Since this topic came up on this board recently, I thought I'd copy/paste the Love Goddess' views here. The Love Goddess is a sexologist/therapist who mods the 'Erotic Highway' board. Brilliant post by LG. --z
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Re: i wanna know why we are all so touchy about rates Posted by TheLoveGoddess, 4/15/2009 6:51:47 PM (44 reads)
...When you sell the right to access your body in a way that is
a) secretive
b) stigmatized
c) emotionally demanding
you'd better be touchy about someone trying to negotiate your rates! I'm sorry, but this is NOT the same as providing the services of a plumber, carpenter or even attorney or physician. You are providing THE PRIVILEGE OF USING YOUR BODY in a way that most people would only consider if they were in a mutually desirous relationship. Hence, this special circumstance means that you, the provider, needs to control the entire procedure, from start to finish, or else you'll end up feeling used and abused - simple as that.
Now, the procedure begins with the price tag - a set fee for a set of contracted events. If your reviews state BBBJ, kissing, anal, AND a qualitative measure of affection, enthusiasm and being exquisitely attuned to the sexual needs of this complete stranger, then bargaining and negotiating the price completely violates the trust that you put in this person not to deviate from the program and possibly harm or hurt you, whether psychologically or physically.
Negotiating is experienced by the provider as a VIOLATION OF THE INITIAL TERMS and thus a potential violation of her body. And no one in this business wants to be violated or taken advantage of in any way. The provider wants to feel calm and in control, knowing that things will proceed according to the sexual scripting that is offered to the client. Paradoxically, that's why street prostitutes have so many more rules about not kissing, not touching here or there - their fee is low, so access is low. When the fee goes up, access goes up. Imagine the difference between going on a 5-day jaunt with a hobbyist who has access almost 24/7 during that time, compared with a street worker who sells services á la carte. All she does is negotiate - touch here, it's going to cost you this much more, etc. Even gals on Craigslist may engage in the same pattern. But a well-reviewed provider who is a professional at providing "bounded authenticity" [Elizabeth Bernstein's term, not mine,] will feel instant distrust at negotiations and hence a reluctance to go further.
I think it's a sign of health that you feel this way. You value your self, your body, your ego and your boundaries far too much to let anything interfere with your professional objectives. Let your "sensitivity" be your best guide - if he starts bargaining and negotiating, close shop. You may make less money that day, but you'll feel better in the long run.
It's a fucking business, like I always say,
The Love Goddess
Such a crock of shit that I puked halfway through the article and discontinued reading!!!!!
how many buildings and highways are constructed in our great industrialized society?????? Yet, from the out-set the Engineers, Developers, Architect's etc.., can with a great degree of certainty estimate the number of labour's who will sacrifice their lives to complete the project, for the greater good! Aren't their bodies being violated? Don't tell us about someone feeling violated because their fee is being negioiated, that is capitalism!!!! Get over it! Leave your white anglo saxon protestant etho's out to pasture!
My fees are questioned/negioated every single day in my line of work. The only time that I get offended is when someone belives that because the trade my be of a physical nature that negioiating is taboo???? What an absolute crock. No one is being forced to do anything, just say "no" if you don't like the offer....Z- get a life!!!!!!!
Luke, there are risks in many workplaces, but I don't agree with your analogy.
When I walk through a provider's door, she doesn't know if I'm an angel or a demon. There's the threat of violence, the threat of disease, the threat of psychological harm. That's not a normal part of a construction worker's day (I used to frame houses back-in-the-day).
And consider: a provider gives herself over to me, completely. A precious gift when you think about it--a woman cannot give me anything more. And I always try to remember...this woman is someone's sister, daughter, mother. She is loved by someone out there. Take care, --z
Well,
I think fairly extreme (and sincerely expressed) views of both sides of this question are presented here; The LG is quite an accomplished wordsmith, for sure, and I find wisdom in her point of view, here. Bully for the Provider, without whom we'd...well, I don't know WHAT many of us would do!
On the other hand, Luke's got somewhat of a point, as well--any offer you find unacceptable as a Provider, you don't have to accept or perform for, correct?
