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Is DIY massage legal??

Posted 9/4/2011 at 3:02:44 PM

1 of 22
youngwarrior
I've been to a few massages lately where the providers says its stricly DIY and they don't touch your private area. I've repeated with some of the providers, hoping that they might upgrade the menu for familiar clients, but have had no luck so far. Those of you who have massages probably know the group of girls i'm talking about. I've asked them why its strictly only DIY. The response i've gotten is usually because they want to stay within the means of the law and don't want trouble with LE's. So i'm wondering, is DIY massage really legal? I'm not familiar with massage laws, but a nude girl encouraging you to relase, and you pay her for it. In the beginning its a different experience, DIY, but have gotten the hang of it, and the girls are pretty, plus they are cheaper. But anyone wanna shed light on if its really legal.

 

Posted 9/4/2011 at 4:00:00 PM

2 of 22
its not really legal at all . Neither is topless nude etc sex acts during a massage. Some areas its a felony.
Also an effed law is that its technically illegal to run a massage parlor in mpls.
It has something to do with zoning.
LE doesn't really enforce it because it would take too much effort to shut every single place down.
To me
Its as if they (the DIY's) are trying to say they're somehow better than the HE providers because they don't do it.
Whatever. A ho's a ho .
you might as well follow through .
How is it cheaper?
some of those people charge the same as a FS provider or an HE place.

Quote:
Posted By: youngwarrior
I've been to a few massages lately where the providers says its stricly DIY and they don't touch your private area. I've repeated with some of the providers, hoping that they might upgrade the menu for familiar clients, but have had no luck so far. Those of you who have massages probably know the group of girls i'm talking about. I've asked them why its strictly only DIY. The response i've gotten is usually because they want to stay within the means of the law and don't want trouble with LE's. So i'm wondering, is DIY massage really legal? I'm not familiar with massage laws, but a nude girl encouraging you to relase, and you pay her for it. In the beginning its a different experience, DIY, but have gotten the hang of it, and the girls are pretty, plus they are cheaper. But anyone wanna shed light on if its really legal.


 

Posted 9/4/2011 at 4:00:00 PM

3 of 22
mark.4444
Reviews: 9
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In my personal opinion (I'm not an attorney), Minnesota Statute 609.321, subd.10 seems pretty unambiguous, but note that the intentional touching definition goes both ways and that "intimate parts" is left undefined.

https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/?id=609.321

 

Posted 9/4/2011 at 4:00:00 PM

4 of 22
mark.4444
Reviews: 9
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Subd. 10.Sexual contact."Sexual contact" means any of the following acts, if the acts can reasonably be construed as being for the purpose of satisfying the actor's sexual impulses:

(i) the intentional touching by an individual of a prostitute's intimate parts; or

(ii) the intentional touching by a prostitute of another individual's intimate parts.



 

Posted 9/4/2011 at 8:42:24 PM

5 of 22
youngwarrior
Thanks for more info on this subject. Wow.. that is a really messed up law, so everyone in mpls giving a massage is committing a crime. lol. makes no sense. I don't think the DIY massueses think they are better than the HE providers. Its just their preference and I believe they are probably working under someone, since most of them are located in the same building. Somehow they are all connected and don't want to be involved with LE's coming in. Even if LE's come undercover, they can't bust them b/c its DIY. I think they have it well setup. But the drawback is they ultimately lose customers. Cause Its a fun one time thing(diy massage), unless the provider is 10 material, then its worth repeating.

 

Posted 9/4/2011 at 9:45:08 PM

6 of 22
Actually because its implied, so it still counts in the eyes of LE. They're busted people on less.
You can go call Sgt metcalf (i think thats whos in charge still down there and and ask her yourself if you don't believe me.

Remember the dominatrix that got busted a couple yrs ago ?
She in no way offered extras or any sex. Just legal bdsm services.
Sorry to burst your bubble but doing exchanges (b2b, giving the therapist a massage, the therapist taking his or her clothes off or masturbating during a massage as stated in some of those reviews isn't legal no matter how much you try to play it off.
I wish people would Stop misinforming the public because
someone can get themselves in real trouble by not being discreet.
I've been around for over 15 yrs by abiding to that rule.


