post. From your post you give one the feeling that you are entitled to charge 3X the customary rate that a new girl would charge for a single session. You force the hobbyist to commit to two hours. You make the statement you are willing to pay your dues yet your actions speak contrary to that. Dues are paid via hard work. You’ve decided to set the bar very high – which is your right – but then complain about the consequences of your decision. I don’t get it.

So given no track record and not having enough visual data to go off of, do I select provider ‘A’ with a high minimum and no reference point for performance? Or do I book three one hour sessions with providers ‘B’,’C’ and ‘D’ with verifiable track records? One doesn’t have to go far to complete that math. So you can see how this would lead me to decide on passing.

Trustno20,
I'm pretty sure that in Loras' post she said exactly what you said. What she is talking about is someone asking/demanding for a discount or a service she does not provide, in exchange for a review. That, IMHO, is very uncool.

She doesn't seem to be saying that we need to form a line to see her; rather she's upset that someone would try to argue down her rate in exchange for some "high-profile review".

I agree, her portfolio of info doesn't trigger me to line up first and see if it's real.  A better marketing plan may be to offer lower intro rates, build a base and then price accordingly.  Alas, she never asked my opinion on that, nor does Nordstroms for that matter.  With both, I can decide to shop there, or elsewhere.  I believe she's aware of that, and took it into account when setting her rates.

I do know of 2 people that have given her kudos, neither from a horizontally based experience, to my knowledge.  That goes a long way with me.  She's on my wait & see list.

so different.  Like the others have said, she is not complaining about lack of business.  She is complaining about a "well known hobbyist" attempting to make her do things she doesn't want to.  You make good points toward her ad, but she is new to the Internet scene. So she starts with an eros ad.

I hate hearing about this type of treatment.  Some guys think they can manipulate who they think is a new naive girl into doing things she may be uncomfortable with.

Bottom line to me, if you don't like what you see, move on.  Don't try to use what power you think you have to change them.

My principal contention is not with the argument that trying to leverage one's TER status for discounts is inscrupulous. That goes without saying but I guess I should state it for the record.

My main contention was the other three paragraphs that complain about the conditions of the hobby. I still maintain that their is much a lady can do to positively impact her business and most of them cost little to no money. The website as an example and more informative photos are simply two such examples.

What does rub me the wrong way is when a lady feels she is entitled to having her cake and eating it too. Hey we all have jobs and all of our jobs have things about them we don't like. For me, it's filling out expense reports. But in life it always comes down to three choices. a) Change the conditions you work under. b) If you can't change it then accept it. c) If either a or b are not acceptable, then simply leave the job.

Miss Maze is very new to advertising on the internet.  So yes, so far she only has an Eros ad (an ad which cost around $300 by the way...I would not call that not investing in her advertising)while she designs her own website (yeah the truth comes out about my time on the phone with her...we talked about web design, layout and scripts -you guys knew it had to be something like that anyway), so she is certainly investing time and effort into her business.

so to your points one by one:

1.) She actually is investing time and effort into her business by designing her own site, sorry she didn't rush it so that it would be up the day she joined TER...in the future perhaps she will do things half-assed to please those that would rather judge than simply ask.

2.) She does only have two pictures up on her Eros ad, but has already rotated them once (so has posted 4 pictures) in an effort to give prospective clients a better idea of her appearance...again easier to accuse than ask I assume.

3.) Her rates are her own, they are not out of the market, just perhaps out of the mainstream or out of your market, but that does not make them wrong.  

At no point did she complain about anyone choosing to pass on seeing her because of her rates, as a matter of fact she said the exact opposite
QUOTE: "f you don't like my rates or think I'm too expensive why do you insist on contacting me and attempting to haggle with me over the donation when there are plenty of other providers to choose from??? If I'm not the right girl for you, I would rather a hobbyist go to another provider than see me."

I guess again accusations based on misreading and miscomprehension is easier than taking the time to  understand what someone actually said.

4.)She asks for tips?  One of us is really bad at the reading thing since her ad specifically states,
QUOTE: "Although tipping is always appreciated after, it is not expected. That is entirely your decision."

5.) Now as where each of your points are wrong doesn't disqualify, collectively they do spell out a certain inability to refrain from judging when ignorant of facts, and a lack of commitment to understanding what is instead of what you decide must be.  What must one conclude you would bring to a session in light of that?

Her complaints were simply hobbyists haggling with or attempting to coerce ladies that are new to TER by misapplying their status, and that by the fact it takes a hobbyist with a number of reviews to make one before other will see a lady, that allows the unscruplulous to pervert the process and undermine the value of reviews.

As for what "rubs you the wrong way", is it when a lady specifically says she won't trade discounts or her standards for reviews, or when she charges more than you think she should. *smirk*

I don't know why you would make the suggestions you do...since she is attempting to change what she doesn't like (ie the review bartering) that you actually try and twist it to her being wrong, and why you then say  she should accept it or get out of the business.

fact that you missed the point.

Wow - now your an accuser - LOL...

Well, I'm not getting involved in this one - but...

Webbie seems to have taken it personally -

What the difference -

Observation - An inference or a judgment that is acquired from or based on observing.

Accusation - a formal charge of wrongdoing, delinquency, or fault.

There is a fine line between these and can be mixed in use. But, I'll not be the one arguing the semantics - The meaning or the interpretation of a word, sentence, or other language form: We're basically agreed; let's not quibble over semantics.

OK, let me back my way out of the room - with a smile on my face.

Webbie ALWAYS takes it personally.  That's what those of us that know her love about her.  She's got the back of a friend, and looking out for what's right.  You can always choose to disagree with her.  I have once or twice, but be certain that you understand...she'd cover your back with just as much effort.  That's just Webbie.

