An open letter intended as an initiation of dialog, not a flame:

In the age of widespread hacks and post-Ashley Madison, I think this is a critical issue for all of us.

Like many folks, I read the absurd rant from splitz1239 and and the ensuing comments below, and it got me thinking: if you can receive an abundant amount of verification info that realistically well protects you and the girls, and also still protects the client's privacy, why is it that you require personal info, employment information etc?

Seriously, the argument that you do need this info doesn't make any sense.

What does that info tell you that protects anyone?   Specifically, what *exactly* does employment info, for example, tell you?  

You indicate that you absolutely will not approve new clients unless they reveal to you critical personal information about themselves like their full name and the identity of their employer.  

*------Yes, we live in a society of free will, and you ultimately have a right to require this if you want, and the customer has the right to refuse and part ways.------*

But, as an interested observer and member of this community, I have to wonder: why do you have this policy?  Why do you so want this personal info on all your clients???

 
THE CRUX OF THE MATTER:

I understand that some agencies are lacking in security themselves and overall professionalism.  But, if you get an 'application' from a guy who for example has 8 reviews on TER going back 5 years, is whitelisted, is P411, and / or offers maybe four different references from indies who themselves have long standing reviews, and also offers references from several different agencies, but that's not enough, it really makes you wonder.  What the hell are you after?

I mean, based on the above, you will know if this guy is a cop vs a legit hobbyist, and you will know if he is hygienic, on time and always pays in full, and if he is nice with the girls.  

Beyond that, what the hell right do you have to ask for all this.  Seriously  It's not like we demand your personal info or that of the girls.

 
MAYA

Maya is notorious at Boston International for demanding this info and lording it over people's heads, threatening them.  She even posted the full driver's license of one of her own girls on her website. Talk about outing someone!  Very cruel and nasty!  

Maybe you say Maya is a one-off bad apple that unfairly casts all agency ladies like you in a bad light.  Okay.  But if she can do it, how do we know for sure that somebody else won't.

 
REALITY

And if you promise to be careful with our info, how do we know the same is true of your assistant.  Or your successor?  Or how do we know you won't be hacked.  The NSA itself cannot even fully protect itself.  Or, God forbid, how do we know this info won't come out of some law enforcement action that befalls a given agency?  The customer can never be sure of this.    

Maybe you say that 'If the guys are dumb enough to give me the info, then why not!'  I admit that on one level, that argument is hard to disagreee with.  Obviously I think that anybody who shares this info is a total idiot, especially post Ashley Madison!  But man, that's a shitty way of conducting business and one's self.  

If, God forbid, this info fell into the wrong hands and ruined some lives as a function of me requiring it, I would absolutely feel like shit.  Yes, the idiot willingly gave it over and "did this to themselves by doing so" but I would still feel like shit.

Thoughts?

 
Sincerely,

Rock

Hi Rock,

If a client has p-411 and or a bunch of reviews and references, then I don't require work info, however they MUST show ID at the time of the appointment and the name on the application must match the name on the ID.

If they have no p-411, no references, no reviews then YES I require work info.

God forbid a client goes crazy and physically hurts a girl. I need to know where to let the authorities find him.

Once you are an established client and receive a special RSG ID  then all of your info is destroyed. EVERYTHING!!
(having stuff on my computer will hurt me just as much as it could hurt you if it got in the wrong hands)
This is also the reason I don't use cell phones as my business phones. I also don't text, (You can't text my space lines anyway as they are connected to regular phones not cells.) I also do not answer any questions, or make appointments via an online form or with emails. The less paper trail the better for everyone involved.

I take everyone's privacy seriously (including the girls) but I also need to have safety for the girls as well. I seriously don't even know the real names of any of the girls because again once they are hired, after their first day that info is destroyed.

Yes I am not going to lie, I do have a client list, however if it got in the wrong hands, good luck trying to figure out who anyone really is by their codes.  

Oh and I would NEVER out a girl no matter what. I can't say the same for other services that threaten to call the girls friends and family if they leave to go to another service. (I won't mention any names but I will say that it is NOT Mya at BI)

Trust me, I wouldn't still be here after almost 19 years if I was stupid and didn't do my best to keep my girls, my clients and myself safe.