Quote:
Posted By: mark.4444
Subd. 10.Sexual contact."Sexual contact" means any of the following acts, if the acts can reasonably be construed as being for the purpose of satisfying the actor's sexual impulses:

(i) the intentional touching by an individual of a prostitute's intimate parts; or

(ii) the intentional touching by a prostitute of another individual's intimate parts.



-- Modified on 9/4/2011 11:11:12 PM

-- Modified on 9/4/2011 11:14:02 PM

 

Posted 9/4/2011 at 10:06:47 PM

7 of 22
Oh they can and ive seen it done before .
If Its not zoned for massage. Most commercial buildings in mpls arent &
what happens is the landlords get citations or written warnings from the city,
not the owners of the parlors That's the only issue.
Since the Rebecca Rand days they're a lot more strict if you get too many complaints from neighbors.
So thank goodness for that not happening.
they also made some additional changes to regulations such as
requiring that parlors have to offer spa services and hold a license for such in order to operate.
So you'll notice several places offer manicures etc.
Its different for other massage places like a massage envy because they have medical back up & take most insurance .

Like I said they don't have the man power or finances to shut every single place down .
Just Be glad we're not in Warren Ohio where they're trying to eradicate all asian parlors even the legal ones.

Another problem with MN backwards laws is there aren't draping regulations so that makes it difficult to tell who's who.
What would be nice is if they just legalized it, let the erotic massage parlors operate in a discreet area of town, be taxed as such and enforce licensing for legit massage in other parts of mpls.
I think it would help the states revenue as well as improve the quality of massages available even possibly drive the cost down since most of the BS will disappear shortly thereafter .
Who knows then maybe they'll get around to fixing pothole ridden nicollet Ave lol

-- Modified on 9/4/2011 11:43:01 PM

-- Modified on 9/4/2011 11:49:58 PM

 

Posted 9/5/2011 at 12:38:21 AM

8 of 22
randomlyoutspoken


Quote:
Posted By: MsDynamite
its not really legal at all .


Are you just blowing smoke here, or can you back that up?  The touching of oneself is not barred under the statute listed below, FYI.

Quote:
Posted By: MsDynamite

Its as if they (the DIY's) are trying to say they're somehow better than the HE providers because they don't do it.
Whatever. A ho's a ho .
you might as well follow through .


A masseuse who doesn't touch you in a sexual manner and doesn't perform sex acts on you or let you perform sex acts on her isn't a "ho."  I don't see how you can logically make that assessment.

Based on your post here and others, I'm guessing that you aren't really a provider, or are a provider who is unhappy with her choice of occupation.  



 

Posted 9/5/2011 at 7:18:52 AM

9 of 22
Actually I happen to love my job otherwise I wouldn't be in it for as long as I have. I also wouldn't have over 3,000 hrs of training & tons of CEU's to back it up.
Here's how one of your fave DIY 's showed an example of how they think they're better than a handjob ho :
A worker from a well know shop came on to a discussion board on another site and bitches about how she didn't want to be reviewed there told clients to quit sexually harassing them yada yada or they'd take legal action, she then went on putting down the ladies that give HE as if we all can't make money unless doing so and that she, her coworkers are somehow better than them because they didn't have to get their hands "dirty" so to speak.


Being on both sides of the spectrum I abide by certain laws and know them well at my other job.
The other thing is I make just as much money doing either one,
I just happen to get bored with the pragmatic routine of legitimate bodywork .

I'm not a research assistant go do your own homework.

Sorry you aren't smart enough to realize that taking your clothes off masturbating yourself,
watching a Guy Jack off isn't legal during a therapeutic massage.
Its still considered to be prostitution to some degree .
So Yes its the same as being a full on ho and not any better if you just went to a parlor that provides HE ++
If it wasn't then they wouldn't be able to bust people based off of a phone conversation like they have.