While WebTerrorist is entirely correct that Lora's ad does say "Although tipping is always appreciated after, it is not expected.", it is also followed up with this choice bit of verbage: "That is entirely your decision.  After all T.I.P.S. stands for (T)o (I)nsure (P)roper (S)ervice."

In my book, paying the agreed-upon rate for a person whose services you retain is what "insures proper service".  Tipping is reserved for people who are either working in a service industry where it's assumed as part of their compensation (like barbers or cocktail waitresses), or who really go above the call of what the job asks (for which I'd generally give something more tailored to the recipient than cash).

Whenever I see someone use that kind of wording, it strongly implies to me that they expect something above the cited rate, and that if I don't meet their expectations, I can expect *poor* service.  If it's a server, they might hork a loogie on my food; if it's a parking attendant, my car might come back in bad shape.

I do agree with Lora's basic point -- offering to write a good review in exchange for a discount is offensive.  If you don't like the provider's attitude, or her rates, or even her choice in shoes, then don't call her and try to weasel her down.  It's not unheard of for providers to offer various discounts, and it's OK to inquire if there are any possible discounts (unless she's already indicated otherwise), but if she says "No", then *that's the end of the discussion on that subject*.

Spending time with a guy after he tries to chissle my rates down is such a turn off I'd rather not see him, but that is just me.
Lee Chase

-- Modified on 5/15/2006 6:16:53 PM

everyone's entitled to their own opinion.

Thank you acidom and all the rest of you who set the story straight for me, because I may not have been so nice.

And acidom, I'll take that as a compliment the fact that I'm on you're wait and see list now.  Thank you.

warmest regards,

Lora Maze

Dearest Webbie,

You are by far the best of friend a person could ever have, and appreciate the fact that you're willing to stand up and speak when others of us cannot.  Thank you for being you webbie.  You never cease to amaze me!!!

Warmest Regards,

Lora Maze

The only person who has the power to make or break you is yourself. It is true that being reviewed by a well respected and prominent hobbyist could give you a jump start in either direction, but ultimately the control is yours and success or failure will be due to your efforts alone.
The hobbyists who are misusing their TER stature to prey on and manipulate new comers should be advised that, as with lora, not all newbies will be awestruck by your self important, out of control egos.
Inevitably, one or more of these unenamored ladies will follow Lora's suit and perhaps take it a step further by actually naming you.

Good for you. I'm glad you posted this. You are a beautiful woman and in time, you will have pages of reviews. This post shows alot and will be noted in several guy's minds. I bet they will now give you that chance, even without the reviews. Like me for instance. I'm coming to Vegas very soon.

Trust me, bartering happens a lot in every city, and it isn't just because of a newcomer to the scene. Some of us are more turned off by it than others, though. Just stick to what YOU believe in!!
Lee Chase
http://www.theeroticreview.com/discussion_boards/viewmsg.asp?BoardID=2&SortBy=DateCreated%20desc&SearchType=1&Author=ExclusiveLee&DayFrom=180&DayTo=100&MessageID=69574&frmSearch=1

-- Modified on 5/15/2006 8:52:37 PM

I whole heartedly agree with Nikki's comment. Those who try and barter reviews for services are misusing their stature as an attempt to show power (or appearance of power).  Although I am by no means a CEO, I prefer the company of beautiful women who KNOW their own self worth. As long as the provider is not a ROB, they can charge whatever they want, and we as hobbyist either decide to pay the piper or not. Why complain, because you do not have the financial means to see a particular woman.  I shop at Nordstrom's because I HATE the service at Macy's, although I do enjoy the semi-annual sales.  Can't afford a Ferrari, then stick with the Hondas.  At least you can still drive =)  Just my .02

And to Lora, bravo for the post. Stick to your guns, and hopefully a true TER member will provide you with a honest review you have earned.  Know your self and know your own self-worth. As long as you do that, who cares what others think.

Do you honestly think that I believe for one second that I'm the only one who has experienced this???  I'm sure not the first and won't be the last.  I could have cared less about the marketing value of this thread.  What I was more concerned with was deterring this type of behavior and informing other ladies they didn't have to put up with it.  Not to mention possibly unifying the ladies instead of us all having our claws out against each other.

Usually when a server, cocktail waitress, bar tender or other service industry person receives a tip it is given after services are rendered not prior to.  So the provider of services has no idea if gratuity will be offered or not.

That's only true for the first time you interact with a service-industry worker.  If you've ever been a person for whom tips are a major part of your income, the faces of people who stiffed you are burned into your brain for what seems to be an eternity.  If you ever stiff a server who has an overdeveloped sense of entitlement regarding tips, you'd best get your butt on along, and don't ever hope to deal with that establishment ever again.

Tipping is essential if you're ever expecting to interact with that person again, because they will indeed hold a grudge over what they felt was their due.  Oddly enough (in my experience, at least), folks who expect repeat customers in their businesses tend to structure their rates so that tipping isn't expected; in fact, it's often considered rude to tip the proprietor of an establishment.

Well said and, frankly, if anyone bases their stature or another's on TER they are in serious need of meds.  Sounds like you have earned your own stature the only way that is truly real, with doing business with each person on an even playing field and letting them decide if it was a value or not.  And each one of us reading the reviews out there realize that we could as easily be reading someone's Alice in Wonderland tale as we could be reading fact.  It boils down to our own one-on-one experience.

Anyway, before I get on this rant further, let me close with a cheers to you and very well said, before I disappear into oblivion again.  (cuz the beauty of the internet is that ya can).  Best wishes to you.

*POOF*