A few threads back, Deanna posted the following:

"...have a friendly discussion with a friend who is so excieted to be meeting so and so that works at such and such .."

THIS IS BIG TROUBLE FOR HOBBYISTS.

I've got a BIG problem with whoever the 'other provider' friend is in this scenario.  She had absolutely no right to be telling Deanna (or anybody else) ANY client info regarding her future appointment.  That's privileged information given to her by the client, and she showed very bad judgement in sharing it with anyone, friendly discussion or not.  Bad, Bad, Bad.

I'd like to know who it is, just so I can make sure she never gets MY personal information to spread around.  Other hobbyists should be very concerned about this, too.  Deanna, please 'fess up who it is, and next time tell your friend to shut up when it comes to blabbing personal info about clients.

atl_mgr

-- Modified on 3/21/2004 2:13:16 AM

I would have to agree with you 100% that this is a very bad thing. However, I think that it is human nature for people to want to share info and also to brag about who their client base is.

The current trend of needing to give a provider the name and number of a previous provider we have seen would only seem to encourage this.

We are in this hobby by choice. There are inherant risks. If we are not willing to take the risks, we should not be in the hobby.

The ladies take far more risk than we do. Risk of abuse, problems with LE and risk of exposure.

I was on a dinner date one time with a provider friend of mine. A guy walks up to the table and starts talking to my date. After a second he asks if she is free for a morning appt. My date was so embarrassed and angry that we just got up and left the restaurant.

Just my .02 worth.

Good Hunting!

Pheonix

If you think they don't discuss
their dates and exactly who is
who, then you need to rethink
what your hobby is. Sure, some
of the ladies delete or tear up
all of your information, but I'm
willing to bet that most keep a
very large quantity of the info
we supply to them. whether it is
on purpose or they just don't
know how to clean the hard drive.
Some of th ladies don't associate
with the other ladies in the area
because they don't want to get
caught up in the drama and gossip.

And to Phoenix, refs are and have
been the most widely used way to
safely verify a client. What good
does looking at a drive license do
it doesn't have a stamp on it that
says "I"M A KILLER" or "I'M LE"
while verifying a reference at
least shows if the client is a nice
guy or rough or likes wierd stuff.

Is actively encourage all hobbyists to avoid being jerks.  Good providers are having to take actions beyond what they need to take to avoid having their time wasted or being ripped off, or worst, being hurt or killed.  There are two sides to the street that we walk on, hobbyists have reviews to rely on, if they chose to use them.  Providers have no information on the reliability of hobbyists who book them, afterall, our handles keep us anonymous, so they cannot figure out that the "RaginBull" of his reviews or posts is actually Paul Smuck setting up an appointment. So they have little else to rely on than to talk to provider friends who may have seen Paul Smuck.  Hobbyists like to rip all of the ripoff artists who populate the provider universe, but some do not see the absolute requirement of playing straight with good, honest providers.  If good, honest providers cannot make a good, safe living at the business, then we hobbyists will be left to navigate an increasing population of ripoffs, who do not take risk because they normally show up with big, angry, raw knuckled creeps to "protect" them.

-- Modified on 3/21/2004 8:46:11 AM

-- Modified on 3/21/2004 8:47:52 AM

-- Modified on 3/21/2004 8:49:17 AM

I have to agree with atl mgr, I have always said that if u believe that some providers don't keep info on their clients then u are sadly mistaken.....Also I have stated in the past that providers do not need all that personal info and if u give it to the wrong provider and u piss her off then she will bury your a** which to me if a load of crap..........Yes screening is a must to a point, bottom line LE will bust u anyway they can..

Discretion is a MUST in this biz and providers as well as clients need to feel comfortable at every level......Just my 02....

Terri

Like I've said till I'm blue in the face, discretion is key.
I will have to respectfully disagree with you Teri. I don't keep clients' info, meaning phone numbers. I MAY have a few email addy's and have less than 5 clients/friends numbers upon thier insistance. They ONLY way I will keep a phone number is if they insist on it and only after several months of building a trusting rapport.

I'll tell you why I ask for a reference from a trusted provider. If it's someone I know but don't know well or respect, I'll ask for a second reference. I want to know some very basic things, such as;have you actually seen the gent in question? This will answer the next question, generally which is he suspected of being LE. The last thing I want to know is whether he was a gentleman while visiting with you. I don't need to know where you live, your work info, blah blah blah. Those have all been known to be fake. I also happen to have an additional safety net but that is known only to myself. Even that is non invasive.

