most of us are average Joe, of course there are VIPs in every city. Some POs play fair to every clients, some don't.  VIPs get privilege to book early, receive photos/info prior to posting online, or even PO  to bump Joe's appointment to fit int VIP's ....
So, how average joe to beat VIP in booking with girls?

check out k-org's sites frequently  
book as early as you can
online or offline network for other inside info
do you own research,  
maintain good relationship with POs

any other suggestion?

You (and by you I don't mean the op who is far more of a vip than an "average Joe") aren't "beating out" a VIP.

 
At many orgs, girls start working early for Vips, prior to her actual start date. So if you aren't a VIP, you aren't beating them to the punch because to you they start later.

 
"check out k-org's sites frequently  
book as early as you can"  

 
Is irrelevant because girls start working earlier than listed for the "select few friends and family"

 
Yeah you aren't beating them out. The only way to do so is to also become a vip. But being a vip often means doing errands and posting an early glowing review regardless of girl quality to help girl make money. Ie shilling. The real reviews from average Joe's start rolling in a few days later.

Are there specific individuals who always get what some people call VIP in all circumstances? I’m sure there are. But, if they actually exist, they are rare.

 
The rest of us will sometimes bump another monger. But almost always we/they will only find out after the fact.  

There was a time when there were more than a few wealthy and quite generous customers who got special considerations and got just about any appointment they requested. But most of those guys have gone underground. Especially here in the Bay Area. The guys I used to know, and know of, who were treated like that thought nothing of dropping 4 figure tips for their favorite girl(s). But, in my experience, guys like that get bored and move on to something else to throw money at.

 
Booking early? Regular customers get this all the time. But, for reasons (which honestly usually feel like whims rather than logical reasons) that few ever really know, some people won’t and might not ever.  

 
Are there insiders who may get some or even all of the things you mention? Yes. But ask anyone who has ever gotten to know any of these guys. Only very few poor pathetic souls actually want to be an insider. In my opinion. I’ve never really seen it turn out terribly well for any of them.

 
Why? Because there is no BBB for K-orgs and almost certainly never will be.  

 
I know there are some who make their reputations on monger boards bemoaning the disparity between themselves and these mythical VIP customers. And they get a lot of the attention they desperately desire by making a big deal out of that disparity and its terrible injustice.  

 
Still, I have to admit it’s fun to read the tales of these mythical VIPs and the envy that some harbor towards them. And I’m sure you’ll see responses from them here eventually.  

 
There are certainly methods to increase your odds of getting treated well by a K-orgs and kgirls. You mention some of them in your post. The list of things you can do has been published many times. Though many of them have been buried in threads overrun with those who are compelled to do so.

 
Still, interesting question. Enjoy the firestorm of responses!

I'll just say for then nth time that I never was envious or wanting to be treated like these vips or "insiders".

 
About the only times I think vipers pose a real problems to mongers is  

 
1)if orgs bump appointments  for them. Then yeah, it's a big problem. Because then you employ the "all animals are equal but some are more equal than others" principle Orwell described pretty well.  

 
But anyway, why would someone be envious of someone who has to put up glowing reviews before the gen pop even sees the girl? Why would we care about being errand boys for the girls in their everyday lives?

 
2) Now, the issue here is vip/insiders will never communicate average or below average sessions and thus will mislead the average Joe's. This is an actually much bigger and important problem. Not only there's conflict of interest, but these people basically are making sure kgirls are getting business, via often exaggerated and glowing reports in public. They may or may not provide more granular details in private to their buddies but they'll surely make the girl sound like an attractive option no matter their experience with the girl. The goal if insiders, thus, is to sample before anyone else does and put out a review very early that will convince Joe's to buy in. Even if product is garbage.  

 
I think people who do that, stand against everything that mongering brotherhood entails. And thus I really hope they will stop having intellectual and physical capacity to mislead Joe's and prop up bad product.

and is rather common in a lot of other business models -- say car rentals (which actually are nothing like personal services such as we get with providers). Hell, most car rental companies have more perks for their VIPs than agencies do.

 
Stop with all the envy. Best customers -- meaning those that produce the largest income streams for a business will always get some preferential treatments. If they get advance info or off-hour sessions that harms me in NO WAY whatsoever.

 
If I get bumped (and I've only have like 1 appointment rescheduled in more than 10 years) who cares why? It doesn't matter why as I don't get to have the session. I prefer to accept (given the rarity of the event) the explanation offered in good faith as a truthful statement -- much like I would if I had plans with friends and then they called to reschedule, or had the same occur for a business meeting (and I've had many more reschedules in both those setting than I've had in P4P).

 
I think the best approach is to give the other good faith acceptance and your honesty in dealing with them (which is not to say just give them your wallet or something like that). If they prove unworthy of that treatment then it's not too hard to just move on to someone else that is more deserving of your money. It's not like any of the things people claim are due to some VIP status actually costs Joe any money. It's something of a trust but verify type approach to the business relationship.

... might ultimately work against you in the long run. It can put you into an even worse position of you try to outdo others. You wanna be a VIP? Dump a shit ton of money on the girls. Short of that, take a number and graciously wait your turn like everybody else.

"If I get bumped (and I've only have like 1 appointment rescheduled in more than 10 years) who cares why? It doesn't matter why as I don't get to have the session"

 
I care why. Knowing the real reason is always a good thing, but seems like you fully embrace "ignorance is bliss" mantra and just accept what you're told.

 
 A certain bay area org has a lot of complaints about being bumped. Happens a lot with newer girls. It's extremely common. It got to the point some people gave up trying to book anyone who's remotely new. Because always thered be some vip who decides he wants to see this girl again and then the whole schedule is cleared out for them.

 
Good faith is non-applicable to entities that perpetually lie about appearances, encourage fake positive reviews and generally are concerned with making more money off customers as opposed to making customers happy and then making money.

 
I was canceled two times in a ROW last minute (ie, when I texted them that I'm parked) by the same girl/org this year. Both times different reasons were given and one of them was bs because they switched their stance as I probed them further. They tried to peddle me off to other girls at the same location and then when I insisted on seeing the same girl later, claimed that location is unavilable even tho they just offered me to see another girl at the same location.

 
Now why would I trust them with anything they say?

 
Bumping off is pathetic and insulting to your fellow mongers.
Making the girl sound better than she was as a first review in order to drum up biz for the org and make the org bras happy, is even worse. In the bumping off there's a chance you're doing it unknowingly. Deliberately misleading fellow mongers kinda stops a vip person from being a fellow monger and makes him a misleading doormat for orgs/girls to use in order to prop up their biz and sell their product.

-- Modified on 2/6/2023 7:40:27 PM

Lopaw, the person you're replying to is one of the biggest "vip"s in the NoVa kgirl scene there is.

 
Though I heard he might have sacrificed some of his good standing when he pried a girl away from them.

 
But to my point, the op is probably a bigger vip than everyone else in this thread combined. In terms of connections, shilling for kgirls to drum them biz, etc.

It's actually easy to spot them too. They tend to put kgirl biz above the monger brotherhood and publicly sharing real, honest info. That's when they are easily discerned.

Real "VIPs" know what they have and quietly go about their business. I don't care where you think your station in life is. If you are so small and petty that you envy others and are blinded by how to beat them, you will ultimately fail. I'm not saying the OP is there yet, but you have to be careful and not let your emotions run away with you. Jealousy can ruin what should otherwise be a fun hobby.

To the extent he is that VIP you claim he is also the most monger friendly and helpful person on this board.

The poor grammar and English in the original post can be construed as either someone upset about being out fished by whales or someone that is sort of  trying to offer suggestions. Take your pick I guess, lol

Or...that English is not his first language

Ya think?

I'm glad you find him as such. I was just trying to let people know that he is far, far from a "regular Joe". That's all. Accusing him of being envious of vips makes no sense when he is a vip himself.

Your post strikes a cord. I feel sorry when Joe falling for reviews. There are more Joe than VIPs. Why don't they write more reviews to expose the shills and help others?

I feel bad for the Kgirls if I review average/below average sessions. Considering it's just a hobby. An average Kgirl is still worth my time. Below average means I am not into her. They also rebrand fast when they are not popular. I must ask why mongers keep falling for shills?

I don't need networking or research. Many Kgirls recycle pics and I am nearly as good as a whole network. POs can't fool me for long. I don't need photos/info prior to posting when they can hardly get new Kgirls I like to repeat.

No trouble prebooking first appointment. Rarely felt like I got bumped. Never for ATFs. I don't think VIPs can beat me at my own playground without going through extraordinary effort and spending.

What can they gain by beating me? Do I care when I already got what I wanted?

In addition to seeing 3 to 4 Kgirls a week, all I do is try to be pleasant and problem-free for Kgirls and POs. I am easy money to them.

