See my explanation of the relevent articles of the Unifom Code of Military Justice (UCMJ) above. I think it addresses your questions.
-- Modified on 3/21/2003 9:22:39 AM
I have just heard that ground engagement in Iraq has begun.
As a former member of the 2nd Infantry and 82nd Airborne Divisions, regardless of your opinion on the war in Iraq, I ask that we all remember to pray for those special young men and women serving our country in uniform. Theirs is not to question the order, theirs is to obey it and today we send sons, daughters, husbands, wives, brothers and sisters into harms way.
Pray for a speedy end to hostilities with a minimum loss of life on both sides.
Thank You
-- Modified on 3/20/2003 11:32:55 AM
I agree. This is not a time for us to be bickering about whats right and wrong but to pray for those men and women who are protecting our country.
That is one statement I think we all can agree on .
Amen Magnum......Amen
then I suggest you NOT agree to see people and then NOT confirm. Is this part of your alleged disability..please post it all and let's discuss your no show online babe..
I agree that we pray, or hope, for "a speedy end to hostilities with a minimum loss of life on both sides." But I disagree strongly that "Theirs is not to question the order, theirs is to obey it". Why cannot they question the order? Isn't this a Citizen Army? How can you demand thoughtful men and women obey all orders without question? What if they are ordered to commit atrocities or war crimes? Shouldn't they be questioning such orders? War crimes and atrocities have been committed even by American officers and soldiers in past wars. Defense Sec. Rumsfeldt has just stated, as a matter of fact, that any Iraqi official or soldier that commits war crimes will be held responsible for their acts. And that the excuse of "I was just following orders" will not be recognized. Don't you think this standard should apply to American soldiers? Or do you disagree with Sec. Rumsfeldt?
Shouldn't our citizen soldiers be questioning orders now more than ever when the vast majority of the world is questioning this possibly misguided war? How much thoughtful questioning is allowed the citizen in uniform?
The point is, they did not create the political atmosphere that led to the war. They did not fail at diplomacy or negotiations, but they are the ones that will make right through force, what others were unable to prevent through diplomacy. The warrior is not responsible for the war, only the adjudication of the war.
Do a search on 'enlistment' and 'oath', read it, if you don't understand it, please email me privately. I'm sure others aren't interested in the argument that you and I will no doubt have.
Not to nit-pick, but Judges adjudicate, warriors prosecute war. Furthermore, I am quite sure that the U.C.M.J. (Uniform Code of Military Justice) allows for refusal of illegal orders. However, there is absolutely nothing being asked of our all volunteer force that could be construed as illegal. I applaud the fact that our courageous President and the admirable British PM Tony Blair have the resolve to risk their respective political futures to clean up the mess created by eight years of self serving demagoguery and duplicity that put our nation and the west at risk for international terror and the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction by rogue states. It is refreshing to see that there are still statesmen who act on principal and well reasoned conviction in contrast to those who govern by polls and blow with the prevailing political winds.
I can see that you never served in the military.
They are not to question orders because they agreed not to as a condition of their employment. Remember, this is an all volunteer force. No one currently in service for the US is there against their will. As a public sector company would hold an employee in breach of their employment agreement, and exercise their remedy as specified in the agreement, so must our armed forces.
Thanks for the responses guys, but you still have not answered the basic question: Should a soldier question orders by his superiors? For example, if an officer orders the soldier to shoot women and children, should that order be obeyed? This is not a uncommon question. Questionable orders are given on the battlefield all the time in all wars. Does the Oath the soldier takes extend to all orders? I don't think these are unimportant boring questions, do you?
See my post above. The UCMJ is quite specific in outlining what constitutes an illegal order and exempts American military personnel from any obligation to follow such an order. The UCMJ was implemented in the 1950's in response to the moral and ethical questions that arose for the military establishment from the experience of the Nuremberg trials. The wording addresses the "I was only following orders" defense that was used during those trials and reflects the sort of soul searching that one would expect from the responsible professional military of a democracy. Your question, in my view, is quite valid and, indeed, very important. I am surprised and disappointed that more veterans on this board couldn't give you a better, more informed answer to a perfectly legitimate question. I certainly remember the history and intent of the UCMJ being drilled into me in bootcamp. I thought then, and I think now that it was an elegant and thoughtful response to the ethical dilemma that Nazi atrocities and the complicity of German professional military in them posed for democracies and their professional military establishments.
