Cash can fall out of my pocket too
So last Friday night I went to see my ATF, which I got there like 20 to 30 minutes early. Since I was there early, I decided to walk 2 blocks to a local 7-Eleven to get a pack of gum/mint, to freshen up my breath a little more. As I was walking back, like a block and a half away, suddenly an undercover LE car pulls up. At first, I couldn’t tell it was them before, since it was kind of dark. I was talking to me and they asked me where I was going? Where you from and etc.? So I just told them, I was going to my car and get ready to go home. Next thing I know, I was being padded down, I’m like WTF.
I was wearing casual clothing and didn’t look out of place, since there were other people roaming around the streets too. Since the LE were padding me down, they found that I had an white envelope with some cash (which was for the provider that I was going to see) and I also had 2 bills in 20s or so in my wallet, just in case I want to extend my hour. Then LE asks me, how come I had so much money and had actually counted it too. So I just told them a BS story that, “I just drop my GF off, which was 2 blocks down and there weren’t any parking space there. We just came back from dinner. And the reason I had cash in an envelope is that, I can watch how much I was spending or budget that I have in my wallet. Plus, just in case if I lose my wallet or ever got it stolen, I will have some cash with me just in case.”
The LE actually bought the story that I have told them. So they ran my ID and I had nothing illegal on me. They let me go. As I was walking toward my car, which I parked in front of the provider’s upscale complex; I notice, they were like following me to make sure I was going to my car and I was on my way home.
This was a close call for me and almost got caught when I was going to see a provider, since it was the first time that it ever happens to me. Also I had to cancel the appointment that I had schedule. So, I left and went home. Don’t think I’ll ever go back there again
Has anyone encounter something similar to this? Since this is the first time that it ever happen to me.
-- Modified on 8/5/2012 7:13:47 PM
As you said, that was a close call.
I still understand why the cops were asking all of these questions.
Was the area you were in known for drug dealing or other illegal activities?
Something tipped the cops off and I am wondering what that may have been.
You were lucky that no one robbed you of that money, too. Walking around with all of the cash is dangerous itself.
I was wearing casual clothing and didn’t look out of place, since there were other people roaming around the streets too. Since the LE were padding me down, they found that I had an white envelope with some cash (which was for the provider that I was going to see) and I also had 2 bills in 20s or so in my wallet, just in case I want to extend my hour. Then LE asks me, how come I had so much money and had actually counted it too. So I just told them a BS story that, “I just drop my GF off, which was 2 blocks down and there weren’t any parking space there. We just came back from dinner. And the reason I had cash in an envelope is that, I can watch how much I was spending or budget that I have in my wallet. Plus, just in case if I lose my wallet or ever got it stolen, I will have some cash with me just in case.”
The LE actually bought the story that I have told them. So they ran my ID and I had nothing illegal on me. They let me go. As I was walking toward my car, which I parked in front of the provider’s upscale complex; I notice, they were like following me to make sure I was going to my car and I was on my way home.
This was a close call for me and almost got caught when I was going to see a provider, since it was the first time that it ever happens to me. Also I had to cancel the appointment that I had schedule. So, I left and went home. Don’t think I’ll ever go back there again
Has anyone encounter something similar to this? Since this is the first time that it ever happen to me.
-- Modified on 8/5/2012 7:13:47 PM
This place I went to was actually an upscale area, near Downtown LA. And there wasn't any illegal activates or anything like that going on.
I'm not at all an expert on the law, however, it does seem to be a violation of one's civil rights to be stopped by an undercover cop and frisked for no apparent reason.
They can frisk you during a threshold inquiry, but only for weapons. They aren't supposed to look anywhere that could not reasonably conceal a weapon, at least that's what I've been told... it's called a "Terry Search" (see link).
It sounds to me like they're watching the provider, and you parking there and then walking to the store looked suspicious to them. If you had bought condoms at the store, or had any on you, they probably wouldn't have believed your story. If you had just gone in, and then come out an hour later, they probably still would have stopped you.
Incalls are a much higher risk than outcalls.
Like you said, the law does allow the police officer to pat you down, but the police officer can only pat you down if he believes you are concealing a weapon. Also, the police officer can only go into your pockets after he has pat you down and believe that you are concealing a weapon.