Accusing who of being envious? The statement about stop being envious was in response to the "what else" about dealing with the fact that businesses all have preferred customers. No need for anyone to feel envious and it doesn't help anything or anyone.

 
And no, your post was hardly about telling people you don't think the OP is one of the "Joes". If that was your point you would have a one or two line comment.

first of all, sorry about bad grammar or spelling! getting older and need my glasses, especially while posting in a rush!

Rocket seems having wrong impression about me from day 1, probably miscommunication or wrong info from one of our local private group which I left not too long ago.
I'm neither Joe nor VIP to any local K-org. Have been in K-scene since 09', of course I frequent a couple local places, but don't think I'm their VIP.  
And, I did get bumped once awhile back from one of the local K-orgs.
Still remember what happened. There was  a super popular, ATF at the time, visiting DMV,  I prebooked multiple days for the first week. Met the girl on her first day, PO then called me on next day morning to cancel my app to fit in a VIP of hers,  and said since I still have other pre-booked appointments and already met her once, she thought I'm OK to give up mine.
Of course, I was pissed and canceled the rest of my prebooked.
Anyway, just some old history!  

Here in DMV, don't think VIPs get to see new girls before posted starting dates, but probably allowed to earlier pre-book.

You directly called him a shill. That’s not “just trying to let people know” that he’s not a regular Joe. Post a link to a “shill” review if you’re so sure.

I was referring specifically to this offshооt branch and my responses to lopaw.

 
I just wanted to make it clear to her that op is far from regular Joe. Regular Joe's in your neck of the woods don't have the power to vouch other clients in after they can't get in for a long time. Regular Joe's consume and often they don't even read reviews. They don't promote girls, they don't have a beeline to orgs/Pos, and they usually don't have a beeline to the girls.

 
As far as proving he is a sh_ill, it shouldn't be hard but I'll leave it for another thread. I don't want this one to be dеleted as well.

-- Modified on 2/7/2023 4:02:38 PM

We all agree that bumps happen, right?

 
We also (hopefully) agree that Pos will never say that you were bumped as the reason.

 
So this means, at some point the POs will simply LIE in order to have their cake (appease the vip person) and eat it too (not piss off the bumpee with the truth).

 
So, why should we have anything resembling good faith again, Jensen? Maybe if they told the truth and straight up told clients someone more important booked the girl - ie the TRUTH - then we would have more basis for good faith. But I'm sure you qualify this lie as a noncosequential white lie because it's done to preserve biz. Maybe you like getting fucked in the ass, but I like to know when I'm about to get fucked in the ass.

 
When you LIE to customers in order to get more biz and not lose biz, you lose any semblance of good faith you ever had to start with.

"I feel bad for the Kgirls if I review average/below average sessions"

 
You feel bad for the kgirls for evaluating your assessment of what you paid for fairly?

You feel bad for kgirls who will then rebrand in three to four weeks after they get a batch of reviews and will target some other Joe's who will think she's new... rinse and repeat.

 
Yeah I feel zero empathy for kgirls here. Plenty of other jobs out there if you can't do your job without misleading and lying and running from accountability.  

 
Who I feel empathy is for Joe's who get misled in such a way. But they are the ones who get blamed, for some reason. Why not blame the party that actually lied and misled?

Exactly.

 
And never forget that these agencies have never been known for professional level management and never will be. It’s not like a public, or even private company, that can advertise opportunities and attract the best talent. Customers and agencies alike are all working under the radar, so to speak. In spite of what some might want us to think, there’s only so much anyone on either end of this business can really do.  

 
Though I understand the feelings of the activist mongers. I believe that lobbying for any real change is a bit like pissing into the wind. You may feel relieved a bit. But the results of that activism nearly always fall far short of what anyone could hope for. And, in my experience, frequently just makes things worse for yourself and potentially others.  

 
Better Tomorrow has it right, I think. Even if there is such a thing as the mythical VIP (as unlikely as I think it is). It is far more likely that any bad experiences are caused by poor management on the part of the agency, misunderstandings caused by cultural or language differences or poorly considered behavior on the part of the monger. We’re all imperfect beings doing the best we can and trying to learn how to optimize our experiences based on our own preferences. Anybody who tries to claim otherwise is trying to sell something.

Amen sister.

OP, if you are an average joe, what does that make us? LOL

Sunny gets it

Yet you start with acknowledging you are quite unlikely to actually get the true facts of a situation.  That's an impartial and reasoned approach.

 
As for your bad BA agency. Just don't go there. Taking the flow of money away is a MUCH more productive approach. If others in the area cannot restrain themselves at least you are not contributing to the problem.

You think 3 to 4 times a week is what an average Joe does?
I would think once a week would be closer to being an average Joe.
Even that might be too much, more like twice a month.

I agree with you. By all means, I think we should call out the party that lied and misled others. Who can lie to and mislead me?
.
I make the decision to give money away when I try a new Kgirl. Not because of shills or POs. Her only crime? She was not attractive enough. No complaint about service. Pics are real but over 10 years younger. No age in ad. I only had a sliver of hope she is as young and attractive as pics. She wanted to see me again. I could feel anxiety in her eyes. She rebranded as Hu at kpopgirls.club.
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To think I can destroy her lively hood by reviewing, it's just sadden me. To review and gloss over her appearance would mislead mongers. Rebrands, shills, and POs can't derail me. Giving money to a Kgirl or a charity make no difference to me.
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I feel empathy for Joes but Joes must band together and write more reviews. It's the most effective solution.

What does "acknowledging that we are not likely to get true facts" have to do with the fact that if bumps are to happen, they will be lied about? ...and hence my question about good faith that you haven't answered yet.  

 
Why would anyone put their faith in someone who cancels your appointment and then lies about why?  

Maybe if they haven't lied about why, and were ready to face the consequences of people not liking to be bumped... they would deserve some good faith.  

 
As is, you're asking for good faith in perpetual liars, who will lie readily if it gives them extra green paper. Huh? That's like giving any politician good faith. Lol.

I do not know if op's a shill but I can see why Rocket thinks so. I may opine when Rocket makes that thread. I like to know why more Joes don't write reviews if they were misled by shills? Isn't that what TER is for? Is it that hard to expose shills?
.
I don't have VIP but you gentlemen can read the op's review about Hu and compare with other reviews to see if there was promotion going on. The op also reviewed Sally. Both were in SoCal so I know something about them.
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Hu: http://www.theeroticreview.com/reviews/hu-2136483178-378805
Formerly known as Cia: http://www.theeroticreview.com/reviews/cia-3103513595-374899
IIRC, she was also Mew: http://www.theeroticreview.com/reviews/mew-7143181388-359670

besides getting girls info earlier,  
able to prebook earlier,  
meeting new girls before starting dates,  
bumping Joe's appointment to meet popular girls,  
recently just learned another thing VIPs can do/ask from a girl who just finished a tour in OC, seeing  girls or extending session time passing   daily normal hours.  
This girl I know was complaining she couldn't finish last appointment on time two day in a row, since PO asked her to treat this VIP well to accommodate VIP's schedule.
Do you think average Joe can ask K-org to arrange this?

The simple answer is, “Yes, the average Joe can ask for this”

The simple reason that many “average Joes” get treated like average Joes is because they simple don’t ask for or expect any perks.  Bottom line, if you’re an informed TER connoisseur of KGirls, you should at least ask for VIP treatment (if that’s what you want). Even the most petulant board Beta’s here could enjoy VIP perks if only they asked for them.

Now does this apply to uninformed mongers who don’t educate themselves in the KGirl forums? No, it doesn’t.  Those guys are most likely flying blind and don’t even realize that there are VIP perks to be had.

Man, what "punishmеnt" are you talking about???  

 
A girl getting deserved bad reviews and thus getting slower biz isn't "punishmеnt". It's called review mechanism working AS Intended.  

 
A girl who rebrands and runs away from bad review only to pop somewhere else and receive bad reviews there and then bounce, is an example of someone who is trying to lie and gаme the systеm, specifically Joe's who don't do research. People with connections and some time on their hands- not even necessarily vips-can discern some of the rebrands, but it's really the Joe's who will get swindlеd by rebrands.

 
And if a girl is getting bad reviews deservingly and she can't continue her biz without lying and misleading who she is/was, maybe it's time to wish her best future endeavors in another profession. Don't try to fit a squаre pеg into a loоse round hоle or something like that.

 

"I make the decision to give money away when I try a new Kgirl. Not because of shills or POs."

Aw come the fuck on. People are constantly swayed by pics, shill reviews and so forth. You placing blame on your decision conveniently defends bad practices.

 
It's like saying, people who got scаmmed by Enrоn, made their own decision to invest into it. Well yeah because they were swayed by fаke promises and fаlse data. If we are to employ your logic, the ponzi schеme was perfectly fine because it is YOU who made the decision to give money away. Right? Wrong. Wrong!

