Do you think paying for sex makes you a misogynist? I'd be interested to hear how both men and women felt about this on here. I think I'll get answers I'm expecting, but I figured I'd ask anyway.

Please don't quote Charlie Sheen and then assume that most hobbyists feel the same way.

Not me. I like the providers I see very much. The ones I haven't seen I have no feelings one way or the other.

and behavior, beyond the mere fact of paying for sex, IMO.

Misogyny is a hatred or dislike of women. I love women. Perhaps some are motivated by dislike; if so, they are misogynist by definition.

Misogyny can show up in behaviors like denigration of women, violence against women, sexual objectification. I don't think I denigrate the women in my life, nor do I condone violence or abuse of any kind.  

Now... sexual objectification? Perhaps. I like to believe that I do not highly objectify; that while sex is part of the equation, I also value personality and respect personal dignity.  

Given the definition of misogyny, and the behaviors that define it... who do you think is misogynist based upon their posts?

Or perhaps, consider the parallel to misogyny - misandry. Isn't it equally likely that a hobbiest or provider is a misandrist as a misogynist? Think about it... the behaviors are the identical, it is only the motivation that differs. Are we all one or the other?

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Granted, it's a business transaction, but that doesn't mean you have to walk in the door with the attitude that money=power and dominance. You can still engage in this hobby with respect and make it mutually beneficial.

Charlie Sheen may not speak for all guys that see prostitutes, but he does speak for a lot of them. Why do you think that quote is used so often?

I certainly don't despise women, but I sure like the ability to see dozens/hundreds/ thousands of them without having any of them get up my ass about "cheating" on them, and lets face it, civvie women are a lot more likely to get up your ass about exclusivity than is a hooker, which is just one of the reasons I love hookers. So yes, in a way even the "nicest" of us is still paying them to leave after sex.

...they started engaging in P4P, and/or they would cease to be misogynists were they to STOP P4P activity?

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I would stay far away from those sordid misogynists....and misandrists.  Not to mention anyone who is classified as a miscreant.

Is it contagious?

Obviously not "everybody" feels this way, but to discount the many, many men who do feel this way just because Charlie Sheen gets the credit for the quote is a bit short sighted.

Do you honestly believe that a large number of men don't feel this way?

Most of the guys in this "realm" are cool people and no more misogynistic than the general populous.  

I can honestly think of only one person off the top of my head (at one time a prolific poster here) whom would qualify as a true misogynist, and I'm not going to say his name because my hopes are high that he's gone for good.  

A lot of the guys think they're better than hookers for sure, but not necessarily women in general.  

Furthermore, if paying for sex is misogynistic, then getting paid for sex is, in turn, contributing to misogyny. And by that logic, giving it away for free is even worse.  

Real talk, though: it's actually a pretty sweet gig. There's no more perpetuation of misogyny in P4P than anywhere else.  

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Feminist theory (as stated by various womyn's studies programs at various ivy league institutions) says that p4p and porn is unquestionably objectification.  Objectification is defined as the treatment of people as objects - like slavery.  And is, therefore, unquestionably misogynistic and EVIL.  QED.

My own opinion is that a subtle distinction has been missed about half way through that argument.  No question that P4P (or porn) by definition is objectification of sex services.  If you can put a price on it - it's an object.  Any service can be defined this way.  Medical consulting services - real estate commissions - lawyering - whatever -  if it's intangible and you put a price on it - you have defined it as an object.  You have "objectified" it.

Now - does this mean that objectification of sex is objectification of women (and, therefore misogyny)?  The answer to that seems obvious - NO - unless, of course, you believe that the only purpose of women is to be a sex object.

Just because I pay for medical services does not mean that I hate doctors... Just because I pay a service provider for services does not mean that I hate women

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Not. P4P. As most men will tell you you pay for it one way or the other. P4P means cutting to the chase and lowering complications most often as well as taking a break for whomever you share your life with, with assured discretion not to mention variety. I mean…it's called play for a reason. When two people decide without outside coercion to play it's not misogyny…it's awesomeness manifest.

...based on some of what I read here, there are some people who I would consider misogynists who are using the hobby as an outlet for their mindset.

To me, paying for it is a way to find the "ultimate" experience, or a variety of experiences that let me enjoy a woman's company, either as a seductress, or a fantasy, or whatever else I may have envisioned, but those pursuits don't keep me from seeing providers as women deserving of respect, care, and consideration. Some might consider me a pushover, since I've paid for the time, but I see her time and her intimacy as valuable things. In fact, if she doesn't value them, if she sees it as simply time being paid for, she's not the provider I want to see.

