Californian, my father like figure. what can we do? I don't have mush faith in Mr Bush. (this isn't an endorsment for the democratic party).
Thank you for your reply.

  My first time posting and unfortunately it has to be on such a
divisive subject matter.  End the war in Iraq??  Even after this war go to most high schools in this country and see how many kids can find Iraq on the map.  Just think how easy it will be to manipulate the next generation.  It is a politicians dream to have an uninformed public.  Ask those same kids to name every reality show, every new rap album, the daily line up on MTV, and not a single one will falter.  And now here you are talking about Iraq, foreign policy and other such irrelevant nonsense About 70% of the public still believe Saddam was behind 9-11, good luck trying to talk some sense  You can only do so much friend!!

Worldwide anit-American propaganda was worse before September 11 than during the peak of the Cold War. Perhaps you are too young to remember air raid sirens in your neighborhood and "duck, cover and hold" drills in elementary school. I remember.

http://www.heritage.org/Research/MiddleEast/EM780.cfm

This could be your office building. Or your wifes. Or father's.
http://student.dei.uc.pt/~trindade/WTC/pictures/graphic/914_fall5.jpg

Can you imagine anything like this happening in the USA?
http://www.hrw.org/press/2003/05/iraq051303.htm
http://www.9neesan.com/massgraves/

I don't care if you are a communist or a plutocrat or a scientific monarchist.... The key to liberty is freedom. The best framework for people to live in freedom without fear is the Constitution of the United States. Enemies of the United States, both foreign and domestic seek to destroy these freedoms.

Look at the actions of the people you choose to support. Think about how their actions effect you and will effect your children and vote accordingly. Think and vote.




-- Modified on 12/27/2003 9:51:16 PM

*

. Wake up you pacifist idiots, this is war to the death, better them then us.

i am no pacifist. i am a realist. I look at things from nearly every angle.
Do you really believe we can get everyone who hates us. I believe we are just creating more and more people who will come to despise us.

i'm guessing the person who put up this web page wanted to manipulate you into thinking certain thoughts (just like Al Jazeera does by showing images the American media would not)

maybe you should look at pictures of half a million Kurdish women and children gassed with nerve agents by Saddam or the million or so of Iranian "boy soldiers" killed with chemical weapons by his generals





Singleton, you should be ashamed of yourself.. Accusing me of manipulation. The truth is we don't belong in Iraq. They were never a imminent danger to the United States.
we attacked because they are considered an imminent danger to Israel. war mongering Israeli influences are what brought us into this mess. We are being used.
We didn't enter the war to "free" or provide a "democracy" for the Iraqi people. That is just spin control.
We entered apon the false belief that Iraq had weopons of mass destruction and ICBM's that could reach our shores. This was a flat out lie. In the weeks following, the reason swiched to "operation iraqi freedom". What a bunch of bull. We don't really care about the iraqi people.
Of course war has casulties. I wasn't trying to imply otherwise.
We cannot afford to keep this up. we are bankrupting our kids future for another country. Our national debt is skyrocketing. I essence the interest on the debt goes to Israel. Israeli agents around the world control the world banking systems.
It is a slow decay of this country. An involuntary surrender of our resources.
We are being attacked by terrorists not because they "hate our frredom and way of life", but for a few reasons;
1, we support the Saudi government which is opposed by over 65% of the Soudi Populace. We give them plenty of money and support. Why? because they are in bed with the Bush family. Or vice verca. One big oil circle jerk comint at the expense of Saudi's and Americans.
2, we support Israel financially and militarily. Israel uses this money and cheap\free weaponry to invade, terrorize, and and steal land from their neighboring countries. What do you expect from these people? (terrorists) we are supporting the people who kill and steal from their brothers ind the Middle East. Wouldn't you go after the people who are supplying your enemies with the tools that help them construct your demise?
Makae know mistake, I don't support crashing planes into America, or killing Americans. But ihave taken the time to understand why.
You Singleton are trying to manipulate like our government the peoples thinking that this is a just military exercise. It isn't. It only benefits Israel.
The bottoom line is that Iraq holds the 2nd largest oil reserve. Israel wants this oil. they are using us to break the bacs of the iraqi's and are covering it up with this BS about Iraqi terror.

-- Modified on 12/28/2003 8:14:24 AM

Well said, Singleton.

Unless you've been in a war zone, it's pretty hard to talk about it realistically. No one likes war, but sometimes our freedom depends on those who sacrifice themselves for that freedom. I, especially, hate to see innocent people hurt, but think how many we may save from the sadistic hands of a man and his sons who enjoyed ripping fingernails off of pregnant women, raping them, cutting out tongues . . . need I go on?  Horrible autracities happen in every country, to include our own. The United States has to maintain a stronghold in this situation, especially after what happened on 9/11. You cannot pull out of a country immediately after a dictator falls. You cannot leave the people without a government, without roads, without supplies, etc. I think it's important to have other countries support and it worried me when we didn't, but look who turned their backs on us when we saved their butts twice. Interesting how people want help when they're desperate, but then accuse us afterward when it's not politically correct. Look how the pilgrims gained help from our Native-American friends when they were starving and half their population died . . . only to force religion down their throats and slaughter them later.  Makes you think, doesn't it?