If I was in your situation, I would have questioned the police officer for even stopping me in the first place. You have a right to ask them why they are stopping you and questioning you. For example, you may say, "why am I being stopped and questioned?". If they don't reveal the reason, then ask them, "Am I free to go now".
Look at the second link and determine why they stop you and the reason for it.
(Scroll down a bit until you see "Car searches and Body searches")
http://www.policecrimes.com/police.html
(Scroll down and see "A justifiable stop" and "What is a justifiable frisk?")
http://www.legalzoom.com/us-law/privacy/when-can-police-stop
-- Modified on 8/6/2012 7:01:38 AM
The problem with that is (not to be antagonistic) from someone who both knows the law and has personal experience... Just because they're not "allowed" to do something doesn't mean the won't do something. I've had my car and person illegally searched numerous times. (I was never in violation of any law however). If they do find something it will be your word against theirs that the search was illegal and in most cases their version will be the one accepted.
Lets face it, a rich white guy, (or rich anybody) is a lot less likely to be shaken down by LE than a young person, minority, or anyone who looks like he can't hire a lawyer to ruin his career.
I purposely drive a nice car, wear a Rolex and carry myself in a manner that not only makes LE ignore me as a likely suspect in a crime, but also not a pushover where it comes to my rights. Cops, like everyone else push as hard as they can until they meet resistance. just like it's unlikely for a mugger to pick on a 6' 6" 280 lb guy that looks like he has a gun under his coat, neither are LE likely to harass a guy in a two thousand dollar suit, carrying a briefcase and getting out of a hundred thousand dollar car. Fair or not, it's just a fact of life.
... he probably at least somewhat fit the description of a suspect who fled from a crime nearby.
As for the questions about the money ... I would have showed him a business card followed by a, "None of your fucking business". For everyone else, you are not required to answer anything an officer asks you. I would recommend a more polite tone then I would take though.
You would have a chance to get the evidence, and most likely the case, thrown out in court. But it won't keep you from getting arrested, which is often all LE really cares about in these cases. They rely on the fact that most people will take a plea instead of going to trial.
They really ran rough-shod over your rights.
What they were hoping for is that you would crack and spill all the beans, then use you to get the gal.
Thank goodness you didn't crack, but you also lied to them which is very risky.
Also thank goodness they didn't hit you with the "We have a statement from the gal already incriminating you, so if you'll just confirm that we'll let you go; she's the one we wanted anyways." That's the oldest trick in the book, but it's amazing how effective it is. It's all BS of course, LE can lie all they want, and legally too.
The proper answer to the question: "Why do you have all this money on you?" is: "I would prefer not to answer any questions officer. Am I being detained?"
You're lucky they didn't just pocket your money and claim it is for evidence pending charges, or some shit like that.
Thank your lucky stars that you got out of that.
Did the gal ever get busted?
I have never had it done to me..but I know it happens all the time..
Its a big problem here for Minorities and men..
I am amazed at how stupid some people are to think it's racism. The NYPD does it in neighborhoods when there is high gun violence. It just so happens they are all in black areas in NY.
You tell me. What would the sense be to stop and frisk in Bayside when Brownsville has 30 times the crime rate. It makes more sense to do it Brownsville, RIGHT?
Here's a non bleeding liberal POV from a poor mother who agrees that proper police work saves lives.
Thanks for the info.
Also the gal never got busted before.
You made some major errors!!! There is NO way they could pay you down without probable cause or incident to arrest. I'm not buying your story. Unless you were in the mid-west where all the police or crooked. What state are you in? Two, never talk to the police. Unless they have reasonable suspicion or probable cause they have NO right to pat you down or if they think they are in danger which I doubt because you sounds like a nerd or old fat guy that wants to get laid. See what I'm saying. Know your rights.... Use your rights. Think and be smart. You don't have to talk to the police and suggest NOT to talk to the police !!!!
First of all, I'm in Los Angeles, CA and the place that I went to was in West LA. The reason that they patted me down, was the way I had dress, since I was in casual/baggy clothes. So I look out of place there. That's why the police thought I was dealing with drugs or some illegal activities.
