Well the braves are kicking the Giants asses today. I like seeing Bonds lose. Julio Franco is an older guy in great shape big arms and nobody talks about steriods, He has that I'm so glad to be here outlook. Bonds on the other hand is an older guy in great shape and I think he's on something. Do you think that has something to do with him coming across as a bitter asshole? We don't have any drama to talk about down here in So. Ga, but we do like a ggod time. If anyone knows someone down around Albany, please let me know. Thanks Bob
Is Bonds juiced or not? It's hard to say but here are a few facts. If Bonds is juiced or not, he still has to put the bat to the ball and have enough coordination to lift it out instead of grounding out. To my knowledge, no drug can give you the hand eye coordination to do the toughest individual aspect of any sport. Last time I checked, his batting average was consistantly in the top ten of the league for most of the years he has played.
The power numbers have always been there compared to his peers. Even when he was the younger slimmer version with the Pirates, remember he still won a few MVP awards and was in the tops for homeruns and slugging percentage. Yet back then nobody questioned if he was on steriods or performance enhancers. I think everyone started whispering when he broke McGwire's record, but remember, a few years before that, he threatened the record when it was 60 but fell short. The power numbers are not a fluke like lets say Brady Anderson who went from 20 HRs to 50HRs back down to 20 HRs.
Another key fact is that his body has never broken down really due to ligament and muscle injuries. (Can you say Ken Griffey Jr.) If he was on steriods, he would have ripped a muscle or blown a knee by now like Brady Anderson who did admitt to using steriods. Yes his body has blown up but age will do that to you as well. I don't look the same now as when I played college football. My body responds to working out differently now and for what ever reason I put on more muscle mass now, but the same workout 20 years ago made me more lean and ripped.
Now why is Bonds so bitter? Who knows. It's his personality. Not every ball player has to have a Sammy Sosa smile for me to appreciate his skill and talent. Maybe he is bitter because people want to focus more on the rummors than to truly appreciate his skills as probably one of the best hitters of his era. I think the constant questions would piss me off too. Remeber, this is the same guy who lashed out at reporters who asked him about juicing the night his father passed. Things like that would turn me off to the press as well. That respect is a two way street. If a reporter is against you, whatever he writes about that player will shape the public's perception of that guy. How in the world is Bond's suppose to defend himself. He doesn't own a paper to retract the negative things said about his personality and he shouldn't. All I'm saying is unless you've met the guy, don't believe the hype.
I thought Bobby Knight was a royal ass until I met him and had the pleasure of spending time with him. All I can say is if you have a boy and you want him to become a man, and you belive in dicipline and not this new aged politically correct BS form of raising a boy, then he is the man to send you son to if he has basketball talent. If I just bought into the press, I would never have even come close to that because I would have thought he was the tyrant and bully he is made out to be.
Why should Bonds embrace the press when they don't show him the respect he has earned. Yeah, he will never grace the cover of a Wheaties box, but then again, he may not even care and I think that is what bother's the average fan. I say just let the man be and enjoy what he does better than maybe anyone else who has ever played the game.
-- Modified on 8/29/2004 12:19:42 AM
Can't believe I'm making a response about Barry Bonds on THIS board of all places, but I just could not resist putting in my .02 on this.
First of all I will say that Bonds has skills that put him in a class that folks can legitimately argue if he is the greatest of all time. That alone puts him in an amazing category of players, and he deserves that.
I do have a few points to pick with you, however. Bonds never threatened the 60 mark before his 73 homerun season. In fact he never broke 50 before he hit 73. That is a season and record he publicly dedicates to his trainer, by the way.
I'll agree that we get "thicker" as we get older and workouts have more of a bulking effect as we get older. If one does the same workout at 40 as he did at 20, chances are he will be bigger at 40. If one decides to use a good personal trainer at 40, chances are he will be bigger yet. I don't know what kind of serious workouts Bonds may or may not have been doing as a young/slim player for the Pirates, but any reasonable person can admit that to go from what size he was then to what size he is now is far more than JUST some age and a trainer.
Bonds has done a good job of being able to avoid too many big injuries through out his career regardless if he has used roids or not. That is not to say he has not spent serious amounts of time on the bench and/or DL. But have you ever watched Barry Bonds in the outfield compared to a Griffy, Jr. or Brady Anderson type? Does he give 110% of himself? He goes about his job as though giving 90% of himself is better than most other players 110%, so why try so hard when he might get hurt? Remember the early years of his Giants career when he would slap his glove from his chest to his leg to his chest, etc. before catching an easy fly ball? Well, one time he dropped one! No more of that kind of show boating from him anymore. He also has a habbit of never even moving on a ball that he has determined is a homerun. One time he didn't move from his tracks when a fly ball went over his head and it hit off the top of the wall and back onto the field. OOPS!