On the flip side, that is why I won't have clients or even most people into my home. I'll have them come to my location but not my home, ever!I've made that mistake before but not ever again. My privacy is sacred to me. I've got a girlfriend who saw folks in her home and lo and behold, one idiot showed up drunk to her house, at midnight when her children were home.

Hmmm, go figure, discretion goes both ways.

-- Modified on 3/21/2004 11:24:00 AM

I guess I should rephrase my one comment, I did not mean all providers but I do know of alot of providers who do keep the info regardless of how much they deny it.....WIth some providers its like filling out an application for a home or car...Damn girls they just want to f*ck u for an hr not buy you.........lol Ok I have said enough...Have a great day!!!

Terri

I have no problem a provider checking out a reference given by the client; this only makes sense from a safety perspective.  Session or client details should not be revealed or discussed, however.  I think Brooke's reference guidelines are more than sufficient:  1) actual client?, 2) no LE concerns?, and 3) a gentleman?  Terri takes this a step further, where she refuses to discuss ANY aspect of previous client (except warnings to others, where warranted).

What's at issue here with Deanna's provider friend is that the client information was voluntarily offered and discussed without the client's knowledge.  That is NOT discretion, nor was it a reference check.

Brooke and Terri, thanks for input from your side of the fence.

atl_mgr

You'd be amazed as to how many people love to brag about who they've seen or how often or "what they've got out of them". Its a sad sad thing and I suppose that is why some of us keep to ourselves and only trust a very few.

Your welcome atl mgr...This has always been a sore subject with me. Why we can't just remember what this business is all about, having fun without all the DRAMA!!!

Terri

I agree that discretion goes both ways.

Each party has to be careful at all times, even in discussions with friends who are trusted. It doesn't take long for a 'he said she said' situation to occur, and when it does, lord only know where the story will lead, when it will end, what damage will be done and how many people will get dragged into it.

If you are a hobbyist or a provider long enough, you'll either know of an instance of this happening to someone or you've been in the middle of an episode of this nature.

Just try to step back, listen, learn what you need to from the situation(s) and go apply it.

But I also know all of "our" details are in the reviews....I'm sure that is why many providers don't like reviews posted, but I don't mind...I sure don't like my SO reading them, but we deal with that in some form or fashion being in this biz.

I have talked at times with providers regarding a gent, just as gents have spoken amongst themselves about what a provider may or may not have done....I don't give out information, unless it is necessary for verification purposes(i.e. said provider is verifying a gent)

As I stated in the thread above, I do ensure someone knows who I am with, and where/when if I have never seen him before...it is my life, and I've seen enough to understand what can happen when someone doesn't know where you are...

But of the FEW persons I speak to, my business is kept confidential, as I keep theirs-all that is needed is a mental note...nothing needs to be taken down...I appreciate each person that allows me to call them at anytime to ensure my safety, as I allow them to, and encourage it...I have had calls from providers who know I do this, and they have entrusted me also, when no one else knows where they are...

My discretion for my clientele is as important as my safety..for me it is a basic instinct for me; and I have to trust the gent to do the same for me...but I can neither bend one way or the other on this topic...I can only do what is right for myself, and the privacy and security of my clientele....

Sexy Sofia


-- Modified on 3/21/2004 5:09:31 PM

With due respect (and I understand the need for safety and protection), I disagree with a portion of your post. Once a session has completed safely, the burden of risk shifts sharply to the hobbyist, IMHO.

ALL of your details are not in the reviews. Most providers do not use their real name, nor address, nor any other really personally identifiable information in their marketing campaigns. For those who do, their choice has been made. However, I would not expect very many hobbyists would appreciate having their name and other information bandied about without express permission.

I suspect quite a few of us hobbyists would likely experience a fair amount of problems if our identities reached the wrong person(s), so it is in complete confidence that we go along with the approval and identification processes. If news of our session hit the papers or TV (even if it is barely noticeable), most providers can pick up and eventually resume working with little impact. Some of us on the other hand could possibly stand to lose careers, families, friends, etc.

Once again, I truly respect the levels of security that you must setup to protect yourself from weirdos, stalkers, etc. Please take as much precaution as you see fit. But once the session has ended and you are physically safe and secure, we only ask that providers completely destroy and forget the information to the fullest extent possible.

I truly agree with you, mrbooks...I recall clientele strictly by name alone...no one can ever get into my head except for me....lol!

That's why I said I don't have to keep anything on paper or otherwise...I have had a client in the neighborhood without my consent...and that was very upsetting...

We all go through the risk...I have also had a spouse try to contact me...I could have answered, but did not-for respect for my gent...Believe me, if a gent entrusts me with his information, they will know something about me I will have to entrust them with....That is fair and considerate to me...and I appreciate every one of you who keeps that in kind....