 
"She wanted to see me again. I could feel anxiety in her eyes. "

 
Almost a "les miserables" story. And I have anxiety in my eyes when I read reviews of people who had a bad time and lamented lack of honest reviews..

 

"To think I can destrоy her lively hood by reviewing, it's just sadden me."

Oh for Pete's sake, boo effing hoo.

"I feel empathy for Joes but Joes must band together and write more reviews"

How can you say this after JUST saying you're saddened and don't want to write bаd reviews? Huh???

-- Modified on 2/8/2023 6:02:34 PM

because you didn't think she was attractive enough for you!
Looks are subjective and I would bet that she looks good enough that she didn't commit any crime!

I would like to discuss more. Let's create a new thread for the two of us. Nobody else may be interested in our civilized discussion.
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There are more "les miserables" stories. I can't help what the heart feels. I still want to justify why I don't review for that reason.
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I said "Joes" should write more reviews. I am the Joe who TOFTT and don't review. I am the team of one. I don't read reviews so I think other Joes did nothing for me. Kgirls can make me feel good. POs can give me info and reserve my prebook weeks in advance.
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You said, "I read reviews of people who had a bad time and lamented lack of honest reviews." Let's take this to a new thread and educate me. I am not aware of many people in SoCal who lamented this.
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If you convince me it's that bad for Joes, I can get VIP and read all reviews to root out all the shills in SoCal. If there are to many shills then I will name the trustworthy reviewers. I may also start reviewing. I can post which girls use fake pics or accurate pics. Give more accurate age range. Last time I tried to help Joes, my thread with accurate pics got taken down.

Yeah I'm not even sure of the reason behind this thread - is it just humblebragging from a VIP? LMAO

Or is it something that is just over my head? BC I just don't get it tbh

Seems that his concern is all about motivation of a review. Who cares? What is important is if the review helps someone and is largely accurate. As you note looks are subjective, but so is performance in many ways. Reading some of the reviews general details (no VIP so that is all I see) seems that the accused shill's reviews are very much in line with the average assessment of the other reviews.

 
Makes you wonder just who the actual shill is in the thread and just what exactly is being promoted.

Badgers post was replying to abt but it seems your post is meant for me..

 
LOL at who cares. Jensen, do you know why on YоuTube videos and Goоgle аds etc you have the phrase "spоnsоred content"? It's to let the consumer know that the creator has been pаid by a third party, often the same party whose product is being reviewed/discussed in this content. Conflict of interest is a huge thing.  

 
Intent is a big deal (admittedly, if intent of reviews was the only problematic thing with shills it would be a lot more bearable). Given the same five facts one can dress up their review in a way that would entice others to see the girl. It's called manipulаtive marketing, but I'm sure you'd justify that as well.

-- Modified on 2/9/2023 1:29:34 PM

boards for years, and he has a unique way of looking at the Kgirl scene and a tendency towards a high level of personal privacy.  I, too, don't always agree with his approach, but when we can get him to engage on this board, due to his high volume with Kgirls, he is an excellent source of quality information on the local SoCal Kgirl scene about new girls due to his propensity to TOFTT.  Some would call if adventurous, some would call it reckless, but it's his money, so he can spend it how he wants.  

 
Younger guys are always more critical of "looks" than older guys.  When you are over 50, almost any slender working girl in her 30's is fuckable.  When you get handed lemons, add some sugar and make lemonade.  Lol

Yes, I thought badger was responding to your post rocket.

 
And no, motive doesn't matter when compared with the actual outcomes of events. If I am frequently rescheduled/cancelled on then I don't care why -- the why doesn't change that I don't get to play as planned. Same for reviews -- as I've often said, one must not only assess the provider but also the reviewer. I've seen too many cases where some reviewers assessments are miles from my own experience. I could claim there was some motivation but the reality is it doesn't matter. I just learn to ignore those reviewers as I will agencies that fail to honor the schedule they agreed to.

 
If it's a one off situation I see no need to attribute ill will to any action as we live in an imperfect world. Given that the motivation is not something one can actually observe it is only imperfectly inferred. But like I said, you're always ready to step in as judge, jury and executioner so not surprised that you would defend the value of assumed motives.

It seems Rocket accused the Kgirls of various violations on Consumer Protection law so I went along and stated her "crime". I understand looks is subjective. That's another reason why I prefer to let her be reviewed by people who appreciated her beauty.
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Her real pics are in the linked review. Pic in red bikini was closer to her age and reasonably accurate. Other pics are much younger and pic in white bikini may not be hers. Someone who was attracted by her younger pics might feel like it was a B&S. I looked at her oldest pic and hoped she still retained that look. I like women who are younger and more attractive than her red pic. I visited because nobody new was better that week. I can agree with her first review that she's "still fairly attractive though".
.
PO confirmed that she's good service and it was true. I knew not to expect much from appearance for my taste after quick check with PO.
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She didn't have any review and I didn't want to be the first to ruin her. She and PO did nothing wrong to me. With my TOFTT experience, I can wreck havoc on their business if I give accurate reviews for Kgirls not up to my standard.  
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I know some Kgirls and POs read reviews. Some Kgirls may even recognize the reviewer if writing unique details. POs even asked me to write reviews but I rather not. I have more to lose than mongers who see Kgirls less often.

END OF MESSAGE

about younger guys being critical of looks.
I think you can add age to that too.  
I read a lot of complaints about a Kgirls age.
They say the Kgirl didn't look that good and was older than I like.

Motive always matters. If a perpetrаtor was planning a cr!me and the plan didn't go through because of some chance, he is still a perpetrаtor. Judging everything by the outcome is hilarious. If we cannot even agree on something so fundamental, I'm not sure what there is to talk about.  

 

Once again, you employ the "ignorance is bliss" mantra. I employ the "I wanna know as much as I can" even if it can potentially antagonize/lead to further problems. You want to avoid conflict at all cost even if it means sticking head in sand.  
If truth is so hot it can burn the house down, so be it.  

 
As far as judgе, exеcutioner, blah blah... I find these labels amusing when your advice in the thread was to place good faith in entities that lie. Notice you couldn't even disputе that they lie, you merely are saying "it doesn't matter that they lied if you cant know for sure". Absurd. The most absurd was the attempt to normalize and justify the bumping process by some folks on here, but if thats so normal why don't orgs say this to customers faces that they got bumped ? They scаred to lose some dеаd presidеnts? They scаred to tell the truth? And why should they be given good faith simply because you can't catch em? Still haven't received an answer here. If you think bumping is so reasonable, then why don't orgs/po say it outright?  

-- Modified on 2/10/2023 2:16:43 AM

-- Modified on 2/10/2023 2:18:01 AM

"She didn't have any review and I didn't want to be the first to ruin her."

But it'd be OK to be the second one to "ruin her"? So basically, she needs to get some tricks before she gets a negative review? Lol. Exactly what I was talking about.

 
" I have more to lose than mongers who see Kgirls less often"  

 
So you just admitted not wanting to write negative reviews because the girls/pos might not like it and you got something to lose. OK, understandable.  

 
But tell me, why would they get mad at the truth and even go so far as to threаten you to lose something, when you are a guy who sees their girls often ? Seems like even being a long time client, you can't publicly write the truth or you get punishеd. Kinda sad if you ask me. Much sadder than kgirls getting a bad review that they deserved and preventing others from potentially wasting money

-- Modified on 2/10/2023 2:33:51 AM

Isn't it against the rules to use your alias on your own post?

"So, how average joe to beat VIP in booking with girls?"

 
Seems to me that the post was from someone that is not a Joe suggesting ways for anyone to improve their booking experiences and avoid some of the disappointments that some here say they suffer from VIPs and bookers that cater to them at the expense of lower valued customers.

 
I'm definitely not a VIP but don't experience the Joe Blues that are complained about. I have largely followed the list offered since I started and perhaps it has paid off.  But perhaps it is due to my being flexible with scheduling and generally asking when someone is available rather than starting with a can I have a specific time. Or if I have some potential conflicts asking something like "availability after 1" or "availability before 5". While the agencies often don't like prebooking too much that has also lead to making an appointment for the next day if the day I asked about is booked rather than the usual "Call back in the morning about 9".

and because you speak Korean, and from a few mutual kgirl friends you are one of their best clients!

It's technically an aliаs of another account, but good catch!

 
I didn't pay attention to the patterns here.

-- Modified on 2/10/2023 10:23:25 AM

Back when my schedule was much more flexible, I used to go between 2 and 4 times a week. Though, for quite some time I had a couple of UTR girls in that rotation. I’m quite certain that never qualified me for what most consider VIP. I didn’t get to see girls before they started officially working. I always worked with the schedule given me by the org or the girl.  