Plus, if I was to make up the story, wouldn't I be using an alias, which I didn't. Another reason is that I didn't put the exact location, where it happen to me. If I did, you guys would know which provider is it, just looking into my username, if you had seen the provider before and if you were in my area.
-- Modified on 8/6/2012 10:58:52 AM
That is the smartest thing you have done all day. lol
The one thing you, and others need to take away from your story is, even though you got away with it, NEVER lie to LE unless they ask you if you shot someone and you actually did. lol Obstruction of Justice is a real charge, and it is being used more and more. The problem with "talking your way out of it" is by opening the door by answering even one question, you open the floodgates to an hour long interrogation. The longer the conversation, the more difficult to avoid incrimination without telling a lie. The solution? Don't interact with LE any more than is absolutely necessary.
I was thinking more like, which country was this? You don't have to answer a damn thing. The only communication you ever should have is just one question. Am I under arrest? If the answer no, thank you officer, have nice day.. If you are under arrest, you are better off by keeping your mouth shut anyway. In this case, next sentence coming out of your mouth should be, I want a lawyer and end of conversation.
A delusional state, I think.
You were probably observed parking your car and walking the two blocks away from 7-11. Since most 711's have parking lots it you were deemed suspicious. The likelihood that LE thought you were "hobbying" is slim. Dealing is much more likely.
Saying that you were almost "caught" is pretty far reaching.
Of course you were correct in cancelling the appointment since you were already in LE's scope
Right or wrong, they're in complete control at the time they stopped you. Sure, you could go after them later for violating your rights but that doesn't help you while they're frisking you. I think you handled it well. Always be polite.
If they were watching the provider, the envelope would've revealed you.
this is just one of the reasons I refuse to do so.
As for the OP, he is not in jail "despite" the way he handled things, not because of them.
First off, NEVER lie to the police, an obstruction of justice charge is more serious than a charge of solicitation and MUCH easier to prove. Secondly, you have the right as a citizen of a free country to come and go without being subjected to unreasonable search. Unless you are leaving out some details as to what happened, the police had no right to pat you down,
The proper way of handling this would have been to ask the police if you were under suspicion of having committed a crime, and if not, why are my actions warranting a search by LE.
If the answer is "No you are not a suspect" than the proper answer is "thank you, I will be about my day now". If the answer is "yes, you are suspect" the proper answer would be "In that case I don't think it would be in my best interests to speak to you without my attorney present. Am I under arrest?" and unless walking to a 7-11 has become a crime since I went to bed last night, they will have no choice but to let you go.
I kind of said this to the other poster. But (not to be antagonistic again you're entitled to your opinion). I've found in cases where you ask "Am I under suspicion of having committed a crime?" Their response will be "Why do you ask? Do you have something to hide?" At which point the partner will interject and say "Answer the fucking question." Next, they will exit the vehicle. Upon your protest they will physically accost you and shout "get on the fucking car asshole" and you will be slammed on the hood/trunk/side of the car.
Now that's just in my experience.
I have tried to play the "law is on my side" trump card. And it has not worked once, ever.
Again, just my experience.
For what it's worth... I too don't use an envelope. When I get to the room I put my phone, keys, and cash in the amount of the donation on the dresser or whatever else is convenient. When I gather my things to leave at the end of the session I just don't pick up the cash (if she didn't already take the hint when I went to the bathroom).
I have had a lot of interaction with LE over my lifetime, and no I am not white, yet I have still been able to find a balance between allowing my rights to be trampled without being confrontational with LE.
My response upon said partner stating something along the lines of "Why do you ask? Do you have something to hide?" would be something along the lines of "officer I can assure you my business is quite law abiding, but as I am not accustomed to having to account for my day to day business, I would like to ask you again, Am I a suspect in a crime?
If the partner tries to escalate, I would simply add "by your tone I can only assume that you suspect me of doing something illegal, in which case I don't see any benefit to me in speaking to you without the benefit of counsel. Is there anything else I can do for you good gentleman? and can I be on my way? or should I be placing a call to my attorney?"
Nothing inflammatory, nothing argumentative, and more importantly, no false statements that can bite me in the ass.