-- Modified on 3/21/2003 9:07:40 AM
Hi, Thank you for your posts. My original post was simply intended as a tribute to the men and women charged with prosecuting (thanks for clearing that up) the war. As a reminder that these men and women deserve our prayers for a safe return home.
I only wanted to say that regardless of what you think of the causes of this war, those fighting it deserve our support, our prayers and our respect. I did not and do not intend to get into a political discussion of a soldiers right to question the legitimacy or the morality of this war or any other war.
I was only trying to separate the warrior from the diplomat and point out that all too often, the warrior suffers the consequences of failed diplomacy.
Hermes..let me take it back to real world scenarios..when given orders to implement....I carried them out and expected my men to do it without question... for the most part all orders are those that should be followed...if you have a situation like we had with Lt. Calley in VietNam who was by the way acting on his own and was not dealing with a full deck and someone gives an order to shoot"women and children"....there is absolutely NO doubt that any soldier should question those orders....and if that is the only example you can bring up I would say question on...
To question things like every day battle decisions like getting in a Huey gunship and strafe an enemy village...I personally would not question that as there is a simple phenom that goes on in war..kill or be killed...atrocites are one thing and should be dealt with accordingly but I dare say that any atrocities committed in any war are far and few when it comes to US troops.
It's just like in society we will have bad apples even in the military but for the most part (99.9%)are good men and women following orders from good men and women who adhere to an oath and follow a certain code..which by the way stays a part of who one is for the rest of their life.
Take care and stay safe
OR...always proude to be..... 1stCav Airmobile
I clearly answered "the basic question" however, I will again. No.
In your example following this question, you are either making assumptions I'm simply not willing to concede, or you are hypothesizing a situation that has, and VERY likely never will happen in US history. Perhaps you’re the victim of excessive Hollywood influence. Please sight any specific instance that a US officer has ordered troops to commit a war crime. It’s NEVER HAPPENED!
However, in several past wars, women and children HAVE been armed by our enemies, and killed US troops when they let their guard down. A soldiers’ sworn duty is to NOT question even an order that on the surface, appears to be wrong, and assume the officer who gave the order had a solid reason for doing so. Questioning this order in your example would have resulted in many US soldiers’ deaths in both Korea and Viet Nam, and likely other conflicts as well.
Lt William Calley March 16 1968 My Lai Vietnam.
See my explanation of the relevent articles of the Unifom Code of Military Justice (UCMJ) above. I think it addresses your questions.
-- Modified on 3/21/2003 9:22:39 AM
I stand alongside you and your sediments for our citizens in uniform. May they ALL clean up and return home as quick as possible.... unlike some of us who spent 2 tours in Vietman.
God Bless 'em and thanks for preserving our Freedoms!
Mag...RIGHT ON...1st Cav Airmobile Viet Nam Vet....yes support those men and women...and hermes, maybe over a beer you and I could iscuss the "oath" and you would understand the concept of not questioning orders...you may question the concept or the why...but questioning good moral orders during war only serves to result in the deaths of innocent men and women...take it from a 1st Cav Capt who saw it happen in real life.
Ahh, we fought to preserve the rights of others and that my dear heremes is a right you have...to disagree..and for that fact I for one am glad that I gave part of my life to allow you to post your disagreements here.
To all my military brothers and sisters who served in any capacity..Thank You
Take care and stay safe
OR
For all of those that are objecting to our brave soldiers following orders or the fact that the U.S. is in the process of disposing of a brutal dicatator. Just take one look at the discussion board that we are writing on so freely. We have the freedom to bad mouth our country's policies if we choose to,(I FOR ONE AM %100 BEHIND MY PRESIDENT AND OUR SOLDIERS AND THEIR MISSION!)We have the freedom to discuss anything that we want to. Do you think that there was any kind of a discussion board or anything in Iraq that an Iraqi could freely voice his or her opinion? I think not. At least not without being executed as a result. These are the freedoms that we enjoy as Americans. Be proud that we have the freedom of speach,the freedom of religion and many other freedoms that not everyone in this world enjoys. The reason that we have these freedoms is because so many soldiers in so many conflicts over the course of the history of the U.S. have sacrificed so much. Without them we'd either be speaking with British accents or speaking German or Russian as a first language. Thank God that they were there to answer the call and not question their orders. You enjoy what you have today because of them. God speed to all of them and I pray for a quick successful ending to the war and a safe return home to all of them! Maybe the next time the French need our help if their borders are being overrun by an enemy force we should turn our backs on them, how quickly they forget what was done for them and perhaps we should stop sending grain and other aid to Russia. Then you'll see how quickly they change their attitudes!