I tend to equate the question of "negotiation" of a Provider's fee to be a lot like arguments of politics, religion, or any somewhat philosophical topic open for conversation: look between the two extreme points of view, and there in the middle, you may find the heart of the matter, or even the truth:
You may convince a "new" Provider to come down a bit on the per-hour rate, or other denominators, man, but...if she does, chances are (and I've had at least this much experience in a few years) that she's just as willing to limit your experience, and/or total rewards of your compensation. Am I making sense? You're in control of precisely how many dollars you throw, but she, in turn, is perfectly in control of your experience...and most Providers with more than 18 months' experience know it's so. I believe the working axiom is "Bargain at your own expense." No classical reference here...it's an Uncle Bobbo Original!
But again, good to see responses on both sides; that's what we do here, no? Gotta love the Dallas boards...good stuff from everybody involved. Glad we're all here, for sure.
Okay,
Bobbo
Just to clarify: a provider is not selling a commodity or a traditional service. She is selling her body. And when you try to bid down or lowball it, that can only be insulting. Unlike most economic transactions, a provider cannot separate herself (and her sense of self-worth) from the rate.
I think that's the point the Love Goddess was trying to make. And as buyers, we have the right to simply decline. I'll agree with Luke on one important point: market forces still exist in a black market. If a provider over-prices herself, that reality will soon become evident. --z
Gentlemen, When a man employs the services of a provider, isn't there risk for both parties? Specifically, Z mentioned he could be an angel or a demon, well the provider and her "agency" can be the same. And, we know absolutely nothing about the provider. I watched an episode of "cat-house" on cable tv and negotiating was the norm. It was done tactfully and respectfully and neither person seemed offended. Dennis Hoff, seems to have his finger on the pulse "no pun intend." Several provider's "Alana" post different prices for various cities and her home city is the most expensive! No consistency in price, yet we offend a provider by asking or negotiating? I'm sorry Z, but perhaps my societal views more closely resemble that of many European countries where sex is view as merely that. They have evolved beyond our puritanical origins we would be wise to do the same. Luke
Luke: I haven't seen 'CatHouse' so I cannot comment on it specifically. But in LG's post, she mentions how streetwalkers must negotiate all-the-time. That may also hold true in a brothel if a provider is competing with 20 other providers under one roof.
But I'm not sure the above is relevant to us, considering the providers that we normally see. As TER members on the Dallas board, I hope you guys aren't trolling for streetwalkers, and a brothel like the BunnyRanch would get shut down quickly in Dallas (and surrounding areas). I only see P411 independent providers, and I'm sure you guys are equally selective.
From LG: "a well-reviewed provider who is a professional...will feel instant distrust at negotiations and hence a reluctance to go further".
I think LG is describing the type of providers that we normally see. --z
-- Modified on 4/18/2009 12:26:23 PM
-- Modified on 4/18/2009 12:32:43 PM
Fellas,
Leave it to me to try and decide who's got the most enlightened stance here, but...I can not.
I mean, Hell--while I agree with Lance's "why not negotiate" stance, I know from experience that the best Providers just DO NOT do it (and they won't upsell you, either). I'm not going to profess to worship them like Zangari (or whatever you call that level of extreme respect that you're exhibiting, brother), but I'll also insist that there's a certain quality of self respect evident in what Love Goddess was saying...
I'll say again: I believe the ideal approach lies in the middle. There are people in this business that you'll bargain with (and you'd better: Providers, like other service-based operatives, have both competition and the market-at-large to be attuned to, and the most successful ones will). On the other hand, the better Providers I have known have transcended that part of the process.
When it comes down to price, though, either you want to obtain the service, or you don't; that goes hand-in-hand with the Provider's professionalism, though--either they want to engage the consumer, or not.
Of course, again, the more experienced hands all will attest that there's no point in negotiation, on the upper echelons of the Hobby; that has all been figured out for us, no?
Okay,
Bobbo
well said. Funny, none of the ladies chimed in on our topic? Carrie, Nina? Perhaps, they were making better use of their time...Luke
negotiations and why the donation is what it is - is not something most of the ladies want to discuss - the upscale ladies know what they want they set their tab and the type of man they want to see generally does not question it - I have never asked for a discount... in a rare instance of a lady telling me of her 'varied' fee structure and discount offers - I have said, 'well, what about me?' she brought it up first
Any time a lady gives a hint of 'different' prices - she's going to invite 'that' kind of client... not 100% but a lot bargainers and disrespectful guys... .02