This too is just my experience, but with the many encounters that I have had with LE in my life, it's been over thirty years since I was slammed on the hood of my car. The key is "polite, but firm" LE knows that polite, well spoken, individuals with resources are the most likely to be believed by Judges, DA's and watch commanders. They will almost always go find a "softer" target.
My response upon said partner stating something along the lines of "Why do you ask? Do you have something to hide?" would be something along the lines of "officer I can assure you my business is quite law abiding, but as I am not accustomed to having to account for my day to day business, I would like to ask you again, Am I a suspect in a crime?
If the partner tries to escalate, I would simply add "by your tone I can only assume that you suspect me of doing something illegal, in which case I don't see any benefit to me in speaking to you without the benefit of counsel. Is there anything else I can do for you good gentleman? and can I be on my way? or should I be placing a call to my attorney?"
Nothing inflammatory, nothing argumentative, and more importantly, no false statements that can bite me in the ass.
This too is just my experience, but with the many encounters that I have had with LE in my life, it's been over thirty years since I was slammed on the hood of my car. The key is "polite, but firm" LE knows that polite, well spoken, individuals with resources are the most likely to be believed by Judges, DA's and watch commanders. They will almost always go find a "softer" target.
Or it may just be an instance of personal luck. I don't wear doo rags, keep my pants around my ankles, or bump rap music in the whip etc. and I consider myself fairly well-spoken.
But rednecks (and minorities who wish they were rednecks) will conduct themselves as such (but that's another discussion for another time).
I've never been in a situation where the cops responded well to my Cambridge educated gentleman act. My king's English and pleasant demeanor have always been met with course language at the least and excessive force at most. "I'd prefer you gentlemen not search the trunk not because I am a criminal, but because I'd like to be on my way to my destination. I obtained my Juris Doctor in 2008 and am gainfully employed. I do wish you gentlemen the best of evenings, however and I respect your calling and those of your ilk. I appreciate your service to our community." has never worked even in routine traffic stop situations once they've got their hearts set on the search and/or having you step out of the car.
They pretty much do what they want to do.
But that's just my experience.
-- Modified on 8/6/2012 10:07:41 PM
Yes, the police can and sometimes do go overboard or beyond the law in dealing with suspects. However, EVERY formal complaint filed against an officer must be inverstigated. An officer's employment file is open season in court. Any officer with a lengthy file of charges (excessice force, unreasonable search, etc) is totally useless as a witness. Any officer who becomes useless in court can no longer make arrests, and therefore needs to start looking for new employment. You make it sound like playing "bad cop" is a common occurence. Not for any officer who wants to have the same career a year from now.
I went to the Army for 6 years before getting my degree. During those years and my time in college, I did tons of drinking and drug use. I have had more run ins with the police then I care to even try and remember. In all those times, I can remember being searced without probable cause once. These days I don't do anything to draw their attention, but I have no doubt that showing one a business card and writing down that badge number will make one think twice about their next move.
Most of my bad experiences in fairness have been in dodgy parts of town where my parents still live. One example I was going to pick up a childhood friend (from the projects) so we could go to the club. This was after law school when I was working. I pulled into an alley so that I could reverse back in front of the building. I was blocked in by a cop car they asked me if I was in the area to buy drugs etc. because my drivers' license had me living in another area (which I did) and I had out of state plates... although I had grown up in the area where I was. I told them that. They asked me which high school I had gone to. I told them and told them I was on the football and track team and who the principal was at the time. They asked if they could search the car. I said no. They told me to get out of the car and pop the trunk. I did. They found nothing illegal. They held me a bit longer. My friend walks out of the building. I say that's the guy I'm there to pick up. I tell him to tell the officers. They say what's his name. I give them his name. They ask him what his name is. He gives them a different name because he thought he had warrants out. Long story short he basically fucked me. They continue to hold me there against the car apparently unsatisfied. A man runs out of the corner store up the block. Another man (the owner) runs out behind him holding his head yelling. The place had been robbed. The cops pursued. (There were multiple cars at this point). Before he left one cop said don't let us catch you in this neighborhood again.) before handing me my license back and running off. My parents live a block away.
