I have noticed that while many folks on the board may talk about the dangers of BBFS, they don't seem to mind at all the concept or practicing DATY? I was curious why one would be considered "risky behavior" while the other is a pretty much standard and accepted practice? Was curious to see what the board thinks on this?

BTW, please do not misconstrude this question as any type of criticism. What a provider chooses to offer is entirely her own business, as well as what a customer chooses to partake in.

Cheers;

Snowman

P.S. Yes I am pretty much a lurker who only pops my head out from time to time

CDC info on HIV and oral sex

http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/pubs/faq/faq20.htm

WebMD links

http://my.webmd.com/content/article/64/72450.htm?lastselectedguid={5FE84E90-BC77-4056-A91C-9531713CA348}

http://my.webmd.com/content/article/41/1687_50117.htm?lastselectedguid={5FE84E90-BC77-4056-A91C-9531713CA348}

http://my.webmd.com/content/article/62/71824.htm?lastselectedguid={5FE84E90-BC77-4056-A91C-9531713CA348}

Thanks for the articles, unfortunately they all pretty much get to the same point that HIV can be transmitted through oral sex, therefore I believe the original question still stands.

Why is DATY an accept practice and BBFS frowned upon as risky behavior?

It's pretty much 'standard' belief (on TER at least) that DATY is far far far less dangerous that BBFS. After BBGreek (aka suicide!) BBFS must be the most dangerous sexual activity one can have with an escort.

I suppose you could get as many differing opinions on this question as there are members.
I personally love to DATY, but seldom do anymore. IMO, it is a dangerous practice.

-- Modified on 4/23/2007 6:06:54 PM

I begin with the disclaimer that I cannot possibly speak for everyone.

My short and simple answer to your query on these activities is that there are so very little fluids exchanged that the risks seem neglible. But let's explore why I wouldn't engage in these activites.

The best way to transmit viral STDs is via blood. Virus particles enter the bloodstream and get away from the insertion site (mouth, genitals, anus) where they can cause a generalised infection (HIV) or a localized infection elsewhere (Hepatitis).

Gum Disease can be severe enough to release virus particles into the mouth.  Generally it has to be a periodontitis case - bleeding gums (gingivitis) plus bone loss (which leads to heavier gum bleeding). Thus an oral sex giver can release virus particles into the mouth and enter through an open sore or razor cut on the genitals of the recipient. This was the case on FLA a few years back when an older man got oral from a street hooker.

Worse still, if both parties have perio and after a rigorous session of oral, there exists the potential to transmit via DFK. Haven't seen a case like this yet.

Since time doesn't exist to go have a checkup before an appointment (by no means have your teeth cleaned within 48hrs before a session - gums can be nicked during cleaning) and not everyone's a dentist, a few simple questions could suffice:

When was your Last visit to a dentist?
Do you floss? Does it bleed when you do?
  -No to flossing or Yes to bleed = Hell No to oral (for me).
We all know what Smoking, Onions, and Garlic breath smell like - do you smell the pungent odor of halitosis?  
  -If so, reconsider oral. After all 20% of halitosis is from gum disease, the rest is from digestive processes. Google is you want more info.

The anus is composed of the thinnest layer of tissue of all orifi and that's why Anal is generally discouraged. Yet some providers risk it.  Anal is usually (and perhaps FS should be) done with good strong condoms, lots of lube, and many providers won't risk you finishing inside b/c ejaculate has a very high concentration of virus particles.  

I personally haven't had anal since college, and I didn't enjoy it then for personal reasons, so I don't actively seek it from providers or girlfriends.  I might consider it if circumstances were right.

For me, DATY depends on the girl, my mood and such. Why no science facts?  Here's one: lesbian to lesbian transmission of HIV always involves blood and I never nibble that hard...lol

Remember:
It takes approximately 10,000 virus particles to infect with HIV, and HIV can live for a time outside the body (the virginal Kimberly Bergalis/ FLA dentist using scalers he used on himself case). HIV can live outside the body on blood contaminated toys!

Hep B requires 1 (yes only ONE!) virus particle to infect but get you vaccine shots and you should be safe.  

Hep C scares the shit out of me, no vaccine nor really effective treatments yet.

Keep it Safe, Sane and Consensual.

Kosh

Let me first say that there is really a dearth of good research about the STD transmission risk associated with DATY.  The risk of HIV has been discussed repeatedly and the CDC website addresses this in part (but the risk of transmission per exposure -- or the relative risk of acquisition vs sexual intercourse -- really isn't known). Lesbian encounters clearly are associated with a low rate of HIV transmission (although the use of sex toys -- frequently unwashed -- IS associated with an appreciable risk of STD).
Blood is definitely not required for viral transmission -- and in fact HSV-2 (herpes virus simplex)is typically shed genitally in the absence of viremia (which is usually associated with the with initial episodes; HSV-1 is not typically associated with recurrent episodes).
Hepatitis B is far more contagious than HIV (example: given needle stick injury) because the concentation in blood is orders of magnitude greater than HIV.
The association of hepatitis C with sexual transmission is still somewhat questionable.
The exposures to be concerned about with DATY (besides HIV):
- syphilis is real risk. Genital ulcers may be difficult to notice and are typically asymptomatic.
- herpes (esp HSV-2) as noted above.
- chlamydia or gonorrhea are possible (but pharyngeal infection is typically asymptomatic; duration of infection or transmissbility is not really known).  
By the way, gingivitis would not be expected to affect the acquisition of any of these infections.

Thanks for the info about DATY....

I agree that blood is not required but definitely increases risk for transmission of viral and bacterial agents.  According to the CDC ( cdc.gov ), Hep C is potentially sexually transmitted and is definitely transmittted by blood.  

Hep B is simply more contagious than HIV viron to viron (1 Hep B viron can infect, 10,000+ HIV virons needed to infect).  This is the biggest reason why dental health professionals have never suffered an occupational exposure (knock on wood).  The diameter of the needles is smaller (25 oe 27 gauge vs. 18 often used in medicine) and needle sticks are shallower - not penetrating further than the dermis.  Gotta love gloves!

The two biggest differences b/w gingivitis and Periodontitis are bone loss (which can only be seen radiographically unless someone shows signs of advanced perio (receding gums)) and a bacterial culture (who has time for that).  Consider that as Hobbyists we don't have access to radiographs and culture studies, then why not take the extra precaution of not trying to distinguish between the two types of gum disease and assume the worst?

HIV patients often go through a period in which there exists rapid bone loss even with professional dental care.  Many HIV patients will eventually transition from full dentition to partial to edentulous (wearing denture plates) over the course of years.

As far as your statement about gingivitis, try this article out:

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00048364.htm

Other articles can be found with a search.

So the potential for infection risk HIV associated gum disease should be considered - that's all I'm saying.  I'm not trying to force my ideas on anyone, merely express them in an open minded forum.

Thanks for your reply,
Kosh

A coreection:  No dental health care Occupational Exposure of HIV.