Now I can bring up hundreds of things Bonds has done or said in the media which have given him a bad name in the media, but I'll just focus on one. Not long after Bonds signed the biggest free agent deal in history at the time (which arguably he deserved since even then he was arguably the best player on the market) when he went from the Pirates to the Giants, he did an interview for a Sports Illustrated or some kind of magazine in which he talked about the stress of the media, fans, and fellow players had put on him because of that deal amongst other things. In that article he declared he wanted to and would quit baseball because it was THAT bad. Up until that point I had given Barry the benefit of the doubt. But anyone who is ready to walk away from playing a GAME for a living (forget the millions of dollars), because of the "stress" is the biggest cry baby on the planet in my book. So Barry may not control the media or be able to "defend" himself in the media very easily, but he could just try growing up and stop bringing the bad press upon himself.
No I have not personally met Barry, but I have met and am friends with MLB players who have met and/or played with him. Their opinions of him don't differ much from mine. Everyone respects his talent and the numbers he has put up, but they don't respect him as a person. Almost makes you feel sad for Barry. NAAAAH! lol
Funny for I am not a big Bonds fan either. Not so much against him but he doesn't play for the team I'm passionate about. Anyway to some of your points. I wouldn't expect a man his age to give 100% in the field as let say a 25 year old. Bonds has said in public after last season that if he was in the A.L. he would probably be a DH. I think that is him acknowledging his skills as an outfielder have gone down at age 40. But lets not forget that besided all of the hitting awards he has won, this guy has 8 Gold glove awards.
I do debate the never challenged 60 notion because from 96 to 2000 there was always the constant watch, which guy, Bond, McGwire, A-Rod, Sosa or Griffey Jr would break the mark because they all would get off to such fast starts and continue past the allstar break. From 96 to 2000 he hit: 42, 40, 37, 34 (in only 102 games due to the strike), and 49 homeruns. In fact the year he hit 34 he was on pace to hit over 50. I think he could have clubbed 16 more between 63 potential games. Also the year he hit 49 he only played in 143 games. I think he could have jacked one out in 22 games but because of his age, he is taking a few days off per month because he and his manager know his greatest value is with his bat and not his glove. If he was in the A.L. his numbers might be bigger. Last year he hit 45 and he missed 35 games mainly due to his manager sitting him down to give him a rest. Fifty easily could have been gotten his stats was the only driving factor for him.
Again roids may give you the power but it still does not improve your hand eye coordination which has gotten better in the later stages of his career as evident from his batting average. As of today he is hitting .361. Over the last four years he hit: .306, .328, .370, .341. He is a career .300 hitter.
As for being his own worst enemy, yes he does put his foot in his mouth at time because the average person doesn't make the millions he does and we all say we would take a portion of that and be happy to play a childs game. But in the words of Puff Daddy (I NEVER thought I would ever catch myself quoting him LOL). More money more problems. Now the average person is saying, "yeah I wish I had the opportunity to have such problems in life", I think it goes a lot deeper than should I drive the Benz or Rolls to the park today.
I can attest from personal experience, a professional athletes life is very plush but it also has pressures that the average person can not understand. I can only speak from the football side of life but I'm sure there are similarities with baseball. But even football player look at baseball players with envy because football player's contracts are not guaranteed so what you read in the papers is not what you may end up with. Hence that is why you see more NFL players holding out on their contracts or demanding signing bonuses because they look at people like Jamal Anderson. If he would not have held out, he would have been assed out because he blew his knees out not long after that. Athletes have to make as much as they can in a short time span because for the majority of players that window of opportunity is not that big. Even the average person would try to maximixze their earning potential when they can. Now Jamal was eaten up in the ATL press when he held out but now his career is over on the field.
Bond makes so much money that he doesn't need the press to be a P.R. arm for him as most average players do. So he is basically free to speak his mind. Of all your MLB friends who think he is a butt hole, go back and ask them would they want to have him on their team? I bet everyone will say yes. Jeff Kent could not stand the guy but always said, Bonds gave the Giants their best chance to win and that is the bottom line from teammates. The most talented team I ever played on, I could not stand the a good portion of them, but I knew they gave me the best chance of winning and we pulled together on gameday. That is what a professional does. Its not a popularity contest or else the A's from the early 70's would never have won squat.
So basicaly, Bonds doesn't need the media for he has his money. Fans outside of San Fran may not like or get him but ask the fans in Frisco do they love the guy. I've been out there and the answer is HELL YES. If given the chance for one season would you want the guy in a Braves uniform? I bet most Braves fans would say yes even with the baggage he brings. Joe Montana was probably the biggest horses butt and anti social player on the 49er's, but during his peak, if you asked any club would they take him on their team, I bet every one would say yes. Same goes for Bonds.
Must be something in that Bay area water, because the A's, Montana and Bonds all play in that area. funny. Anyway, we should probably turn this into a sports talk show to resolve, but as you can guess I love a good sports conversation.
After the 92 season, Bonds wanted desperately to come to Atlanta. He loved the city and really loved (and still loves) Bobby Cox. The team was about to sign him and the PLAYERS had a major uproar. The team didn't want Bond's attitude to disrupt the clubhouse. This was voiced by alleged malcontent David Justice.