Jill

Very nicely said Jill. Especially that last paragraph. Guy's,  going on 20 years. Enough said.

Xoxoxoxox Jill........

On a side note:

I've used BI's services for five years now--they were the first agency I ever used and most of my ATFs are there. My experience as a client has been top notch. I think their professionalism is the biggest reason why they consistently have top-rated ladies, including providers who charge in the $5-600 range as independents. And it also explains why both their employees and their clients keep returning.

I sometimes see people putting BI down and I don't get it. They have girls who are always beautiful and willing to please. (I've been with almost everybody on their current roster and only had one bad experience two years ago.) They always host in nice, 4-star hotels in downtown Boston--no taking an Uber 15 miles to some fleabitten hole in Waltham. And almost universally, their girls are nice and educated. I don't want to sound like a snob but I know that I won't ever find any trace of ratchetness in a BI girl. And I can't think of any other agency saying "Shirajbhai, don't go see this girl because you guys aren't a good match". I fucking love Maya and Sophia. Maya is personally responsible for giving me more joy than any living creature except my cats.

I have given my personal info to BI and BAD and would do so again. I called Jill a few times a few years ago, when I was greener about the hobby and didn't have a fulltime job, and she wouldn't accept my references. Now I know why and I respect her decision.

So ...

1) Doesn't work if the client goes crazy on the first visit

2) A fake ID to match your TER / P411 handle costs maybe $50

Part of the concern from the client side isn't so much what you might do, but what someone who hacks into your computer / phones / system might do.  20 years is great, but companies that employ whole teams of far more sophisticated folks to work on cyber security get hacked every day, and that is a recent thing not a 20 year old problem, so being around 20 years gives you a well deserved great reputation for running an agency, but not for preventing hackers.

Just curious, have you ever had a client go crazy where the ID has helped?

Have you ever heard of a client going crazy that the people involved think would have been prevented by an ID check?  Crazy is crazy, something that results in yelling and commotion in a hotel is pretty risky ID or not, so maybe someone who goes crazy isn't deterred by an ID check.

After seeing the BI outing and the Maine thing, I decided that personal ID is just a non starter for me.  Nothing against people who want them, but I just won't ever be a client.

The funny thing are the huge numbers of people (agencies and indys) who say they check ID and don't

I hear good things from BI from a lot of people, but they won't set you up without personal info, so I will never use them.  I decided that before they posted the drivers license of one of their women, after they did that it kind of validated my decision.

No problem with their choice to require ID, and I suspect they have no problem with my choice to not be a client.  Obviously they get a lot of business regardless, but I've had maybe 100-150 appointments in the Boston area over the last few years, some of which would happily have been with folks at BI, except for that policy.

Glad it works for you, the downside just doesn't work for me.

I still am completely mystified why someone with double digits of references and okays from numerous well known local providers is still considered a "he might go nuts all of a sudden" risk.  I mean, the hotel clerk or the taxi driver might go nuts too, and we don't have his ID ..

I agree with Shirajbhai,
I love both Mya at BI and Amber at BAD.
They are both professional business women who run a great service. I always feel confident giving and getting references from both ladies.

Jill

If a guy has a TER review and a reference from another agency why do need his work info or any info for that matter. What if a girl robs him then what? You discarded her info as well.If you obtain his work info then you will keep it along with all of his personal info in the event he goes bad. Otherwise what would be the sense of getting the info in the first place if you can't go back to it if needed. Other then a very serious case your not going to call the police. I know there have been assault cases where both on men and woman and neither call anyone, I know I wouldn't. Ashley Madison was hacked on a large scale and I know a few of the agency sites have been hacked out here and there is no telling what info was obtained as a result. In short I don't buy the "we  destroy everyone's info" . Sorry just my humble opinion.