 
Though I admit sometimes girls would schedule time with me and then clear it with their PO. But that was only with regulars. I only did that for a couple of years and found it annoying to have the double approval hoop to jump through. So I never do that anymore.

 
I think trying to figure out the definition of an average Joe sort of misses the point though.

 
It seems to me the point here is how to get yourself treated so that you *feel* like a VIP. I’ve been pretty clear that I think actual VIPs are rare. Are there sometimes whales who drive more business than most of us? Absolutely. Though from what I am aware of, this is far less common than it once was.  

 
But, unless you have the means and the desire to be a whale, it is pointless to compare yourself to that.  

 
I have only rarely encountered a monger who couldn’t significantly improve their kgirl experiences by optimizing their interactions with the orgs and the girls. Exactly like you would with any other business you deal with, if you are a savvy consumer. Though I have encountered more than a few that draw a line in the sand for whatever reason and say “this is as far as I’m willing to go” and don’t care if making changes would improve their experience. Even if they frequently complain about poor service from agencies and girls. It’s as if making changes threatens their manhood or identity or something. But that is their choice.

 
My viewpoint is that it makes no sense to focus on things you either can’t or don’t want to change. And let everyone else make the same choice for themselves.  

 
So, look at what you think you really want/need that you’re not getting. If it’s important to you, figure out what you might be able to change to get what you want. I think most will be amazed how much “VIP” treatment they can actually get.

"Activist mongers" - I love that term. Might steal it and use it myself. Thanks.
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To me it's a simple solution - if they think she's too old or she's too ugly, walk out. Or if they think she provides bad service don't go back. I've done both, although my walk-outs have been with indies and not KGirls because I've never walked into a KGirl appointment and thought she was too ugly to fuck. But I've had a few poor service dates where I've told the booker I was disappointed, wrote an accurate review, and stayed away from the agency for a while.
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And, you're correct that they're pissing into the wind, and we all know what happens when one does that, they're all wet.
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As to the VIP mongers, that must be a Bay area phenomenon. I'm certainly not a VIP (I see +/- 10 KGirl dates a year, often seeing a specific KGirls 3 or more times if I like her) but I've always received polite service from the bookers. And I don't care about seeing the 'new girls' because I never see a KGirl until she has multiple reviews that I find reputable. So I don't care about the 'perks' of being a VIP. I guess for the young guys here it's like it was for me when I was young and I got free concert and sports tix because I worked in and had friends in those fields. As I rapidly approach 70 I'm happy to pay for my tix, and just happy to still have some access.

ROFLOL. I think the best one can say about my Korean speaking is that I TRY to speak it. Anyone can make that effort and to be honest it hasn't been until fairly recently I made enough of an effort to even suggest I could speak at all -- just able to say a few words or set phrases.

 
But I do think making efforts like that -- being able to at least say Hi, Thanks, You're pretty, Have a nice night/Good night -- help lower the level of worry/stress K-girls have when meeting someone the first time. It at least demonstrates some recognition of them as a human being with a background and life separate from the P4P that you acknowledge and respect. I think showing that you're not "looking down" on them (i.e., just see them as your sex toy or means to sexual gratification) help them lower their guard a bit with you and so you have a much better session and will be welcomed back. That is one reason I have often tossed out some words here in case someone wanted to give things a try themself.

 
Although you don't even need to learn Korean. Just look up the crazy marketing holidays in Korea -- always on the 14th of the month -- and if you see a K-Girl on or near one of those days make some comment about the holiday and see how they react.

Glad it was just a timeout.

They wait for someone to TOFTT. Rocket, I would be right there with you helping Joes if it was that bad in LA. But when you use me not writing reviews as hurting average Joes, you miss one crucial point. The kind of mongers like me. We are dumb Joes.
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As CDL said, we are reckless. Mongers like me don't wait for reviews!
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The type of Kgirls I see are usually UTR and get popular from word of mouth. They are the girls we give good feedback to POs and others before the larger community hears of them. They can only get more popular with reviews.
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I also generally know which Kgirls may not be up to my standard. Occasionally I chose to visit anyway and would find they are not busy. Even girls not up to our standard can't get shills. Just look at Cia, does her 3 reviews sound like promotion?

seeing Kgirls, about half my sessions were with new girls with no reviews. I found that taking a booker recommendation when you're new gets you to preferred customer status much quicker than playing it safe and waiting for reviews.  I still see girls with no reviews, but because I typically wait at least 2-3weeks to post the reviews (so the girl will not be able to easily connect the review to a particular customer after seeing 60 more since then), someone else has usually put up a profile by then, but never fear, whatever they got wrong in the profile regarding looks or age, I will correct in the first paragraph of my review.  

 
Admittedly, I slowed down on TOFTT when Covid hit, preferring to see girls I already knew and who were hurting for business.  I couldn't help everyone, but I helped as many as I could during 2020.  

Did you see Cia?
Profile says a few tats, right?
I read a couple of months ago that a Cia was a rebrand of a Kgirl that went by the name, Mew.
Did she have a tattoo down her spine?  
Now, this could be a different Cia if no spine tattoo.

You are kinda deflecting here.

 
You said you have more to lose than average monger. Now you are equating yourself with an average monger.

 
But I do want to know why you don't want to be the "first one" in writing a negative review and what do you have to lose. I want to hear from a regular client who constantly toftts, his fears in terms of orgs/girls. And then ask whether that's a normal relationship between a client and product he consumes and company that sells the product.

There is not product here. What is offered are personal services so why do you keep calling these women products?

Yaaaawn

 
I was wondering when you'd play this card. This is a card org shills love to play. Anyone who pushes back against girls and orgs is a woman hаter and other nonsense like objectification.

 
If you're in a business of selling, you sell a product. Period. Service can and is in this case a product.  
My chiropractor as well as my physical therapist both sell their service as a product. My car mechanic sells me his service as a product.  

 
We've been through thar a million times and you're still asking this dumb question. Sounds like you got nothing to say besides that. No response as to why we need to place good faith in entities that perpetually lie - with pics, bumping, etc - in order to make more money. No response as to why orgs never tell us about bumping if its so normal, as in, you know - tell the TRUTH instead of lying.  

 
And no, selling sexual service doesn't make anyone anymore special than a doctor, a physical therapist, etc. The all sell a product. They got a problem with that, they can provide this service for free and I won't call it a product anymore.

deflection and false accusation and absence of an answer noted.

 
You can continue do the things you always take others to task for doing. You can continue using rather standard terminology in a nonstandard way but perhaps might benefit from the following links.
http://www.indeed.com/career-advice/career-development/products-vs-services
http://www.uschamber.com/co/grow/sales/differences-in-selling-products-and-services

 
And of course you can keep calling anyone that dare to reject the whole us-them framework you demand by not painting every booker or provider with the same broad paint brush you keep handy as shill.  I am left with the impression that anyone interested in actually telling anyone about providers that they find worth seeing and worth the entry fee is a shill in your eyes. But since you've called me out, please at least produce your criteria for classifying a shill from someone that is just trying to spread good news. I personally think most here are actually interested in meeting good providers as their main goal for being here so that type of information probably more valuable than the pan reviews.

Lmao at absence of an answer. I GAVE you the answer unlike you whom I still haven heard any answer regarding what this good faith stems from or why dont orgs tell the truth. My answer is - I'm not objectiftying anyone anyone who sells anything is selling a product. You are just looking for an excuse to discredit me.  

And I gave you the link to this years ago.  

 
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Service_as_a_product

"SaaP has become a delivery model for some businesses, including small and medium-sized enterprises (SMEs), freelancers, and independent contractors. It has been incorporated into the strategy of several leading web-based marketplace companies including AirBnB, Fiverr, Lyft, TaskRabbit, Uber and others, as listed in the SaaP marketplace platforms section below."

 
Uber sells product. Fiverr sells product, etc etc.  

 
You don't agree with my terminology? Too bad, keep saying that I" objectify" women. Stop saying I dint answer your question though, I have.  

 
I wouldn't mind you answering my question, but I know this is a tall task. Just like you can't ever name a bad experience girl publicly, just like you can't call a spade spade in review without resorting to euphemisms, you're unable to clearly state publicly that "orgs will lie to mongers to make more money when bumping". If you think it normal then what's the fucking problem here, chief? Oh I get it you want to justify it's normal but don't want to say it publicly because God forbid the image of orgs is tarnished. You wanna eat the cake and have it too. I'm just having fun watching you try to get out of it.  

I'll give you one more chance tho.  

 
Do orgs/girls lie in pics? If yes, why give them good faith?
Do orgs lie to the bumpees when bumping them? If so, why can't they tell the truth and why again, should we give them good faith.