OTOH, there are probably guys out there who are full of self-loathing and use women or use paying for sex as a way to confirm whatever low opinions they have of themselves. It's all about how you approach it.

I pay for the access to a special brand of attention that only an experienced provider can... provide, and if I don't respect the woman whose attention I'm paying for, I'm not getting what I came for.

Dating, courtship, engagement, marriage and divorce cost a man a quantifiable fortune. Wardrobes, bling, pricey 4 wheeled penises and frequenting trendy social venues so as to be a hip, cool happening fool only add to the aforementioned "fortune" spent.    

 There is no free pussy. Too think that there is simply makes one delusional.

This arrangement is really simple, why do some folks wish to complicate this?

I want to get laid, but I don't want to play the stupid dating game to get laid by some below average looking woman who's idea of sex is to lie on her back and open her legs. And then have to deal with the bullshit. I want to get my world rocked by a pretty woman who I already know does the things I like a woman to do, and then she or I leave.  

Why do we need to be anything more than horny guys who are willing and able to pay for it directly?

why do

Because I can't find anywhere that I or Robin ever claimed that Charlie Sheen spoke for EVERYONE, but I sure as hell can show you where  you misquoted both of us.

I would advise that you simply quit while you are behind, and that appears to be what you are doing. Or you could just be a man about it and admit you got this one wrong,  Would that really be so hard?

Wish I was there. If you go back in the fall, I'll likely see you there. As you so eloquently said "wash, rinse, repeat", that's awesome.

I love women, they tend to be more interesting to me than men, and I can have sex with some of the women.  If I could get similar quality sex without paying for it, I'd be all over that in a heartbeat.  Unfortunately, I'm at an age where I can't compete with the 30-somethings in the bar scene or online.

I sense that you think that because a guy has to (or chooses to) pay for it, that he resents the provider.  I can see where some might, but those are sick puppies.  I've liked almost every provider I've been with.  There are some I admire (hello, Aria), some I feel some sympathy for since their employment options in other fields must be quite limited and one that I could easily develop a deeper relationship with if I'm not careful.

But hating them because they provide a service that I pay for?  That's pretty stupid.

There are a couple I would like to stay around as long as they like.  One that I'd let move in if she quit seeing other guys.

And I don't think there are too many of us that think we are any better than hookers, honestly, we need you as much or perhaps more than you need us.

You'll probably have no idea how much you've helped men like myself.

yes, not saying this your case, but the ladies help pedophiles and rapists deal with their urges so they can control theses urges instead of taking them out on girls and women, so they protect them.  that is underrated aspect of this i think.

also, the power is with female, so no misogyny here in business itself.

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Not a pedophile or a rapist, but I like to get laid. And, if it weren't for theses lovely ladies I'd have to settle for a woman that I could attract, or a gold digger. I don't want to settle for either one of those two choices and I certainly don't care to have to romance either one of those choices. So these ladies help me to not have settle, and I don't have to work at it to get laid.

I get what I want, she gets wha she wants, it's simply perfect.

has her own location and has you ask ya'll to leave...which I'm real bad at anyway!

Steph xoxo

As some of the other guys have mentioned, I too have liked just about every provider I've been with. Certainly some more than others. The very few I didn't like we're early on in my hobby career when I had seen a few BP girls and I simply just didn't see those girls again. No hard feelings, just never went back to them.

I think it's cool to like the women you are intimate with, just as long as you don't cross the imaginary line.

There are men who don't pay for sex who hate women as well as a few who do pay hate women.  

I would think the same goes for the ladies who hate men who hook, some ladies who don't hook hate men.

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This is an adult game, we both know the rules/parameters, so I think a woman should not have to tell me when times up. After all I learned how to tell time a very long time ago. It's funny to me because I often read in reviews "she is not a clock watcher", well I am the clock watcher. I want to know how much time is left, so I know when to get the action started again for round two or round three (easy ladies, I rarely book for less than two hours and I can get three in 2 hours).

It's a shame you have to hint to a guy that his time is up, but I suspect people try to take advantage of others in every environment. If a lady rocks my world, I especially don't want to take advantage of her because I'll want to see her again.

You just happened to post at an inopportune time for me. And no, you didn't say everybody, I said that. If you go back and read the posts in sequence you'll see.

