Never, ever under any circumstances become a so called "friend" with a provider.
Lesson learned.
Anyone else have any similar stories?
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But boundaries need to stay in place. If men don't have good boundaries, it can make things difficult. What are boundaries? Big word with broad meaning. There are lots of great books on this topic.
Damn boundaries!(shakes fist at sky)
Does this mean your saying no to my marriage proposal Ms.Sparkle?
oh well what's your schedule looking like this week, maybe in the afternoon?
:p
Adsumsparkle, could you explain a bit more about what you mean when you state that clients have become "close friends"? I'm curious because of another situation I'm involved in and I really question if anything beyond a professional relationship is truly possible with a provider. If it's to much to ask for the board, maybe a PM if you wouldn't mind. Thanks
Me too, please, if you wouldn't mind.
I thank God for the close friends, male & female, I've met through here!
It's amazing how things can work when we all play nicely together.
Happy Valentine's Day a little early!
Hugs,
JD
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I would appreciate your recommendation on your favourite book to start with on exploring this subject. Would you either post or PM me, as you prefer 
Hilary is right. It is all about boundaries.
Most successful business people are friendly or even friends with those they do business with.
It boils down to respect and respect of boundaries.
I disagree also, but we need to know about the appropriateness of "crossing the line," most of the time it's not appropriate, but there are exceptios to the rule, if we know the rule.
But, as per the previous post by narcis, it can be different in every situation. There is no hard fast, black and white answer. We should be able to feel if we're crossing a line. We all can learn how to use our 6th sense and be able to tell when to stop texting, emailing, calling, PMing.....We are not married or dating, and if a guy is acting like we are, then that becomes a problem. But, it's different in every situation, so that really is an unanswerable question especially on an internet forum. It really should just be known....as we're all adults and should have learned these things while growing up.
Fluid and flexible boundaries are essential to any good relationship; boundaries set space and distance/intimacy, and everyone's boundaries shift with situations or just how you're feeling at any particular time. Some can tolerate limit-setting more gracefully than others, and this changes too. I know that personally I've had limits set in relationship, and not managed to accept that very well at all. That's usually a clue to me to look within, and see exactly what my expectations have been, and whether they were realistic or not.
As providers, we should be allowed to say, "back away a bit", without getting questioned for it. I think that because we do what we do, boundaries can get VERY MURKY! Guys can get confused....after all, we are sharing something very intimate in that hour or 2 we're together.
If any one of us cannot stay within the boundaries set, that is usually something within OURSELVES, rather than anything the other person has done. Whether we agree with the other person's boundary lines or not, it is still our responsibility to respect the lines drawn.....and THAT is what can ruin friendships.
Exactly! It is in the "nature of the beast" so to speak--in many ways it's an "aritificial" intimacy, or at least a temporary one. So it can be confusing. Yet we are all still responsible for our own parts of behaviors, reactions, interactions, relationships, no matter what the nature of them might be.
I couldn't agree more on the internal side of boundaries. I've been involved with managing contractors for many years. Although the boundaries with contractors are nowhere near as intimate as the provider/hobbyist connection there are still boundaries to be observed. Many of the contractors I've considered friends. That doesn't mean there are no boundaries in the friendship. There have been times I caught myself setting two standards for contractors, one for friends and a seperate, typically higher standard for others. At that point it's time to look within to assure there is equity and emotions are removed from the decision making process. The point I'm trying to make is boundaries are certainly driven more from an internal perspective than external. Case in point, a provider can state their boundaries but if the hobbyist chooses (internal) not to respect the boundaries it becomes an internal choice they made. As with most things in life choices drive most everything. We can choose to respect boundaries or not. The wildcard is emotions.....controlling them can often times be the challenge. Those who make decisions driven more by emotions than logic will likely find it more challenging to respect boundaries.
+1
Most successful business people are friendly or even friends with those they do business with.
It boils down to respect and respect of boundaries.
"Most successful business people are friendly or even friends with those they do business with."