 
Come on, shouldn't be hard to answer.
You can answer "because I like vagina"
Or "even though they're liars they give pussy"
Or "because they lied ten times we don't know they will lie on the eleventh"

 

I didn't call you a shill. I said the card youve played is a card played commonly by shills. I've been doing this policing and putting shills in their place for years now. I've seen it all how they fly in when a new girl is given a bad review publicly. And how they will readily accuse fellow mongers of silliest things to drum up the girl biz and rescue it.  We just saw a guy accuse two mongers of having stinking asses in order to prop up a girl. And I didn't notice you question it. I wonder why.  

 
Unlike you I'm answering all your questions. It's very simple to figure out who a shill is. He is always more interested in getting business for the girl than caring about accuracy of a report. He will throw mongers under the bus to prop up girls. He will always advertise the girl, not in recommendation type of way, but advertising type of way. Note how I give my rec for a girl I never give a link? That's because I don't want to prop up any biz. I couldn't give two flying shits that my atf isn't getting any biz, whether she's starving or swimming in money like Scrooge McDuck, I'm not here to help her in any way possible. I'm here to give fellow mongers minis or reviews or recs. Just like I don't give a shit about a doctor or mechanics biz. If it'sa bad rec and she literally cant work anymore because of a bad review, I don't give a shit. Reviews are sacred. If no one sees you because of a bad review, too bad. Ups is hiring.  

 
Don't confuse objectifying with being ruthless towards the seller. I have zero empathy for entities that try to make money off lies and want them to lose money for each lie. On other hand, I love my nonshill monger bros who share info wihout any monetary or reciprocal gains in return. And I try to be the same.  

 

A shill will often skim on description of a girl, seemingly on accident forgetting to note something very important, like maybe that she's 15 years older than in pics, or she is fatter than pics, or maybe she has big visible scars. He will focus on something that might attract business. A shill will seldomly note details that might discourage others to see the girl.  

 
I've literally seen shills say "oh its OK you have a negative review of her NOW because she has positive reviews already" lmao. They care more about girls biz and nothing about mongers in the bottom of pyramid getting swindled and keep blaming them for bad experiences. Shills have no respect for reviews, for them they're merely vehicles to prop up revenue and raise my blood pressure. Shills generally  have double standards - they will gloat about a girl, and yet at best they simply they won't say anything about a bad girl. At worst, they'll prop her up with scarce details and create a penthouse tale around the experience in order to make business. Many shills will even outright lie. Many shills do things for orgs and girls, ie what useyrhead calls insiders. They help girls move, they help org pos/owners, etc etc. They clearly have conflict of interest and should never be writing reviews. Just like family and friends should never be allowed to write reviews or recs of anything without a huge disclaimer saying they have conflict of interest.  

 
Was that enough of an answer or you will say again I don't answer your posts? Lol
I have zero expectation of you answering my posts though.

Seriously, I understand your points so well I can rebutt from your POV till we reach an impasse. These days with more LA mongers quitting Kgirls or waiting for someone else to review, I think LA needs even more positive reviews that are accurate.
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I have never written negative review before so it's just hypothetical. I am afraid being the "first one" makes it easier to identify me. Negative reviews get more scrutiny. I may just get a warning but I don't want to risk losing even one PO in this day of multiple POs booking same Kgirls. Even POs rebrand.
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I have more to lose because I am Kgirls addict. Businesses have the right to refuse service to anybody, let alone a customer who hurts their business. I can bring more power to the consumers, but I can't help if the company freezes my access.
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You know Legend Sara from the Bay? Hope I recall her name correctly. I TOFTTed when she came down. She understood younger guys don't like her. She had great service though. I asked if she would like me to review her since she wasn't busy. She said no. I think she was afraid I would comment about her looks and age.
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In other words, she thought my review would still do her more harm than good. It would feel like a negative review. IIRC, nobody ever reviewed her in SoCal. Yet another example it's unfair to hold me responsible for mongers who TOFTT if they got disappointed.
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I don't argue that Kgirls, shills, or POs could be misleading to some mongers. I can make quite an impact if it's really bad for many mongers. But I would have to be like Batman.

I mentioned in this thread that Cia might be Mew if I recall correctly. I just wasn't sure if you saw the same Mew. She did have a tattoo of some Chinese or Korean characters down her spine among other tattoos around her shoulder or back.
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You and CDL are absolutely correct that younger guys are more critical of looks and age. CDL also reviewed her. You may not be pleased to hear my assessment of her looks and age. But as I said before, her service was good and she was "still fairly attractive though" for her age.
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Badger's review: http://www.theeroticreview.com/reviews/detail/mew-review-by-badger48-2297160
CDL's review: http://www.theeroticreview.com/reviews/detail/mew-review-by-coeur-de-lion-2304528

CDL gives good advice for new guys. I was trying to get Rocket to understand why I don't want to be "first review" for that reason.
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I used to wait at least a week to review. We had many more reviewers back then. Safety in number.
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These days young Kgirls may only stay 3 days or a week or two for some quick money. In general, I think the Kgirls may rebrand or leave within a week or two depending on business. If I were to help others as Rocket likes, I would need to review within 3 days. It's even riskier when I can see a Kgirl is not busy and I may be one of the very few who saw her.
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I provide feedbacks to PO, so in a way, I already contribute even without reviewing. PO may also provide constructive feedback to a Kgirl based on our input. Feedback also helps a decent PO to steer away from a Kgirl or recommend based on our preference.

So we finally arrive at the crux of the problem.  

 
Do you think it's OK for them to blacklist you for writing a negative review? Is that an entity you'd want to place your faith in?  

 
Pay attention, Jensen.

 
No, we don't need more positive reviews. We need more NEGATIVE reviews. Instead, you care too much about hurting kgirls feelings and money, but seemingly are OK with hurting mongers feelings and money.

 
You know why I didn't care about your thread with  
pics  being removed? Because after a few posts it became an AD thread.  Ads belong in ad section.

 
And yeah negative review means fucking their biz. So? Why you even on this site if you cast write a negative review when it's needed?

 
Yeha I know Sara she blocked me on sw1tter even tho she saw me in person just fine. She also seemingly doesn't like mongers standing up for others and rallying for negative reviews.

 
It's the "everybody wanna go to heaven but nobody wanna diе" conundrum. Why don't you tell girls to take negative reviews and lumps like they take dick?

Yes, I saw the Mew with the tats. I'd say mid 30's or so and gave her an 8 'cause she was good looking.
Just the service for me started slow, and too distant/business like.
Kind of a strange session. I got a PM from another Monger a while later and he said his was strange and wanted to know if mine was too.
That was 2 years ago, hopefully she is better now, sometimes they need to get acclimated.
Had a session with another provider about a year ago, started slow and warmed up pretty good.
Well, I saw her a few weeks back and what a change, A+ session and now in my rotation!
No problem looks are always subjective.

Without reading any of our self avowed activist monger (though he never uses those words to describe it that I can recall from back when I used to read his posts in the hope that he would someday be able to control himself) I can assure you that he does not - and never will - care whether “product” is the correct word.  

 
Judging by all of the responses to his posts, he continues to suffer from a relatively advanced case of narcissism. Narcissists don’t actually care about open communication. They simply want attention.  

 
Don’t take my word for it. Look up narcissists. Check videos and literature on the topic. Their goal with their “communication” is simply to elicit the most passioned and unreasoned responses they can. So they will deliberately make statements that are untrue just to elicit the response they need so badly. Like a drug addict who will do anything for that next fix.

 
I’m sure he’ll go all irrational trying to defend himself again if he takes the trouble to read this response (we can all only hope that he misses it). The choice we all have is to either ignore him or feed him. There is no in between.

 
Still, you’re an adult and a very smart guy. You can make your own decision.

 
Whatever you decide to do, all the best to you and everyone else (even our friend who is battling his narcissism - though he’ll never admit it publicly, his neurosis pains him at least as much as it does the rest of us) on this board.

-- Modified on 2/12/2023 12:10:08 AM

Positive or negative reviews?
What is needed is honest and more informative reviews!

of six months when TER resumed service in the US after being dark for 20 months, reviews must normally be submitted within three months of your session.  You also have to have a working ad link.  This is the only downside to my practice of waiting 2-3 weeks to submit the review.  If the girl leaves, and I can't find another city where she has moved to, the review sits in my queue for 90 days, and after that, I delete it because it's too late to submit.  This has only happened about eight or nine times since I have been reviewing here, so it's a risk I'm willing to take to put a little time/distance between my real persona and the CDL review.

First, your wiki is for a marketing term a small business made up to differentiate itself from others in a competitive space. That's not a good basis for supporting your claim. You directly claim Uber sells a product I'll merely quote from your own source: "Uber offers vehicle for hire and food delivery services:. You don't hire products. So it would seem that your own reference says something other than what you are claiming.  You might also note they are talking more about the platform for selling/distributing digitized products. Last they even note that the thing they are calling SAAP is also called "on-demand service".