It was a very surrealist morning, and because of your post popping up when it did, I lost a bet and had to proclaim myself The Pope of Manginas. On the board. in the header. It was funny for a couple of us hovering over the iPod, but beyond that...nothing important.

Except I lost the bet. But no hard feelings. You didn't know what your defense of Robbin and Charlie was doing.

Enjoy Costa Rica...as apparently you are.

Thinking you're better than the whore your paying, is. Acting like you're entitled to any damned thing you want because you're paying, is. Paying, and then turning around and denigrating hookers, is. Believing you know how to run her business, or set her personal boundaries better than she does, is. Assuming women who willingly engage in sex work need to be saved from themselves, is.

A simple transaction, exchanging money for a service? nope

What camp or you in on that topic hotplants?

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Everything requires context. Everything about labels is about what your intention is in using them.  

I refer to myself as a dyke all the time. So do my friends. Doesn't bother me one bit. A complete stranger, OTOH, does not get an automatic pass on this. And, that's not because I'm the PC police. It's because it is a label that has historically been used as an insult. If an old friend is calling me a dyke, the context changes.  

The fact that some of you guys are so insistent about 'your right' to call women on this board "hookers"...women you do not know...is what gives the impression that you are trying to be insulting. It's out of context.  

But, honestly, even then, if you stopped making such a big deal out of it, it would hardly be noticeable

It would be out of context for me to call the girl fetching my burger and fries at McDonald's a hooker. But to throw it around here makes sense to do so since b/c thats what they are.

I do think the context of any particular sentence and the anger portrayed in the post, e.g. "Listen you dumb fucking hooker...." can be out of line.

But calling girls hookers in general, on a fk board, nah, I dont see that as insulting and very few of the hookers here take offense to it, and many use the word themselves, which is important to note as well.

I guess its kinda like calling the team in DC, the Redskins. No insult there at all. Its a word of pride, bravery and honor. But the PC crowd is all abuzz on that word, you might have heard. Not sure when that word became offensive.  

Curious as to how the softer, weaker guys here think about it and if it makes the men who use "hookers" to be haters of women.

Thanks HP!

-- Modified on 7/6/2014 1:58:25 AM

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You can make every action, word and deed from a male misogyny. This is the main reason, you cannot have honest conversation because, anything you say could be held against you.

But, I don’t think P4P is though, because you are not forcing. You are just exchanging money for sex. It is pure commerce.

Not getting into pimps and trafficking which I strongly believe is cruel, inhumane and driven by poverty above all.

For me it's the "drama free" aspect that I like. The last "civi" I dated seriously misjudged my tolerance for BS and made the mistake of going off on me for some imagined slight. I showed her the door. Providers don't (or shouldn't) do that. I absolutely adore women. I just don't want to live with one. So yes, the hobby provides the perfect solution in that I get to enjoy company when I want ... and only when I want without all the drama.

ook, I'm not suggesting one should never use "hooker". I use hooker sometimes. But, you said it yourself: "I do think the context of any particular sentence and the anger portrayed in the post, e.g. "Listen you dumb fucking hooker...." can be out of line".  

As far as "Redskins": From your perspective there is "no insult there at all". Are you sure? Where I come from redskin is name used by white people as an insult; and is usually preceded by: 'dirty', or 'dumb, or 'drunk'. This has not suddenly become offensive (to some)---I was well aware of the meaning behind it as a child.  

At the same time, not all Natives Americans feel the same way. In fact, some NA's (that I know---some in my family) laugh at 'Native American', and refer to themselves  as Indians; and, more generally, prefer no distinction be made at all.  

If I joking call one of my cousins a redskin, or halfbreed, or chief they know, with absolute certainty, that my intent is irony, not insult. If some random guy at the bar does the same, he might end up with a beer bottle cracked over his head.  

Since I have no way of knowing how someone else feels about any, potentially, racially/sexually derogatory or 'charged'  label, unless I happen to know that person well, I default to neutral.  That cost me absolutely nothing. And, it has nothing to do with being 'softer or weaker'.  

Unless, of course, I'm TRYING to insult them...lol...

but I can't disagree with a single word he just said.

I do notice a certain number of "hobbyists" who do seem to resent the fact that they "have to" pay to get a little strange. and those guys certainly come across as misogynists to me, but I hardly resent the few bucks I shell out to have the sex life of a rock star. If it costs ten times as much, I am pretty sure I'd still do it, but I might start resenting it at that price. lol

I resent that I don't have more money!