I will do whatever it takes to ensure WE are comfortable...Having a life outside of the biz is also highly important to me as well...and I would like to keep it that way as well...

Great topic, by the way!!!

Have fun always, play safe...

Sofia

"If news of our session hit the papers or TV (even if it is barely noticeable), most providers can pick up and eventually resume working with little impact. Some of us on the other hand could possibly stand to lose careers, families, friends, etc."

I don't want to be argumentative but I can promise you that your life is in NO way more important or your societal position is more in jeapordy than mine. I too have a career, investments,a family, and friends not to mention my chidrens' peers and their parents all of which would be adversly affected. I would invite you to take a little time and talk to some of the girls who have been busted and see how thier lives were "impacted". I can absolutely promise the occurance of the gentlemen who may have been caught are rarely even inconvenienced (scared a little maybe) compared to what happens to the women. If I remember what happened in the TBD case, they actually lost most of their case because the gentlemen who did get caught wouldn't testify for fear of being outed. I also remember girls who had families remain in jail for weeks, lost their homes, children were taken away and worse.

Would you say that was "with little impact"?


-- Modified on 3/21/2004 7:43:05 PM

Brooke, I stand somewhat corrected.  Again, no disrespect intended and I certainly don't mean to project that I don't think providers have anything to lose in terms of their home life (especially when children are involved). Recently, I have discussed a number of these things with a provider acquaintance and certainly don't envy the amount of precautions you have to take. By all means, be safe and protect your identity as well as the providers.

However, your statement that "the gentlemen who did get caught wouldn't testify for fear of being outed" is most of my point. Once a session has been completed, there is no reason to hang on to any information that may lead to any gentlemen being "outed", which would lead to even worse complications for the provider as well. Thus, the most prudent thing FOR BOTH PARTIES to do is to delete emails (careful - not all messages are ever destroyed), phone numbers, cell phone call history, names, drivers license information, credit cards, etc. as soon as your personal safety is assured.

And since it has been established that sometimes providers get into disagreements and sabotage each other, the above limitations should be extended to conversations between even good friends (of the moment) to the greatest extent possible.

I think where you miss the boat is in risk/reward of the occupation.  An earlier post estimated that a provider can make from $125,000 to $200,000 a year (probaly tax free to a large degree).  I think this level of compensation makes up for the risk undertaken.  I wonder how many of the ladies could even make $30,000 a year in a regular job.  

Most of the guys probably do not make this level of income and they pay for the services for either enjoyment or to make up for some missing attention.  If the ladies occupation carried absolutely no risk, maybe the hourly rate would be in the range of that of a good consultant or about $100/hour.

You know me and you have been friends for years and we have talked about alot of stuff and went thru alot of drama and saw alot of drama.  Lets not kid ourself...this biz has more drama then daytime soaps.

PS....how many times has the Deanna situation happened to us   before....rember (Chicago car guy)...(Atlanta A.M.).

Women in the biz talk in this biz about some of the guys they see and if they say they haven't they are lying.  More often it is just talk about where they went, how good a guy was sexually, how bad he was sexually, was he nice, etc....sure they might mention what he does for a living but not in a malicious way.

The person who protects client confidentiality the most is Cory....when I have asked for a reference she has a nickname for each man she sees (he is aware of his nickname and uses this for reference reasons)...She is a very sweet lady who screens well initially then does not mind providing refs while maintaining client confiditiality.

Raven  

There is absolutely no reason whatsoever to keep anyone's info. I personally use sticky notes which get thrown away immediately after an appointment. I also happen to have a computer program which is scheduled to clean my hard drive every 90 minutes as well as cookies, cache, and all kinds of stuff. Its quite inexpensive and works like a charm. If anyone is interested in the program, email me and I'll be happy to send along the info.
xoxo
B

Thanks to you both for your candid and honest posts.  For what it's worth, you both just climbed up several more notches on my respect meter.

Now if I could just get y'all to climb up a few notches on my OTHER meter... lol

Take care and be safe,
atl_mgr

-- Modified on 3/22/2004 9:03:54 PM

We ladies often discuss these things about new clients.. and such .. how do you think we do provider references.. we simply cant go by name only.. how many peter,pauls,and johns do we all know. the information given to me was no way out of the ordinary no matter what anyone says that was not personal information.. it was just verification.. that is what he wanted us to know. obviously he didnt care who knew where he worked or he would not have called us from his office..
sorry if i made you feel like we blab all this private stuff but it was just an instance that im glad she did tell and now she and I both know when he calls back not to believe a word he says..
he ended up standing up the both of us ..