Well said dude  

I love my cats too, almost nothing as nice as reading a good book with a cat curled up on top of you. I actually predate the time when BI and BAD started asking for personal info, so I've no problems there. What I find a bit annoying is when agencies advertise on DC and say they'll see anyone with 1+ references (for ex.) and then when you get in contact they say they don't accept DC

If your handle is based on P G Wodehouse's Psmith novels, then high fives!!!

Lots of reviews p, references, oks etc certainly speaks to stability and pattern of behavior.

My thought exactly.

I think people who require ID are trying to deter bad behavior (by having ID), as opposed to having bad behavior happen and then get resolved by using the ID information to send police around.

Not at all clear to me that the deterrence actually works, but it might, and you can't be sure one way or the other (even if an agency still has bad clients after checking IDs, it might have many more bad clients if it didn't check IDs).

On the other hand, while I've heard stories of bad clients in my travels, I suspect that the really criminally bad types (the types that an ID lets you send police or someone to see them, i.e. assault, weapons, etc) are pretty rare and the types that are obnoxious, flatulent, short change you, maybe even steal money, or things like that should be weeded out by the bunch of reviews and OKs in their record.

If a client steals money by accumulating 20 good OKs and reviews and then stealing (and having to switch handles, start over, get a new phone, etc), it seems like a pretty inefficient way to rip people off ...

When you release your personal  information to someone it becomes their information and they can do with it as they please. If you think it's safe in thier hands then your all set. Good luck

Jill, Not to further muck up this issue, but how would you handle employment verification the recently retired? If you were given the number of their former workplace and asked whomever answered the phone, would a response such as  
' He no longer works here, or he retired, be sufficient? If not, what else would be acceptable for verification?
                       Jim

Any time you call, your info is right there. Nobody in the business is anonymous. No reputable provider sees a stranger, even if they don't tell they don't check up on you, they do. Only the crack heads on BP fly blind, the girls who get busted are the ones who answer the "hobby phone" numbers. Anybody who thinks they're anonymous is mistaken.

Having someone's cell phone number is one thing having a persons work and personal info is an entirely different matter. FYI a few of the sites out here were cracked and who knows what info was extracted. Further more in the event you get a agency busted the owner is about to get time you don't think she gives up her "black book" to get out. Fiice gave her book up and so did the Zumba girl. If these owners get busted trust me they all become "crackheads on BP" and give it up to the popo.  

I'm sure that someone could manage to pierce the veil, as it were, but with a "hobby" cell phone (cash, no ID, disposable), TOR browser and anonymous email account, I suspect one can be pretty anonymous vs the resources available to agencies and indys.  Lots of OKs and TER history, but all under a handle that is pretty disconnected from real life coordinates.  And, yes, lots of people are happy to see me (see "lots of OKs" above).

My vulnerability is that once I start to get to know someone, I share more than I should, but that's a judgment call and a risk I'm prepared to take.  Personal real world coordinates, of any kind, before meeting or even to have on file in someone's phone / laptop / "secure" cloud server isn't a risk I'm prepared to take.

By the way, LE has tools available to crack most "secure" cloud repositories if they file the appropriate paperwork, and something like a laptop with an encrypted ZIP file is just a joke.


-- Modified on 10/18/2015 3:28:48 AM

Real first and last names, wives names, kids names,  addresses,  work info and have never once had the slightest inclination to use it for malicious intentions. Of course I don't write this shit down and I dispose of all calendar pages even though I write things down as a doctor's appointment or something of the like. My cell phone is not even attached to my name and cannot be traced back to me. I think if everyone does what they are supposed to we will all be safe. This is the reason that I am not newbie friendly.  Some dude with zero history in the hobby can dream up a career,  attach a number to it and have a woman answer the phone .  BOOM I am going to the clink.  Not willing to take that risk!  I don't blame these agencies for requesting information.  How else can they be sure someone isn't the fuzz.  It's not always a matter of someone just being a clown.

Craigslist killer, ie  what Jill said.  No reputable person will see you anonymously, safety is at stake.  People hide their true intentions and are less apt to hurt providers if they are able to be held accountable for their actions.  Yes, people screen you even when you think they haven't, like Bob said.  This is whining, and not caring about the safety of everyone.  How many people have told you that you are at a greater risk of being hurt yourself or compromised if you see people that do not screen or have no standards.  Let us know what happens, or better, don't post when something happens, please.  Hopefully you won't take anyone else with you on your way down.