Not really. At least, not in my experience. They certainly aim to create that illusion, but when when someone wants something from someone, they will act a certain way, and if they fail to get what they want, the charade is over, unless they see the potential for a future score. E.G; Sales rep hanging out at a titty bar or a golf course with his client does not = friendship, it's called brown nosing.
Certainly every relationship requires boundaries - for even the most intimate relationships such as a marraige this is true. But as this topic pertains to hookers and johns, I don't see it happening. Granted, I have and have had a number of ho friends, but that is only possible because we met under different circumstances and I never have and never will be, their client.
The "boundaries" that need to be set in such a relationship would make a legitimate friendship impossible. At least by my definition of a friend.
Just a handful of examples:
A. I know where my friends live. I sometimes hang out at their house, as they do at mine. You gonna give your client "friends" your home address? Probably not.
B. I know my friends friends...brothers, sisters, cousins, parents, kids, co-workers - it's my extended circle. You gonna start introducing Joe Hobby around to your peeps? Probably not.
C. We call each other on our shit. Brutal, take no-prisoners, hardcore, feelings-be-damned, honesty. You gonna take that kind of critisism from a motherfucker who pays to lick your clit? Probaly not. Would you even invite him that deep into your personal life for him to have a need to go there? Probably not. Does he even have enough credibility in your eyes to make those type of personal assertions when your gaurd is constantly up waiting for the other shoe to drop - expecting that he wants more than you want to give back? Probably not.
D. Friends don't date. They pay their own way, and sure as shit aren't gonna get anything just for their "time". You gonna lend your personal time off the clock for - helping him move, picking him up when his car breaks down, listening to him bitch about his ol' lady, bar hopping, nonsensical overly introspective conversations about random and often pointless topics for no valid reason, letting his dog out because he's in Vegas fucking hookers, and answering random unexpected calls and texts for no other reason than because he has some shit to say? Probably not.
I could go on, but for what. Me and my fav hookers can be cool, for sure, as I am with all of them. But friends - REAL friends - we will never be. It goes against the nature of the business and all of it's neccessary "boundaries." Take those mandatory boundaries away and you have *gasp* a real fucking relationship, and to me that would be counter to the point of me paying to fuck you in the first place.
Where is that freaking "Like" button? LuckyIrishPrick nails it once again...
Lesson learned.
Anyone else have any similar stories?
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haha similar to what?
Kind of a strange post. Not sure what your getting at. If you are talking about "one" provider than you can't make a blanket statement. If it's happened with several providers then the problem may be yours. Either way sounds like you should use your allotted time with a lady, enjoy it and call it a day when the clock runs down. If you need more, maybe you should get a wife, or a girlfriend.I have a provider pal and it works just fine. At the start it took me a little adjusting because it can be surreal. Now it's all good
I think that HH, Terms, and Narciss have made very valid points regarding boundaries. I'm on board with all of that, and think the preponderance of the hobby community would be too.
My confusion lies in what happened to cause this valuable lesson to be learned. One thing that did come to mind was a line from The Godfather III. "Friends and money......oil and water"?????? Even if not, and a boundary was crossed, were there clearly defined boundaries whether stated or if they were to be intuitive? Were there expectations that went unfulfilled? I do know that unfulfilled expectations can cause much consternation. The real shame of the latter-mentioned are the unfulfilled expectations inherent in some relationships, especially when the expectation was unknown to the person expected to fulfill it.
I think that it would be a help to perhaps all of us if we knew (even in nondescript terms) what happened. Perhaps knowing would really do us a favor so that we too may avoid what seems to have been a bad experience for you.
What jumps out to me in your post, cates, is the underlying theme of communication. The details really aren't important, it's the underlying process, which can be found in everything. If expectations go unexpressed, or if expressed, unacknowledged or unresponded to, what can be a wonderful relational process can become twisted or skewed, and individuals can feel hurt, or confused, or angry, or rejected.
But, I can imagine that you feel exploited in some way. Been there at times as well. While I don't think mine were boundary issues as others have suggested. There is a certain type of provider however that will exploit a guy's fantasy, sucking him into the illusion of being different from other clients and even more of an SO, such that the gift giving along with other forms of generosity become lavish. Sometimes this is accompanied by an agreement of mutual exclusivity, and sometimes that is also an illusion.