I could go on about how wording in an ad can help land you in handcuffs too. But that's another thread.

Tantra may be legal and taxable but its same deal,  true tantra practioners/healers dont encourage you to get off like that during session because when you do that, you cant legally charge anyone for it.
I happen to notice people MN have a VERY WARPED perception of what tantra actually is too.

 

Posted 9/5/2011 at 7:53:03 AM

10 of 22
Self massage is perfectly legal. You need to cover your back by stating clearly that monies exchanged are not for sexual act between you. MsDynamite, you do say some very spurious things on this board.

Quote:
Posted By: MsDynamite
Actually I happen to love my job otherwise I wouldn't be in it for as long as I have. I also wouldn't have over 3,000 hrs of training & tons of CEU's to back it up.
Here's how one of your fave DIY 's showed an example of how they think they're better than a handjob ho :
A worker from a well know shop came on to a discussion board on another site and bitches about how she didn't want to be reviewed there told clients to quit sexually harassing them yada yada or they'd take legal action, she then went on putting down the ladies that give HE as if we all can't make money unless doing so and that she, her coworkers are somehow better than them because they didn't have to get their hands "dirty" so to speak.


Being on both sides of the spectrum I abide by certain laws and know them well at my other job.
The other thing is I make just as much money doing either one,
I just happen to get bored with the pragmatic routine of legitimate bodywork .

I'm not a research assistant go do your own homework.

Sorry you aren't smart enough to realize that taking your clothes off masturbating yourself,
watching a Guy Jack off isn't legal during a therapeutic massage.
Its still considered to be prostitution to some degree .
So Yes its the same as being a full on ho and not any better if you just went to a parlor that provides HE ++
If it wasn't then they wouldn't be able to bust people based off of a phone conversation like they have.

I could go on about how wording in an ad can help land you in handcuffs too. But that's another thread.

Tantra may be legal and taxable but its same deal,  true tantra practioners/healers dont encourage you to get off like that during session because when you do that, you cant legally charge anyone for it.
I happen to notice people MN have a VERY WARPED perception of what tantra actually is too.


 

Posted 9/5/2011 at 12:47:47 PM

11 of 22
Oh really? Me Suspicious? An LMT for over 15yrs that takes countless hours of continued education every so often on the very subject and grew up in a family of body workers and chiropractors doesn't know what they're talking about when it comes to any massage laws in any given state ? Hmmmm .
Last I checked the OCAP office has reopened & they tend to frown upon that behavior.

Fyi id be careful where you Jack off if I were you too, as some legit therapists might call LE on you for doing it.
Implication can be just as bad doing the act itself . Ask any provider who's been arrested .

In the link I've added I will mention that most of the time they wont do anything
unless there are a significant amount of complaints against the establishment or the practitioner and that takes a lot of time and effort .






Quote:
Posted By: push_pull
Self massage is perfectly legal. You need to cover your back by stating clearly that monies exchanged are not for sexual act between you. MsDynamite, you do say some very spurious things on this board.

Quote:
Posted By: MsDynamite
Actually I happen to love my job otherwise I wouldn't be in it for as long as I have. I also wouldn't have over 3,000 hrs of training & tons of CEU's to back it up.
Here's how one of your fave DIY 's showed an example of how they think they're better than a handjob ho :
A worker from a well know shop came on to a discussion board on another site and bitches about how she didn't want to be reviewed there told clients to quit sexually harassing them yada yada or they'd take legal action, she then went on putting down the ladies that give HE as if we all can't make money unless doing so and that she, her coworkers are somehow better than them because they didn't have to get their hands "dirty" so to speak.


Being on both sides of the spectrum I abide by certain laws and know them well at my other job.
The other thing is I make just as much money doing either one,
I just happen to get bored with the pragmatic routine of legitimate bodywork .

I'm not a research assistant go do your own homework.