 
It was very clear in your post that you were calling me a shill, just as you have called a number of people you disagree with shills since you've joined TER. You've not provided any such evidence. You're being disingenuous. When I call you on something I stand by it. You should stop saying things you either cannot support or don't what to stand by. For example, about a week ago you where suggesting some review was fake/shill (forget which) and you were investigating. The poster you said this to said he would wait for you to produce your results. I don't think I've seen anything posted by you. Was there? Or were your suspicions proven false or unsupported but you didn't want to concede that outcome. Or did you just not follow through on what your claimed? That, however, seems a bit like you being happy to cast innuendo and leave things there. If so that is not what I would see as honorable, ethical or even truthful behavior.

 
I'm not reading all you wrote about how you classify but find your claims about adding a link rather illogical. You are willing to give a recommendation for a specific girl. Clearly if people believe you then you are in fact helping the business, all you're doing is making it more difficult (perhaps trivially) for others interested in seeing the girl.  

 
Note, I do think one could distill your statements into more objective heuristics that could be applied by those looking at reviews to improve how people might be using reviews -- particularly newer mongers that are still learning. I don't think the attempt to infer motive actually adds much value though. Much more important to be able to identify the information, and the reviewers, that is helps one identify the providers they will enjoy spending the money on and their time with than caring about why someone did something. But if people feel better about disregarding some reviews/reviewers as shill reviews and they are not tossing too many babies out with the bath water they probably should do so. But I also think pretty much all of that has already been discusses and rehashed for years here so not really anything new but there really isn't a great Newbie FAQ entry for how to vet reviews to achieve better results. Probably could be one.

 
Regarding pics, That's been discussed many times and there a many reason why it happens. In my case all the agencies I'm going provider reasonably good pics but I admit I'm not as worried about exact image. There are some agencies in the area that tend to use older pics and have been doing so for years. I have never sought to be approved for them and don't feel I've lost out by not giving them my money.  

 
That is an easy choice for anyone to make: if a business has practices you don't like don't shop there. If others want to that is their business and I see no need to get all upset about either the business continuing to have customers that seem willing to pay or that others are willing to support a business that does things I don't approve of. I am also on the record for saying that not giving such businesses money is a much better way of inducing behavioral changes in their practices than all the soapbox sermons you've done. Why have you never called out the guys that keep enabling such businesses?

 
You seem to suggest that my prior statements  about good faith were some type of blanked statement rather than a conditional one. You ignored the "trust but verify" reference in that post.  But since you seem to need some elaboration, one should start with some brand assessment. As I note, some agency here are known as less reliable and posting old pics. I've not sought their service.  

 
Others don't have the reputation and I so I start with the presumption of innocence, as it were, and let them prove me wrong. If they live up to what I expect and need I will continue the relationship of good faith in one another. If I once in a while the I have a bad experience, pics are really old or really misleading and completely unrepresentative I will first chalk that up to the provider and let the booker know it was not what I was expecting.  But the occasional events are not some evidence of anything other than the imperfection of the world we live in and concluding some malicious intent on the bookers part unjustified. In other words, such a one off event is not a clear violation of the trust and good faith given. I was held much lower expectations during the worst of the pandemic period where getting any touring girls into the area was next to impossible and in that context "good faith" meant I assumed the agencies were trying the best the could -- but I also stopped seeing most of the few that did tour through the area.  

 
You've already admitted  that you will not know if someone's session is canceled by a VIP bump or some other cause so  you're making a logically unsupported jump to conclude that any given, much less all, cases a clearly lies. I've already said that I don't worry about the actual cause as they have absolutely no impact on the results. Whatever the cause I still don't get the appointment I had scheduled and than doesn't change whether or not someone else or no one else gets it.  

 
Shit happens and with such a rare occurrence (once in 10+  years) it makes more sense to me to assume nothing "offensive to me" was behind the event. If all the hundreds of other times have been honored why should I not continue engaging with them in good faith?

 
Should I experience too many reschedules start happening I would just find the provider or agency too unreliable for continuing a relationship with and look for someone else. If I hear of an agency that has a reputation for canceling that I would avoid such an agency.

 
None of the above is new or never said before.  

 
Coming back to my question, which you have not answered, why is it so important for you to describe the situation here as that of a product purchase situation rather that using the much more standard service description.  I cannot think of another person on this board that has ever use the term "product" in this context. The language used has either explicitly talks about service (you even use that terms most of the time) or language that is more suitable to services than products. So I'll ask again. Why this dogged insistence on using a term that does objectify the women if you're not trying to do so?  

 
Why not just use more accepted terminology and talk about services? Not using objectifying terminology in no way limits your ability to call out bad practices. I'm beginning to wonder if you even know why you are so insistent and defensive on this question.

Your question was - why do I keep objectifying women. I answered it - I don't consider word product to be objectifying. I use it in my everyday life to describe  anything that is sold.  

 
You now changed your question to if I know what is more accepted term why do I keep using the term.  
Answer is the same - I use it in my everyday life and will keep on using it. I don't think it objectifies women in any way shape or form because I use the same exact language when talking about my car mechanic - who is a man, my lawyer - who's a man, and my fitness coach, who is a man as well. They all sell me their service as a product. I don't consider sexual any different. Maybe you do. Good for you. If you think that's objectification, don't use they term. And I'll use whatever I want, because I don't change my behavior based in what a couple of people tell me.  

Is that clear enough? I've answered both your questions.  

 
No, I have not called you a shill. I have stressed that many times. I. Do. Not. Think. You're. A  
Shill. Even me and Gag agreed on that.  

 
Saying that what you used is straight out of a shills book, is not the same as calling you a shill
We might have a very different set of opinions, and I think some of your qualities are near shameful on how skewed they are against mongers and how much defending if kgirls and orgs you do, but I have never, ever considered that you're a shill. I do research on all mongers and peoplewho I think might be shills. You aren't one.  

 
Now. If you followed mine and abt conversation, we arrived at the point where he admits he can't write any negative reviews on totts because POs would figure out its him and do bad things to him. So once again, why would you give any good faith to such an entity? It's the same question I've asked when I got to this forum, and you mumbled something about restaurant not liking a negative review of something that is generally liked. Well, here's a new restaurant in town and abt was the only person in town to try it. And it stinks.

 
Instead if making sure no other Joe's gets screwed and the girl gets no further money, he is forced to hide himself for several days. I know because I've had it happen too. I don't want to be identified. But why is this even a thing? You tell me. This is a system designed to instill fear in mongers to NOT write negative reviews. How is that being fair or truthful to the customer? It isn't.

 
"You've already admitted  that you will not know if someone's session is canceled by a VIP bump or some other cause so  you're making a logically unsupported jump to conclude that any given, much less all, cases a clearly lies. I've already said that I don't worry about the actual cause as they have absolutely no impact on the results. Whatever the cause I still don't get the appointment I had scheduled and than doesn't change whether or not someone else or no one else gets it"

 
You're twisting my point. Lol. When RH was dissecting my story here he took offense of me having a hyperbole of how hot it was and said because I exaggerated, he is not willing to trust me in anything else. So why does that logic not apply to people who lie to make money? If bumps happen, they will lie about it - I NEVER heard of a PO admitting a bump. If pics are lies, then why do you give good faith? It doesn't make any sense.  

 
I didn't ask why pics happen or why you don't care about it. I asked why you are advising others to place good faith in enities that LIE in order to make money and often have conflict of interest to describe what they're selling truthfully.

Is the answer then you don't consider lying to be important when placing good faith. I won't speak for others, but I think being honest and truthful with your client is the main fucking thing to place your faith in.

 
I don't care about agencies trying as hard as they can. They can have bad quality, I'm asking them and girls to advertise themselves truthfully and don't make themselves better than they are. And first in first out (Fifo, hope you know this one better than saap) concept aka first come first serve in terms of appointments not some vips who can bump off anyone at a whim. None of these are hard to do, but they come at a cost of losing money.  

So again, agencies and kgirls place making money over truthful discource. OK, but why should we place our faith in them? Lol. I want you to say this aloud, but you clearly are deflecting.  

 
Say you're OK with them putting green dollar bills over regular Joes and trust and I won't ask you anything else, because it's clear what faith you're putting in them
But you want to make it seem like they are doing this somehow as an exception.  

No, they make the decision to do this every fucking day. Maximizing their profits on the tears/emotions of disappointed mongers. Because if some girls had their truthful pics put up, they wouldn't have any biz. Because if every monger who was bumped was told he's bumped people would shit on the org.  

 
That thread you talked about was rеmоved. I said the only investigation I'll do is to see if it's the girl I've seen and who contacts people on here. That investigation is still in process. I didn't say Id investigate his review. Pretty much any rebuttal review isn't a review I'll ever trust.
Certainly a review that accuses mongers of having stinky assholes is a review that I will tell anyone to not trust.