So you see without a bit more to go on, its hard to relate to your story but quite easy to imagine the "lesson" you may have learned. Sorry to hear of your woes however.
Yes, if that was indeed the case with the OP, we all can sympathize with him. Was he taken for a ride of some sort, only to be kicked to the curb?
Then the issue of boundaries is null and void. That would be deception and if that's the case, that's a sad lesson you have learned. No one should be mislead and abused
So you see without a bit more to go on, its hard to relate to your story but quite easy to imagine the "lesson" you may have learned. Sorry to hear of your woes however.
Now why does the phrase "impaired reality testing" pop into my head? I do remember reading past threads warning that while on the relatively rare occasion it does work out that a provider and client have a successful transition to a committed relationship, much of the time a client is not thinking through a situation, and balancing the emotion with the cognition. And while, yes, there are providers out there (I've not personally met any) who might fall into the category of "gold-digger" (to use an antequated phrase), it seems to me it would require a rather deep level of naivete or trusting for a client to get "innocently" burned.
All I said was that I learned my lesson not to become a friend with a provider. THAT IS ALL I SAID. Now adsum may be right, but boundaries have to work both ways for whatever the relationship is to work. I may have crossed some boundaries that this provider had in place, but this provider also crossed some boundaries I had in place also. That is one of the reasons why it ended.
We were all just speculating. Isn't that ok with you? We didn't have much info to go on. And we also disagree with the fact that providers can NEVER become friends with clients and vice versa. That is a black and white statement and really is not realistic as all humans behave and interact differently, so to put a hard fast RULE on these types of relationships is down right SILLY!
So, how did this provider cross lines? You are the one that is using a public forum to discuss your problems....so do tell......
I am guessing you cared for her very much. Mind you I said "guessing" I am not going to come to any conclusions over what happened, or offer advice based on assumptions. I respect your right to privacy & don't expect you to share all the juicy details of what brought you to this decision. I recognize that at times we all need to find an outlet just to vent. I am "guessing" once again that was your intention?
Again I am sorry your friendship ended in disappointment.
Well, to bring in another topic that has recently had a run in this forum, the language you used was quasi-incendiary, absolutist, and somewhat accusative/perjorative--"never ever become so called 'friends' with a provider." The words we use to express ourselves do matter. And speaking of lessons learned, as many have learned, once you post something here, you don't get to control the responses people have. For the most part, I've found this thread to be interesting, with good contributions from all.
Many guys can't separate this out as an entertainment venue. Once the lines of reality dissolve you're vulnerable.
Sorry to hear that things went awry.
Without any of the details and only stating 'the lesson', everyone interested has to guess, and fill in the blanks themselves.
The foundations of true friendship are not to be found in this arena.
There are lots of ways these "relationships" can turn bad, some of which have been discussed elsewhere in this thread. Each situation is unique because you have at least one different person involved. Never may be the right answer for you but that doesn't mean it has to be. Given the nature of what we do, friendships are certainly faced with additional challenges in addition to the normal ones. In any event, sorry you have had this misfortune.
MN Gopher, Sorry to hear of the demise of your relationship with Adsumsparkle. Any of us who have spent time with her understand how intoxicating she can be and how easy it is to wish for so much more than a professional relationship with her.
I have a similiar struggle keeping my desire for emotional intimacy incheck with another provider that I've grown very fond of. Seems that if a lady allows us a little extra: be it a little extra time during a session, conversation about personal things, coffee, lunch, drinks off the clock, etc our big heads start to think we have the potential of a girlfriend relationship.
As men, I'm a bit old fashioned and believe our role is to initiate and pursue, care for and about women in our lives and to always cherish and respect them. When a woman says "no" we need to accept that and move on. Perhaps conversation to understand the "no" and to hope for a resolution to the "no" is reasonable but at the end of the day the woman has the final say. It's really not very manly to aire out our disappointment, frustration and feeling of rejection in public. Time to move on. There are many wonderful women around to spend time with for physical intimacy. If you are looking for friends with similiar interests try Meet-Up. If you are looking for a girlfriend try an online dating service.