Sorry you aren't smart enough to realize that taking your clothes off masturbating yourself,
watching a Guy Jack off isn't legal during a therapeutic massage.
Its still considered to be prostitution to some degree .
So Yes its the same as being a full on ho and not any better if you just went to a parlor that provides HE ++
If it wasn't then they wouldn't be able to bust people based off of a phone conversation like they have.

I could go on about how wording in an ad can help land you in handcuffs too. But that's another thread.

Tantra may be legal and taxable but its same deal,  true tantra practioners/healers dont encourage you to get off like that during session because when you do that, you cant legally charge anyone for it.
I happen to notice people MN have a VERY WARPED perception of what tantra actually is too.


-- Modified on 9/5/2011 1:53:35 PM

-- Modified on 9/5/2011 2:09:14 PM

Related Link: read

 

Posted 9/5/2011 at 1:30:22 PM

12 of 22
mark.4444
Reviews: 9
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I think most of us can agree that what happens in practice often differs substantially from what is advertised and that municipalities have their quirks. All points understood except for the descriptives/comparisons of who is or isn't outside the law. The law is primitive and deserves our scorn, not providers on any level.

Regarding the statute, as long as you're not having that much more fun than being at home, I think the law is abundantly clear. Yes, we get it ... try proving to LE that nothing outside the statute was going on. (On the other hand, when they make the implication, I suspect that they're usually right.)

The bigger problem is that you don't have to prove anything to LE. You have to prove it in court, a costly and public proposition. (LE knows this and perfectly happy to see the parties go through the plea agreement process.)

PS I've been to court many times (never re LE, not to worry), often pro se (even in district court) and the court looks VERY closely at the statutes and relevant case law. It's basically all they care about. It's the law, after all.

 

Posted 9/5/2011 at 1:40:10 PM

13 of 22

Posted 9/5/2011 at 1:51:24 PM

14 of 22
randomlyoutspoken
Quote:
Posted By: randomlyoutspoken

Based on your post here and others, I'm guessing that you aren't really a provider, or are a provider who is unhappy with her choice of occupation.  

Quote:
Posted By: MsDynamite
Actually I happen to love my job otherwise I wouldn't be in it for as long as I have. I also wouldn't have over 3,000 hrs of training & tons of CEU's to back it up.


To use a word from your post, I was talking about your alleged moonlighting as a "ho."


Quote:
Posted By: MsDynamite

Here's how one of your fave DIY 's...


I have never been to a masseuse-HE, DIY, non-sexual or otherwise.  If you are talking about a well reviewed masseuse, you could be more precise by saying "the boards" (or any number of other things) instead of "your."



Quote:
Posted By: MsDynamite

Here's how one of your fave DIY 's showed an example of how they think they're better than a handjob ho :
A worker from a well know shop came on to a discussion board on another site and bitches about how she didn't want to be reviewed there told clients to quit sexually harassing them yada yada or they'd take legal action, she then went on putting down the ladies that give HE as if we all can't make money unless doing so and that she, her coworkers are somehow better than them because they didn't have to get their hands "dirty" so to speak.

It sounds as if this provider has made a decision not to engage in prostitution.  Since I'm reading what she said as relayed by you, I can't be sure that she actually made the claim that she is better than anyone else.  If she did I wouldn't necessarily agree, but the argument would probably be that people who don't break the law by engaging in prostitution (DIY masseuses in this case) are better than those who do.


Quote:
Posted By: MsDynamite

I'm not a research assistant go do your own homework.

Quote:
Posted By: push_pull
MsDynamite, you do say some very spurious things on this board.


Well said.

Quote:
Posted By: MsDynamite

Sorry you aren't smart enough to realize...

You want to be condescending?  Well I'm sorry you aren't smart enough to use proper punctuation, grammar, capitalization and spelling.


 

Posted 9/5/2011 at 2:20:24 PM

15 of 22
Drumsticks
Reviews: 56
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...and claims victory because they've found the devil in the details and ignored the original context in which it was delivered.

e.g. if you go to your dentist and masturbate in the presence of your dental hygienist, and she files a complaint with the police....you're busted dude!!! I don't get how masturbating in the presence of a CMT or equivalent is any different. The difference is if she files a complaint or is an undercover LE.