I wanted to let this discussion percolate a bit before coming back to it.  

Frankly, I had hoped for a more involved and thoughtful discussion, to be honest.  I got a very thoughtful honest response from Jill, which I greatly appreciate.  

I will say that I really had hoped for a similar rational response from Amber at Boston Asian Dolls.  Sadly, nothing.  

I got some honest response from hobbyists, some shills from BI sycophants (I am talking to you Shirajbhai), then some impassioned responses from some ladies, who I don't think fully understood the basis of my post: what is it specifically that asking for personal information provides to you in terms of added security.  

Girls (very understandably) want security, and they think that by asking for personal info, they get that.  But if somebody's intent on ripping you off, they are just gonna lie up front!!!!!  

The only way to know if this person is legit john just looking to simply pay for services of a good time, as opposed to a robber or worse, is to vet via references, and ideally: many of them over a lengthy period of time, TER reviews and from legit providers.  

YES, this engenders a chick-and-egg problem (i.e. how do you get dates if you don't have references, and how do you get references if you can't get dates). I am not sure how to solve that problem -I guess the guy has to work his way up from lower level indies on Backpage who are less discriminating.  

If the guy is gonna rob you, he's gonna lie up front and rob you the second he gets into the room.  The same thing for a murderer.  

As to the notion that it's better to have the guy's info to go after him if he flips out and hurts the girl, well that doesn't do anything for THAT GIRL who gets robber or hurt, does it???  

Maybe the thinking is that because the guy has the the knowledge that this girl/agency has his info, and therefore, with that in mind, he won't flip out / hurt her / rob her etc like he would if she/they didn't have that info.  But that's absurd: it show's a level of rationality and forethought that's absent when somebody just goes berserk.  If somebody's gonna go berserk, they go berserk.  Thankfully this very rarely happens to normal sane adults.

In the end, it still makes zero sense to me as to why anyone would think that asking for personal info up front provides any security.  Nobody has been able to explain specifically what this gives the girl or how it protects her.  

Finally, I notice today that another guy has been outed, in a bit way, for using the services of an escort service:

http://www.cnn.com/2015/10/23/us/louisville-ex-assistant-resigns-from-umkc/index.html

Jill,  

That is a very circumspect and thoughtful answer.  Thank you.

I respect the fact that you have been in business successfully for so long.  You are somewhat of a patriarch for the biz in the modern internet age, at least for this region of the country.  You are probably one of the world's first proprietors to leverage the internet and have an escort agency of any size and critical mass entirely based on the internet.  So I greatly respect what you have to say.  

No paper trails -brilliant.  No personal info retained -smart, thank God.  

I will however respectfully disagree with you on the notion that having personal info provides security up front.  It is my opinion that this provides zero (if they gonna rob or do worse, they will lie about their name, place of work etc).  And if they randomly go berserk during the appointment, well having the personal info does nothing for that girl then and there.  And if the thinking is that the guy won't go berserk this time because he knows you or anyone has his personal info, well I think that requires a level of forethought and rationality that is by definition absent in somebody who goes berserk.  Thankfully, sane rational adults rarely if ever just go berserk.

I think the best way to ensure the clients are real deal johns (and decent guys at that), showered and just looking to (fully) pay for a good time, is by vetting via extensive referrals from legit providers and agencies.  That's the only way to be most assured.  

But thank you nonetheless for the honest earnest response.

Roc

When's the last time you been in there.  Same was true for Circuit City.

But let me ask you: how do you look past the fact that this woman, who you may or may not be (every one of your reviews going back five years is for all BI girls, and they are primarily all 9s and 10s -just sayin'), posted the driver's license of one of her girls up on the internet, for like a week.  

That's beyond despicable horrific.  Even if there was a money problem.  It's called a cost of doing business.

You may say well she didn't do anything like that to me.

But if a thief comes to your (not ratched) house for dinner, and does not steal the silverware, does that make her not a thief?