By the way, this thread's bit of drama is pretty entertaining and I enjoy reading thoughts of everyone. Much better than the "411 on so and so" threads.
What a fascinating conversation on a very real dichotomy with which all of us who play in this arena for any length of time wrestle, and agonize over. This is far and away the most important, useful, thought provokingu and real thread I have seen in the decade I have been visiting this site. Thanks to each of you for your thoughts and perspectives. I hope we can continue this dialog,
When it comes to PERSONAL relationships gone awry, it does not belong on this board, IMHO.
If the two parties involved allowed the hobbyist/provider relationship to become a PERSONAL relationship, they should then keep it between themselves. It's no longer hobby related. This is not the place to be airing ones personal dirty laundry.
Now, if a provider was screwing over every guy she has seen, by all means, post away. But the OP admits he allowed boundaries to be crossed and he himself crossed boundaries. To post here and make it sound like he got fucked over and that it was none of his own doing or fault is ludicrous, IMHO.
Its an internet forum. Newsflash......DRAMA happens on internet forums. It's a place to vent. It's a place to hear all sorts of different takes on a matter. It's a place for lashing out behind a computer screen in the comfort of one's own private bedroom, saying things you wouldn't say in your "outside voice" maybe.
Drama on a forum like this and in an industry like this should not be a surprise and it amazes me that people are constantly surprised by it. It's the nature of the beast after all!!
so all that happened was you got dumped/cut off by a provider. Hell I've been dumped by real girlfriends (one reason I ended up in the hobby) and wouldn't go with never ever have a girlfriend, although this hobby is a decent alternative.
Do other providers offer the CFE (close friend experience) as well and do hobbyist really want this?
I am sorry for your pain as I am sure that part is very real in an otherwise surreal hobby.
Lesson learned.
Anyone else have any similar stories?
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Business relationship. Nothing more. There are providers I like, and I hope I haven't made any terribly mad, but it is a business relationship. Product / service purchased. That doesn't mean I don't respect each and every one of them and it doesn't mean they meant nothing to me, but there is no way I would open the window of emotional involvement (reciprocal or otherwise).
Alantra, I'm your perpetual shill, and others have become my repeat providers. These ladies are far more than conveniences. They are genuine individuals of worth and wonder. Nonetheless, our "relationships" are nothing more than they are. Why would we think it is anything else?
Truth be told (and there's no reason why I am not dead wrong on this), the post originator looked for more than was offered. On the other hand, I'm so full of shit so often that I could be talking out of my ass.
Otis Redding - Sittin' On The Dock Of the Bay
Look like nothing's gonna change
Everything still remains the same
I can't do what ten people tell me to do
So I guess I'll remain the same, yes
Even the OP's posting fails to respect boundaries.
It's only my opinion, but I don't think there is any future in a "friendship" in this hobby.
I have had to remind myself on some occasions that it is an illusion. The good ones are
good at that. Thats why they we keep going back. I really enjoy my time on the clock
with a provider but try to let it go after that except for a thank you, hope to see you again.
more please
Lesson learned.
Anyone else have any similar stories?
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Hmm.....my dirty mind is wandering! winky wink
Again sorry for the late post. Most likely no one will read this this late. I have at least four ladies that I consider good friends outside of the hobby. We pretty much always have something to eat, off the clock after our play time. And yes they insist on pay every other time. I know this is pretty much just wanting some company while eating and having someone to talk to. I also cherish not having to eat alone. I know these ladies real names. But still there are rules that I have followed and will continue to follow. As an example we all like to think we are more than provider and client. Well one lady told me one night that she considers me a good friend and enjoys spending "extra" time with me. Again who doesn't want to think that? Sorta a catch 22 situation. I told her that I belived her because she was to good at the mental aspect of her job to know she didn't have to do as much extra to keep me sniffing after her beatiful little BUTT. Same with the other ladies.