Another time I was in my hometown again. There was an ATM I was aware of down a hill. I went to make a right down the hill not knowing it was one way (the bank was 20 yards down the hill.) I pulled into the bank parking lot just as I heard the police arrive. Again snatched out of the car. Trunk same routine. They asked me what I was doing there etc. I told them I was just stopping at the ATM on the way home. (Which I was.) Who I worked for in the city and what I did etc. They asked me if I was in the area to see prostitutes. I wasn't. Crackwhores aren't my thing. They held me out there a while. They had found some women's sandals on the rear passenger floor. They asked about them. I had no idea they were there. They were a friend's girlfriend's. We had gone to the club the night before. She had switched out of those apparently to put her heels on before going in the club. But stayed in her heels after the club and left them there. After explaining why there were heels there and why I had spare clothes in my trunk (in case I spill something on my shirt) or for whatever the fuck reason I so legally choose. Anyway was held out there a while before given the max ticket.
I have several more stories some in the ghetto some not.
Just for variety I was in my neighborhood in the buckhead section of Atlanta off a back street which is essentially crime free. The cop car was in front of me at a stop sign. They took the time out of their day to bust a U turn and pull up behind me. They flashed the lights. I was asked to step out of the car. What was I doing in that area. Let me see your driver's license. It showed my address in that area. Why are you pulling me over? Because you fit the description of a suspect. What suspect? Has there been a crime in the area? I'm concerned as a resident. That's police information I was told. Any other questions? I was asked snidely. No sir. Alright. Have a good night. And off they sent me.
Again I could go on and on. But the moral of the story is that the police have a license to do what they want. Yes, you can write them up. What will happen is that they will give their side of the story which will always include some reason for the stop. It is what it is. To imply you can get out of the situation by being cool is a fallacy. I'm speaking from personal experience and many of them at that.
When I was 14 a group of us was forced to strip to our boxers in a public park and searched for drugs and weapons.
You can't win with these guys. I've seen dealers get off in court for lack of probable cause. But the average person who gets stopped who hasn't committed a crime? If you want to press the police conduct issue and haven't been shot? Good luck. Bruises and black eyes just mean you resisted as far as the law is concerned. (I know because my face was cut once when I was slammed up against the wall outside a bar in a nice area while handcuffed during law school at a law school function no less.)
-- Modified on 8/7/2012 1:02:18 PM
Couldn't make it past the first 2 paragraphs.
Those stories are completely irrelevant to the OP. In the first, you're in a high crime area known for drug trafficking in an alley in your car. In the second, you drove the wrong way down a one way street. There was reasonable suspicion in both cases.
The OP was in an affluent neighborhood walking down the street amongst lots of other pedestrians returning from a store and was (allegedly) stopped by the police for absolutely no reason. Apples and oranges.
It's a shame you didn't make it to the third paragraph where I was stopped in the affluent neighborhood I live in. But different people have different tolerances for the printed word.
Those stories are completely irrelevant to the OP. In the first, you're in a high crime area known for drug trafficking in an alley in your car. In the second, you drove the wrong way down a one way street. There was reasonable suspicion in both cases.
The OP was in an affluent neighborhood walking down the street amongst lots of other pedestrians returning from a store and was (allegedly) stopped by the police for absolutely no reason. Apples and oranges.
I must agree with you. Actually just asking that question gives the fuzz the probable cause to search and destroy. It can be defined as being combative. A cop can certainly search you, and hold you without arresting you just because he thinks something is up. They can make up anything they want.
I have read providers requesting that you write her name on the envelope!! Could you imagine if a cop found and envelope of bennys with a woman's name on it on a lone guy in a neighborhood he does not belong? Your finished.
I think I am done with the envelope thing.
and cheap sunglasses for each appt. It's a 15 dollar investment that he thinks is brilliant for avoiding LE. He puts the donation in the wallet before arriving and then lays the wallet, gum, and sunglasses on the dresser. When they are done, he gets dressed and leaves sending a text to said provider saying, "Babe, I left my wallet and sunglasses over there can you hold on to it til we meet again next week?" I think he is awesome!