'Relax...it's just reflexogy!'

 

Posted 9/5/2011 at 4:00:00 PM

16 of 22
I'm speaking from experience being on both ends of the spectrum in the industry for many many years & not planning on retiring any time soon at that.

IMHO a topless or nude DIY doesnt make it any safer from LE or any more legal
than just getting the full on HE massage based on facts.
MN is one of the most backwards states.


This goes to those sub-aliases,
If you cant post from your own handle then you definitely aren't taken seriously.




 

Posted 9/5/2011 at 7:08:55 PM

17 of 22
randomlyoutspoken
Quote:
Posted By: Drumsticks
...and claims victory because they've found the devil in the details

Where was that done?
Quote:
Posted By: Drumsticks
...ignored the original context in which it was delivered.

And where was this done?
Obviously masturbating in front of a hygienist, or during a therapeutic massage as MsDynamite mentioned above, is illegal.  I don't contend otherwise.

It should be noted that those instances ignore the original context of this thread.  The original context is going to a masseuse who is ok with "DIY."


 

Posted 9/5/2011 at 7:37:24 PM

18 of 22
Drumsticks
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END OF MESSAGE


 

Posted 9/7/2011 at 4:49:55 AM

19 of 22

Posted 9/7/2011 at 3:40:30 PM

20 of 22
Minnesota is the only state in the US that does not have a licensing board, that does not mean that it does not have laws regulating massage. When a person graduates from a massage school in MN they are Certified (given a certificate of graduation). Whereas in other states, after graduation the person is required to also take a test given from the state, then issued a license with a MT#.
Minnesota does not license massage therapist, meaning the state has no record of how many people are working as massage therapists and how many people have graduated from a massage school.  Every county & city in MN has its own laws & regulatations for massage which varies greatly from hours needed to graduate, licensing fees, where to operate a massage establishment and what services are allowed.

I think most people are under the misunderstanding that if the state doesn't license massage therapist that it is not against the law.  It is illegal to perfom a sex act during a massage session. That includes, nudity, erotic touching, topless, etc.  Lets put in in leiman terms, if its not taught in a massage therapy state approved school by law it is not allowed after graduation.


Quote:
Posted By: youngwarrior
So i'm wondering, is DIY massage really legal? I'm not familiar with massage laws, but a nude girl encouraging you to relase, and you pay her for it. In the beginning its a different experience, DIY, but have gotten the hang of it, and the girls are pretty, plus they are cheaper. But anyone wanna shed light on if its really legal.


 

Posted 9/7/2011 at 6:17:37 PM

21 of 22
mark.4444
Reviews: 9
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Regarding "unlicensed complementary and alternative health care practitioners," it comes full circle back the same definitions as in the other ordinance that defines "sexual contact." The Statutes have evolved over the decades and contradictions are rare:

https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/?id=146a.08

"146A.08 PROHIBITED CONDUCT.

Subd. 1. (d) Engaging in sexual contact with a complementary and alternative health care client, engaging in contact that may be reasonably interpreted by a client as sexual, engaging in any verbal behavior that is seductive or sexually demeaning to the client, or engaging in sexual exploitation of a client or former client."

The statute is more expansive than for "prostitutiion," but still not prohibiting DIY. When an act is intended to be prohibited, statutes tend to specify.

In practice, duh, extremely tough to pull off (no pun originally intended), but defensible if words were simply not said or chosen wisely, IMOH, of course.

 

Posted 9/14/2011 at 10:22:26 AM

22 of 22
defdaddy21
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Quote:
Posted By: MsDynamite

I happen to notice people MN have a VERY WARPED perception of what tantra actually is too.


Care to elucidate?  As a student of tantra I am interested in understanding what it means to you and how you perceive it is generally characterized in our fair state.

Thanks!