Bonds is a gifted ball player, just not a nice person to most. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and say that he's just not a people person. Oh, and his 35 missed games were due mostly to injury. You don't "rest" 35 games in one baseball season. Come on!
This is the same Braves that brought in great personalities like Kenny Lofton and Gary Sheffield. Both great club house guys, not. Atlanta is fortunate like only a few MLB teams where the ownership is going to spend money to bring in the best talent if possible but they do have a budget unlike a team like the Yankees who will just pay the luxary tax.
Yes I remember that Bonds did want to come to Atlanta. It was the old, if you can't beat them join them thinking but the Giants offered more money and as with 90% of professional athletes, they are going to go where the money is. David Justice spoke out because he still thought his friend Ron Gant was coming back. Bonds and Ron play the same position. Dave was the man then so he probably did have some sway but not as much as you might think. Plus Ryan Klesko was around then and Bobby Cox was in love with the potential he showed even though he was a dissater as a fielder.
As far as the games missed, its common knowledge that Dusty Baker and Alou who followed him both have a policy of sitting Barry at least two games a month and Barry can opt out of it. A major league season is 6 plus months. I never said Bonds didn't get hurt but compared to the injuries that Brady Anderson was getting, who again admitted to being juiced, its not even close. Case in point, Brady tore his bicep muscle opening his locker alegedly.
I'll go you one further and say Bonds is a butt hole but I think everyone is missing the point that I don't think he really cares what the writers or most fans think about him. The modern athlete is so far removed from the fans due to economic factors and "cult of personality" reasons, fans shouldn't be surprise by Bonds's attitude. The days of Willie Mays going to the neighborhood to play stick ball after a double header at the Polo Grounds are long since gone.
I never thought I would see the day I would be defending Barry Bonds but hey I can blame it on a full moon or something. Lighten up guys. This is not life or death here. I'm out with this last post. Take care.
-- Modified on 8/29/2004 10:17:50 PM
Here I go again getting sucked into this discussion, but I love it like you do, panter69.
I agree with many of the points gdoggatl made. While it is true Bonds will help a team win ball games and that is the bottom line, the fact of the matter is the majority (not all) of club houses (including the Braves as gdoggatl pointed out) would rather not have Bonds on their roster despite his numbers. Teams such as the Braves run a very classy organization in which the likes of Lofton are quietly "let go." As if Bobby's record hasn't shown over the years, he can manage a wide variety of players and their associated personalities that come along with it and still put up plenty of wins even when those players numbers may not come close to Bonds' numbers. So while anyone would salivate over having the numbers Bonds puts up to be on their roster, the disrupting personality of a Bonds in the club house over rules his numbers in many cases.
You posted homerun stats on Barry from 96-2000 that I will take for granted are correct as they do also prove my earlier point about Bonds never breaking the 50 mark before 73. However, you mentioned an excuse for his low year (34 homeruns) in that span to be the strike? Not that it matters, but the strike was in 94 just for clarification. Anyhow, the point is we can all speculate on numbers based on a certain pace, etc., but that is why all the games are played. That is why it is such an accomplishment to not only have the ability, the talent, the opportunity, etc., but to also perform and accomplish such amazing things. Yes injuries happen. Yes, players miss games. That is all part of what makes records so special. In Bonds' case, if he sits out 2 games/month then he would miss about 12 games in a perfectly healthy year. The fact that he missed an additional 23 games in one season on top of that doesn't "excuse" him from the fact that he didn't put together a long enough/healthy enough season in which he was totally on top of his game from start to finish with the exception of his 73 homerun season. Again that is part of what makes that record so special.
I'll agree with you that Bonds does not care what fans think and he is so far removed from the fans for many reasons economics included. And there are many examples of players in all sports who are that way as well. However, I disagree that the days of players of the Willie Mays kind are long since gone. For every player in the Bonds category, I can name a player in the Willie Mays category. The first one that comes to mind, Cal Ripken.
Good points. I forgot to mention Brady Anderson. He went from 50 homeruns to single digits real quick. He was without a doubt juiced, as was Lenny Dykstra.
The Giants offered more money, but Bonds was going to take less to come here. The Braves were still grooming Klesko for first base (pre-McGriff).
It's funny you mentioned Lofton and Sheffield. They do have reputations. I always have fond memories of them though. I worked for the organization in 1997, the year Lofton was here and Sheffield played for the Marlins. I remember on two occasions, Lofton staying behind to sign autographs for fans outside of team parking lot while the others just passed them by. I remember Sheffield as the only Marlin who would look at various workers and exchange pleasantries.
I know this has nothing to do with clubhouse behavior, or even the topic at hand, but those two names mentioned in the same sentence brought back memories. Oh, and the Braves were robbed in the 1997 NLCS! I hope Eric Gregg is still unemployed!
Too bad Candace isn't here to participate in this discussion!!
Why? Does she like baseball??