BTW: I had to look up what 'ratchedness' means.  You really should hide your racist tendencies better.  And something tells me that not every last one of the hundreds of girls who have worked for BI (or any other agency or business) have assiduously avoided Walmart & Family Dollar, are all white and well educated etc.

Take your shilling somewhere else.  

Sincerely,

Rock

If it's pre-meditated, then it's pre-meditated, and they lie about the personal info up front.  

Think about it.

I am sorry Bob, I know you have been a legit up-standing reputable respected contributor here for a very long time, a good member of this community, but how old are you?  Seriously?

Technology has evolved rapidly in all directions.  You should check it out.

I call from a phone that has zero (0.0000) relation to me (bought it for cash from a store that has no cameras on me, pay for minutes with cash - and I use that phone for my (anonymous) ISP here).

Everything else I do is from an anonymous web-based email account that I access via anonymous ISP that has no relation to me.  I access no real-world phones or personal email, web pages etc via this / these devices.  You do not need TOR if there is NO personal info of any type involved.  That's the trick.

And by my lifestyle, I move around a lot, so I access via a great many different cell towers.

I can assure you that I am totally anonymous to all the many ladies and agencies I visit, and they are anonymous to me as well.  I wouldn't have it any other way.

Rock

"I don't blame these agencies for requesting information.  How else can they be sure someone isn't the fuzz."

Answer: you cannot be truly 100% sure about anything in life (except death).

The way to be *most* sure is by asking for many references from legit agencies and indies, and also seeing a nice lengthy list of TER reviews going back years.

That in my opinion is by far and away the best and really the only way to be 'sure' -at least to the extent possible, which I think approaches 100% for all real world intents and purposes.  

Roc

Dinahmight, although I respect the passion you demonstrate, I think your response makes zero sense, and it appears to have been written by someone who hasn't read the thread.

To recap:  

1) Yes we understand safety is at stake.

2) The Craigslist killer would not have been stopped by asking for info up front.  He was intent on robbing these girls and would lie to anyone who asked for his info up front.  And I am sure that, ironically, if he felt threatened by the fact that these girls knew his name, he would have killed them to silence them.

3) Yes some (sick) people hide their true intentions if they intend to do evil, and they are going to do that up front if they have to.  There is nothing to stop someone from lying over the phone/email/web-form/text about what their true name and place of work is if in fact they intend to do evil!!!!  

IN FACT, this 'information' does you harm because it gives you a ***false*** sense of security.

4) You seem to be of the opinion that if some guy is inclined to go berserk during an appointment, he in fact won't go berserk this time because he knows you or someone has his personal info.  Well I think that requires a level of forethought and rationality that is by definition absent in somebody who goes berserk.  Thankfully, sane rational adults rarely if ever just go berserk.

5) As to screening based upon info, it's a farce.  See my response to Bob.  

6) This is not whining.  I care deeply for the safety of everyone, including that of myself.  

In short, I disagree with everything you have said because it is all based upon very faulty analysis and outright ignorance; it says nothing logical.  Sorry for the frank nature of my blunt response; I am just being honest after giving your response some real thought.

Rock

Rock,

I agree with almost everything you said, but I think you may have misunderstood one aspect (or maybe I just misunderstood your response).

Some (Jill et al) feel that verified personal information increases safety for the provider.  You outlined good reasons why that isn't necessarily true, but also said "he can just lie about it".  That assumes that the personal info is not verified.

Verification can include calling a company, emailing to/from a company email, looking up in a public name/address/phone directory, or no doubt a bunch of other ways, possibly coupled with an ID check at the time of the appointment.  Assuming I'm not "John Doe" at "John Doe Consulting" ([email protected], a domain I created yesterday), work verification is fairly robust.  Yes, it can be hacked, socially or via technical means, but that requires a fair amount of effort.  I won't get into the ins and outs of how to hack each verification method, it sounds like you get it and I don't particularly want to provide a roadmap for others.

And, of course, the ID check at the time of appointment verifies that the personal info provided really matches the person in question, but it is too late to do anything about it if he goes nuts at that point.