And I hope this isn't misunderstood or looked at as too harsh!
I guess at times a service can be looked at as a product, depends on who's doing the looking.
Whether a docs exam, a chef giving a meal or Uber a ride, can be a product in some people's eyes.
But I say it's the exam, meal and ride, not the human doc or chef, that would be the product.
I say a provider is not a product, maybe some might look at her service as a product, but I am interacting with a human being, not a product!
An Uber ride is with a vehicle, you aren't on someone's back, so no interaction with a human. It's a ride in a vehicle and the driver doesn't come into play, IMO, I wouldn't look at them as a product either.

 

One of the times a human was looked at as a product, they were on the slave block!  
Too harsh? But a reality that can't, IMO, be denied!

Let me ask you real quick

In this very thread, abt says he cannot post an honest negative review without being persecuted by orgs.
But, he has no problem making positive reviews

The only difference between a positive and negative review, as long as both are honest, is that one might h_urt girls feeling and money flow. And the other is the opposite.  

 
This is the entities you ask people to place their faith in, right? Entities that persecute honest, negative reviews by their regulars simply because it will lose them money?

But I get it. Anyone who goes against kgirls/orgs and laughs at concepts of "negative reviews don't work" and "we must appease kgirls so they bring their friends" is a narcissist, suffering from neurosis and other bullshit. Of course.  

 
LOL at posting shit publicly saying I hope he misses the response. You know well that I'm going to read it and respond to it.

 
I got time for ANYONE trying to defend shitty practices and pretend they aren't shitty. Bring it on.

This thread started with me empathizing Joes for misleading reviews to you demanding me to write negative reviews for mongers who TOFTT. Many of those same mongers didn't care about others to write any review LOL.
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I have been low key trying to help average Joes so they don't get misled. I fly UTR so POs and Kgirls can't identify me.
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I felt dumb sometimes when those Joes only take and never give. What's worse is when someone insinuating I am a shill when they haven't even seen the girls. Nobody care I am risking my mongering career for Joes who I ask for nothing in return.
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Don't forget I have significantly more rewarding experiences with Kgirls and orgs for many years. I am only here to see what mongers think about the state of things Kgirls. I am also an activist. Let's talk action.
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I would like to know what you have done so I can emulate if it was effective.  
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Please show me where you name POs and Kgirls to avoid. I need links to your negative reviews since I don't have VIP. I need to understand how you score Kgirls on TER. Did you stop reviewing because you only have 25 reviews?

-- Modified on 2/13/2023 2:09:05 AM

I agree honest and more informative reviews is needed.
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My honest TER scores and age rating may cause an uproar... Negative review means the POs, Kgirls, and may be other mongers, don't like it. They like scores of 9 or more. 8 not so much. Less than 8 can trigger panic. At least that was how I remember.  
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Writing informative reviews is hard. I struggle with it because I can't describe looks and performance well. CDL said he wrote review after a session then submit it much later. I should do that but would procrastinate then forgot details of session when I started writing.

"Businesses have the right to refuse service to anybody." Of course, I wouldn't like it if I was refused service. However, it's natural for the org to say if you are not happy then you can go somewhere else.
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I don't ask others to place their faith in those entities. I put my faith in the entities who didn't lie when I asked and has Kgirls I like. If they have been good to me then why shouldn't I continue to use them? I believe the entities I trust are also generally good to other Joes.

I just thought she was wary of me because I was only polite and not very engaging since I wasn't that into her. Kind of strange atmosphere at first. Distant/businesslike. I thought I might as well enjoy the most of it.
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At the end she looked happy with my performance and I could tell I would get better service next time. I think she knew I wouldn't repeat so she tried to make me promised to come back. I could repeat if I didn't know younger and more attractive Kgirls who made me forget it was a service. My guess she was early 40 and would give her less than an 8.

Classic narcissist tactic.

 
We were talking about the obviously inaccurate and deliberately (and uselessly) provocative use of the term “product”.  

 
And I just wasted 5 minutes of my time. But, hopefully, this helps others see through your time wasting efforts at getting attention wile providing no value.

Sexual service is a product just like transportation service (Uber) or doctor service. I really don't see much difference here.

I addressed all concerns and answered all questions regarding the "provocative" use of the word "product". That's what me and Jensen were discussing. You spent a whole post writing about me doing some "look ma I'ma doctor"  stuff. All while claiming that you don't read my posts, then you did read them. Lol  

 
No wonder you guys have zero issues with orgs lying. Every single one person on here who claimed they ignore my posts went back to reading them. Can't even tell the truth to themselves. What a shame.

-- Modified on 2/13/2023 9:49:05 AM

So, you think it's "natural" that orgs can bl you for simply writing an honest negative review?

 
And instead of condemning the practice and agreeing it's some plain ol' BULLSHIT, you go along with it? Instead of outright condemning it, you're having a discussion on how to avoid detection. At the very least I'd expect a condemnation out of you. But seems like with Jensen, it's too much to ask to explicitly condemn a shitty practice.  

 
I also don't get how you went from saying negative reviews are somehow a "punishment" to the girl to saying you would like to write negative reviews but can't. Something makes me think even if you could write negative reviews with no repercussions, you still wouldn't.  

 
I'm not sure how my reviews will help you if you don't have vip. Sure here's one:  

 
https://www.theeroticreview.com/reviews/detail/ellie-review-by-teamrocketqwerty-2393251

I gave this girl a 4 (four) in looks and that might have been generous. I called out the org too in general details for endorsing fake pics. Note that the first reviewer didn't mention any of the relevant info like the girl being 20 years older and 20 pounds heavier

 

 
The orgs threаt of bling you for negative review if done withjn first few days ensures the girl will gd their money at least from toftters, most of whom will be Joe's. And then when the word gets out she will already have made money then she rebrands under different name, going after Joe's in a different city again. What a wonderful, honest  customer-friendly behavior!

I have spent a very long time working with well known companies and business leaders. Helping them identify whether they can or should optimize to deliver products or services is a key step in taking either to market.

 
I promise you, any company that has a group of people who deliver services through whatever channel, platform or whatever absolutely never calls those deliverables products.  They do have packages of services that may create products.

 
There is also the very poorly named SaaP or Service as a Product category. However, all of these require customers to do business via a platform which exposes the units of service to which users can gain access. SaaP is essentially just a special case of Platform as a Service where the users engage with the Platform to create contracts with service providers.  

 
So, in SaaP, the only real product is the contract and, usually, a Statement of Work or SOW. Things that have nothing to do with mongering as we never engage with anything any reasonable person would call a platform. Nor have I ever seen or heard of any enforceable contracts, much less an actual SOW, in the mongering world. Though who knows? Maybe they exist somewhere.

 
Now can we get back to sharing info about kgirls?

-- Modified on 2/13/2023 10:08:25 AM

"This is the entities you ask people to place their faith in, right? Entities that persecute honest, negative reviews by their regulars simply because it will lose them money? "

 
Perhaps my earlier response wasn't posted or you had not seen it but I think that makes it very clear that what you describe has nothing to do with my statement. If clients are excluded from an agency for a bad, but accurate and neutrally toned object review representing their honest assessment then they should make their own decision on if that agency is one they should continue doing business with.  While I know you don't think a 6/6 review is bad it certainly is in this area and than is not just because everyone is some fearful agency toady.  I don't hide from the agencies and after such a review I got ZERO grief from the agency and no hint of a BL threat.

 
So my view, if that is someone's experience or opinion about and agency they probably should move on and not provide money to some entity they think is a bad actor. Not giving them money will be the best incentive to changing their behavior.

 
That said, I don't believe that the problem is nearly as bad as you claim so again we're in this abstract world of some general principle that somehow seems to be massively violated in the real world. Once in a while (less than once a year I would say) you hear someone post that they seem to have been BLed after posting a bad review. That doesn't seem like it's a massive problem to get worked up about even when one disagrees with the behavior described.  

 
I'd also note that another more useful approach would be to  point out all the ways a monger can hide while posting such reviews if they have such fears.

-- Modified on 2/13/2023 2:13:00 PM

Oh my God. I'm not asking for a primer for monger actions on what to do and whether to see the orgs.  

I'm asking YOU to say whether to YOU such actions are bad. And yet you deflect every time I ask you to make a stance. Just like when I asked you to name bad experiences publicly you refused.  

 
Say "yes I think persecuting for a bad review is not a good practice and I condemn it and I wouldnt place MY faith in it"  

Or

"No I think the practice is ok and I will still place my faith in the orgs"  

 
You saying it's not a big problem conflicts with what a better tomorrow has said so far.