Outside in an area know for activity, Cicero Ave, for those familiar with the windy city back in 1987. Got stopped frisked and asked why I was around the area so late. I explained that I was walking back from a bar nearby but I actually was heading to a provider that had asked I come back in an hour and was not heading to my car as I answered to the cop. He said ok but that he was collecting for the "Fallen Brothers" I said ok and made a donation and was on my way.
As the saying goes "Freedom isn't Free"
What a racket but hey I was out foolin around and it could have been much worse.
They don't care about you and the girl, whats your angle?
Ordinarily, the police cannot randomly stop and search you on the off chance that you might be breaking the law. They need "probable cause" / a reasonable suspicion based on something concrete. Is there something missing in the story? As told, it leaves significant questions unanwered.
The probable cause was that the police felt like stopping somebody. They believe that everyone has committed a crime and the job of LE is to find out what it was.
Yes, in theory, the police cannot stop and frisk without probable cause. But in reality and on the street, the guys with the badge and gun can pretty much do what they want. Your lawyer can argue probable cause before the judge, but you really don't want to be before the judge at all. On the street, be polite, be cooperative, but don't admit anything. You do not want to challenge the police unless absolutely necessay.
The only thing that I know of was the way I dress, which is casual. My definition of casual is baggy clothing, which they were suspicious of. That's why the LE had stopped me, which i had cooperate with them
You let them touch you??
No way the they are gonna touch me, if i'm just walking down the street minding my own biz.
Something is just not right with this story.
Since there were a lot of other people walking around either in pairs or more people and I was the only 1 walking by myself, plus my definition of casual clothes is slightly baggy clothes. Which the LE thought I was there doing some suspicious activities. Since this was like around 10:30 at night.
Thank you for telling it as it went down. It is easy to say you should have done something differently... likely you'll do things differently next time... but no one learns anything unless you accurately describe the encounter.
I think it could be that LE was watching her or having recieved complaints, was trying to locate her excat location.
As previously mentioned, I have LONG refused to use an envolupe. I precount the correct donation & secure it with a paper clip in my key pocket.
"Hanging out" near a lady's incall, hotel entrance but not going in, draws attention. I once recieved the attention of a patrol car as I was going into a hotel. The lady told me that LE was patroling the lot at the hotel's request as cars had been broken into. Hotel security is also leery of guys sitting in cars.
I often arrive early, so as to be sure of arriving on time. I then withdraw to the corner coffee, carefully timing my return. I often make the call from the coffee parking... though I have been called on it once. (The lady checked out the window & said "I can't see you." I gunned it & said "I'm the green car pulling up!") Park, lock & go straight in like you know where you are going.
When I'm on a date, I exchange my cell for my hobby phone... carrying 2 phones looks suspicious. Both fit the same carrier.
A few tweaks...
Again, Thanks for your honest comments,
H
if it was your AFT why would you need an envelope. I only use an envelope when its my first time seeing the girl. After they have seen me and know me there is know problem just handing it to them.
Even if it's my AFT or a new provider that I see, I still put in a plain unseal envelope and I either leave it a night stand or some sort, were they can spot it. Before or the end of the session.
If you had read the previous post that had mentioned in the past or the self help guide, it's a terrible idea to hand them the cash or envelope directly, hand to hand. Even some providers has mention it in there ads. So it doesn't matter if it's a new provider or an ATF.
I understood that the envelope was supposed to somehow make it seem more "discreet", and less a financial transaction. Also, the envelope could be casually left in the bathroom, as if it fell out of your pocket. However, if you see someone all the time, then you both know that you are not LE. Therefore, it is, to me, more normal to simply have cash in your wallet. For someone I see often, many times I make a deposit directly into her bank account, so no cash is ever on hand. For others, I leave cash at the end of the session, since we trust each other. To me, the envelope is a red flag if I'm ever stopped, or if, for some reason, the session is cancelled and I have to run home in a hurry. I wouldn't want to try to explain to my wife why I have an envelope full of cash in my coat pocket!
Cash can fall out of my pocket too
I always grab a deposite envelope from the bank ATM...just in case anyone ask why my money is in an envelope... I cam say I'm going to deposite it in the ATM.