So, if one thinks that having verified true personal info in advance deters bad behavior, then perhaps it makes sense to acquire it.  You raise reasons (which I agree with) why this doesn't really deter bad behavior, especially crazy / berserk bad behavior, but "he just lies about it" isn't really one of those reasons.

Thanks for your thoughtful responses ... it is an interesting issue and while I still don't understand the logic behind the personal info thing, I do respect people's choices to run their business using rules of their choice.

I continue to find it amazing that people with anything at all to lose provide personal info.  One interesting example of that for me was the time a provider emailed her client base using cc: instead of bcc:, which included a whole bunch of people (apparently) at their work email addresses and real names.  Youch

no_personal_info,

Yes my fault for not better clarifying what I meant.

By lying, I mean that anyone can search the public website of any Boston company (Company X) that has some sort of staff directory on line, find some the name of some guy named Joe Smith for example, and then email or call and agency and say yeah my name is Joe Smith and I work at Company X.  

The agency / woman can call Company X and ask if Joe Smith indeed works there, which of course he does, but who cares, this is a rouse.

The guy gets initially 'verified' and is allowed to visit the girl, told to go to this hotel and this room number.  

Once in the room, instead of producing a picture ID, he produces a knife or a gun and robs the girl.

Asking for personal info in an attempt to 'verify' provides the agency / lady with nothing because if somebody wants to do evil, they will just lie up front in order to get into the room.  In fact, it's worse than nothing -it gives a false sense of security.  Well we verified this guy, and Joe Smith does in fact work at Company X.  Yeah, well, who cares!!??  

The best way to vet potential clients is via extensive referrals from existing providers who themselves are clearly legit (website and long list of client reviews going back years -ideally), and if the prospective client himself has reviews on TER going back years, and (ideally) you have the guy PM you from that handle -so you know he's not just referencing somebody else's reviews.

If I am running an agency, I care shit less what somebody tells me what their name and place of work are.  Show me some fucking quality references from legit ladies.  That's all I am gonna care about.

I respectfully submit that folks asking for personal info are using sub-optimal (i.e. flawed) logic or they have ulterior motives (i.e. Mya at BI, or that lady who just 'wrote' a book (i.e. monetized) and thereby outed the coach at the Louisville basketball program).

Roc

Rock,

Thanks for the reply.  We agree much more than we disagree!

Based on your scenario, agree that getting a name by itself adds little value.  Also, using "employment info" only when P411 / DC are not available, little value for reasons already discussed, especially if you hijack a person's "hobby name" and then hijack a [different] real world name from an unsuspecting guy.

I have heard that some folks verify by calling work number and speaking to you, or emailing you at work, or getting an email from you at work.  While not 100% reliable, these methods go pretty far in connecting you (the person setting up an appointment) to real world coordinates for you (the person who answers the phone / replies to the email at work), especially if "work" is a well known company with an easily identifiable email domain name.  If you did this, plus P411/DC/TER history, plus a PM from P411/DC/TER, you'd be getting pretty confident that you had a good trail of bread crumbs from hobbyist MyTERName = Joe Smith at Company X.

I still think it is all irrational & overkill, for many of the reasons you've gone through, and agree 100% that the best predictor of a safe encounter is having double digits of P411 or TER references and OKs for previous safe encounters, coupled with reasonable confidence that you aren't hijacking someone else's history (a hack for a different thread, and one that real world ID doesn't affect one way or the other).

What I find amusing & a little hard to take are the folks who swear that it all makes sense, and that I "don't care about safety", and that I "won't be seen by anyone decent", when in fact I see many people that are definitely in the respected tier (however you define that, folks with great web presence and dozens of 9 & 10 reviews are presumably in it) and it is all just fine for everyone concerned, thank you very much.  When I need references, they are invariably glowing, but none of them know my personal info and never will (just as I don't know theirs except in a couple of special cases).  Which is all as it should be.

Of course, YMMV, and again people can use whatever rules they want, no problem, their choice.

Anyway, probably beaten to death ...

No_Personal_Inf