Will stay out of your other discussion but on the below

"You know Legend Sara from the Bay? Hope I recall her name correctly. I TOFTTed when she came down. She understood younger guys don't like her. She had great service though. I asked if she would like me to review her since she wasn't busy. She said no. I think she was afraid I would comment about her looks and age. "

 
Is LA not like DMV where if a girl comes for a while be doesn't get any reviews, or only a couple, they are not going to be busy? I suspect that you might be right in your inference regarding her motivation about a review I wonder if that is fully justified. Yes, some likely would have not shown up due to your assessment of age and looks. But we all know looks and age assessment are very subjective. And I think very clearly there a number of guys for which looks and age are very much secondary over a pretty wide range.  

 
No reviews here is actually worse than what might be called mixed reviews (and sounds like that would be the best description of the review you would have written), and generally on par with bad reviews for many (most?) here.

I can tell you there are girls in the bay that can be booked up fully days in advance with zero reviews.

 
As I've said before, many vips sample before and while reviews may take some time to be approved, they use word of mouth to spread the info.

 
I suspect info in even the NoVa private groups propagates much faster than public reviews, because it is private. Especially if it's "negative" info.

Jensen, may I suggest that we create another thread to talk about the value, or lack thereof, of bad reviews and the best methods for providing feedback?

 
We’re burying yet another thread full of interesting and valuable content in yet another of the many, many off topic thread so that our neighborhood narcissist can feel like he’s getting the attention he deserves on his very limited selection of favorite topics.

a network of mongers using PM or email to discuss new Kgirls can often give you enough info to book early before they get busy when the reviews start flowing.  You are correct that this is what accounts for not being able to get a same-day appointment with a new girl who has no reviews.

You can certainly start a new one off my post if you think there's much to discuss. I was really just curious about the view about the LA scene with regard to the impact of mixed reviews relative to no reviews in general.

 
I'm not sure I have much else to add but if started and have something to say I would. I have nothing further to say in this thread I suspect.

Jensen went offtopic about some word I use which apparently irks him, had useyrhead join into this off topic discussion (note that I did not start it at all), then had it declared that I'm the reason for topic derailment. Hilarious.

 
Jensen, did I answer your questions?
I have. How come you're not answering mine?

Is it OK in YOUR eyes to lie in order to get money?  
Is it OK in YOUR eyes to get BLd because your honest negative review caused a loss of money?  

Not "if that's the case someone may choose to not go" bull crap. For you and yourself only, od you think these are OK from ethical point of view?  

 
I would like a condemnation of those practices or your acceptance of them. But I suspect I'm not going to get either. Just like no one in this thread has enough balls to give a provider a 4 in looks. Besides yours truly, of course.

"Shitty" practices... Did you ask PO about Ellie before booking? PO was shitty if PO misled you, but what if PO told you she was older girl and heavier and recommended a better girl? You avoided Ellie and happy with better girl. Is PO still shitty?
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I think regardless you would said PO and Ellie are shitty for using misleading pic. I can agree that practice is bad. Kgirl can blur eyes or hide face if worried about recognition.
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Is BGC org shitty to you? If yes, will you still see other BGC girls?
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First reviewer omitting 20 pounds older and 20 years older was not cool. He might have poor eyesight or didn't mind those two things. I reserve judgement until I can read details of all his reviews.
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Rebrand to "trick" Joes into seeing a Kgirl is shitty.
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Orgs never threatened me before. I just didn't want to risk losing access to lovely Kgirls whether from being blocked or causing the "company" to fold.
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I confused you when using the POV of the "company". Strictly as a "consumer", getting blocked as retaliation is shitty. I can write negative review now because I can recognize things are worse now than when I last reviewed. I will do what I can for A Better Tomorrow.

Rocket and CDL are right. The "good" new girl can still get busy with just word of mouth and repeats. OTOH, "bad" new girl may rebrand or leave town after a couple weeks if few positive or no shill reviews. They know being "new" (rebrand) can gain an uptick in business from the TOFTT mongers for the first few days. They know short tour can influence customers to visit again.
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About Sara, no review is bad for mongers who TOFTT. She used beautiful pics that were from 20+ years ago. It completely sucked for the young guy Sara knew he wanted to walk. Here I meant TOFTT as in visiting a girl I haven't seen and she has no review in town. I already knew a little about Sara before I saw her. I just needed to see her to remember she was in the Bay.
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Rocket wouldn't be wrong to condemn her. I could infer that my mixed review would be the same as a bad review to her. I think she would rather want no review so she could still get some TOFTTs in addition to people who knew her or recommended to her by POs. I was just asking her but still might be too lazy to review if she asked for it.
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From our POV as mongers, any honest review is better than none. I am just weird that I think of many things when considering to review.

when it comes to your reviews.
It's your POV!
I like to start my review the same day or day after and take another day or two to finish.
Do a spell and grammar check, all this in a word doc.
And then I can post it whenever I want.
When I'm ready to submit it, I just copy/cut & paste.

 
As far as informative, just say it like you see and remember it.
I think there is info in most of the reviews.
Whether it's good or incorrect info, IMO, I think you can get something out of it.
Especially when it's compared to other reviews and post chatter.

this part or maybe it didn't register with you.

 
*Whether a docs exam, a chef giving a meal or Uber a ride, can be a product in some people's eyes.
But I say it's the exam, meal and ride, not the human doc or chef, that would be the product.

 

I say a provider is not a product, maybe some might look at her service as a product, but I am interacting with a human being, not a product! *

 
So, just to make it clear, the service they perform can be a product.
The actual person/human being, to me is not a product!
That's how I see it!
If you look at it differently, cool, no sweat!

The smart move is to disguise yourself so you look like a VIP if you have the resources.   Once you establish yourself as a VIP with a booker, you never lose that status unless you drop out of sight completely.  Here's the plan . . . .

 
If you are limited to one Kgirl a week, then for three or four months, see girls at the same agency, giving them ALL your business, then move on to another agency, and do the same, except for one girl a month at the first agency.  If your volume will support it (i.e., two girls a week hobby level) add a third agency. You can maintain the perception of being a VIP by doing at least one appointment a month (or every other month) with each agency after the front-loading period where you established your credentials as a VIP.  Unless the booker changes, you are good in perpetuity because you demonstrated up front what you are CAPABLE of doing, but it doesn't mean you have to keep doing it to maintain your status in the eyes of the booker.  

 
If you can only manage one Kgirl a month, and you spread it around to six or eight agencies over the course of a year, you make yourself expendable in the eyes of the booker, and "beating" the VIP's is an impossible task, even with your tips.  

 
With the girls themselves, it's even easier.  I will see a girl for an hour, then two hours the next day, and two more hours 2-3 days later.  I have given her 5 hours in less than a week.  Even if I don't see her again for two months, when I do, she will regard me as a VIP.  I just have to listen to a short rant about being absent for two months, to which I respond that she seemed to be less energetic and less engaged the last time I saw her, so I thought she needed a rest.  Then I get the mother of all sessions.  Lol

When I say shitty practices I mean threats of bl for writing a bad review, the chiding of a bad review, bumping people off schedule, and misrepresentation in pics.

 
Let me try to answer your questions.

With Ellie, I knew she wasn't a looker. Ppl say I'm somehow envious of not being a vip or etc. But I have sources and am in private groups and know people where I can get info about a girl quickly. I was told by a trusted member she isn't a looker but I might like her service which is very good. I went ahead and booked and turned out service wasn't as good as I hoped and certainly it couldn't makeup for bad looks. I was prepared for bad looks but even then I was disappointed.  

 
So while I wasn't misled by the initial review because I had info from elsewhere, the average JOE would be. That's the problem.

 
Is bgc a shitty org? From management part, yes.
Their owner sits in private groups and tries to monitor all talk, and also pressure those saying negative things in private, and she has been caught red-handed when ppl baited her on purpose.  

 
The org rebrands the same chubby girl who people generally dont like the looks of, as different names and slightly change measurements and claim she is brand new.  

 
Will I continue to see their girls ? Yes, depending on the girls. At the end of the day, we fuck girls and not orgs. Someone whom I know and like, if she's at BGC I'll go see her.

I heard of you so I know you are not all talk but writing negative reviews on TER is different. I wanted to gauge how far you would go.
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I can't remember Ellie without pics. From what I knew of BGC org and based on your reason for the 4, I think you were fair.
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What you said about BCG owner is why I'd rather be UTR. Private groups also frustrated me because they didn't help Joes.
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I will go silence and get VIP to study yours and LA reviews. I hope SoCal will see my reviews as helpful when I ramp up again.

I gave this girl a three in looks, so shes got Ellie beat, sadly enough (if you can say that).

 
As far as how far Im willing to go, not sure about the q. In terms of reviewing, as far as needed on my scale? I stand by my opinions and will defend them to deаth.

We seem to have exhausted both the original topic as well as Rocket’s usual tangential hijack.

END OF MESSAGE