Hugs,
Ciara

You won't find this information on that site either. If America was so worried about the Iraqi people why are we letting Iraqi's slaughter other Iraqi's without intervention??
Here is a link that tells what is going on. If you care about the Kurds then you should care about all people, after all two wrongs don't
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article5432.htm

Wonderfully said Light.  I was almost in tears by the time I finished reading your post.  I too was troubled by the decision to go in, but now feel that we're obligated to stay the course for the EXACT reasons you describe.

As I've mentioned before, (hopefully this won't be taken as bragging) I spent some of the best years of my life as an Army Ranger and special operations soldier.  I've been the spearhead at the point of darkness a few times, and usually in situations that really highlighted the tough moral issues of balancing loyalties to morality, patriotism, democracy, global citizenship.  My job NEVER involved deploying into situations where the moral boundaries or justifications were clear-cut, that's not where you send special ops soldiers.

Every time I left I knew that my soul would ultimately have to pay the price for whatever gray areas I ended up in, that the typical US citizen was disenfranchised from responsibility for my actions--either because of ignorance/apathy, or because the administration acted against the will of the people.

Every time I came home, I encountered two kinds of people.  One group was busy playing superficial grab-ass games like Dixie-Chick boycotts, and that reality hurt me and my fellow soldiers more deeply than you could ever know--it left us alone to accept responsibility for the moral dilemma of our actions.  The other group--the Lights and the JackVances of the world were engaged in the underlying debate.  "Why are we doing this?  Should we be doing this?  I'm going to spend some time thinking about this, talking to my neighbors about this, just participating in the debate."  No experience in my life makes me more proud to be an American, more in touch with my own patriotism, less troubled by my actions, than meeting someone in that second group.

It makes NO difference to me whether you're for or against, just as long as you're participating in the dabate about the underlying moral issues instead of the superficial issues.  Just knowing that back home, there's people really struggling with the role of America, struggling with the moral dilemmas our foreign policy so often creates, makes being a soldier worthwhile.

But then again, I could be wrong.

-- Modified on 12/28/2003 1:03:36 AM

As much as I was opposed to the war in the first place, and I was as adamant in my opposition as anyone, we can not pull out right now.  We have a moral responsibility to rebuild the government in Iraq.  Our government is going about it all wrong, but none the less we have a responsibility.  

Even if it were not the moral responsibility, there is a real security reason to insure the stability of Iraq.  Instability leads to poverty, and extremist groups love poverty.  There is no place easier to recruit than amongst people who have nothing to lose


Light, thank you for taking the time to respond.
While I agree we should form some type of fair government in Iraq, I feel the longer we stay the more we will be viewed as occupiers, and not deliverers of freedom.
I cannot comment on the "government is going about it in the wrong way" comment beause I don't have an answer for the way we should go aabout this.
I will refer to the elders on this board for their opinions.

..perhaps we would not be faced with what appears to be an almost overwhelming task with no apparent end in sight. It becomes increasingly apparent that there was little real planning for the post combat mission in Iraq.

Yes our military displayed its prowess in undertaking a mission
against a large standing army and routing that army quickly.
I totally support our troops in Iraq. They performed the mission they were ordered to execute. I am a veteran myself of another ill conceived war undertaken by our government--Vietnam.
The troops deserve and need our support.

It is our foreign policy that is very much misguided. I too adamantly opposed the war in Iraq. Saddam, while he was in power was a brutal thug responsible for the deaths of tens of thousands. Is the world better off with Saddam out of the picture? Certainly I think the answer is yes, but it is the people of Iraq who ultimately are better off in the sense that
this brutality is far less likely to touch their lives.
Unfortunately it has given way to a great deal of chaos, uncertainty, and the continued threat of danger albeit on a far smaller scale than they suffered at the hands of Saddam.

I am still convinced that we had Saddam in a box with the 24/7
overflights of the no fly zones. The UN weapons inspectors, although they found little in the way of WMD were helping to keep Saddam off balance with respect to his efforts at development and deployment of such weapons. Yes he would still be in power if we had continued to follow that strategy but he was largely neutralized.

It can be something of a powerful "emotional" argument to say that "we got him" and play on that as making the world a safer place. I find little solace in Saddam's capture with respect to
the security of the US and the threat of terrorism.

Osama bin Laden is still as elusive as ever. Al Qaeda operations in Afghanistan and along the Pakistani border are still able to function on some level and they are apparently still able to hide assets in many places around the world.
Al Qaeda and bin Laden were then, and are now, still a far greater threat to the security of the US than Saddam ever was by any stretch.

So we are still faced with a very credible threat from terrorist elements spread over many countries. Despite the very commendable work done in the intelligence community to capture Saddam I'm afraid our intelligence capabilities with respect to Al Qaeda and other terrorist threats is decidedly lacking.
Unfortunately it is those terrorist elements that remain the greater threat to our security.

Now beyond trying to deal with these various terrorist threats, we have embarked on what amounts to nation building in a nation that is an artificial construct of the colonial era. Just as in Vietnam we have little real understanding of the culture and people of Iraq. We presume that they would be thrilled to be a carbon copy of the USA with our style of democracy. That is simplistic to say the least. See the post below by Unseenrain.

I would like to believe that our government's purposes and motives for going into Iraq were of the highest order both moral and ethical. However I don't see it that way. There are any number of other countries headed by brutal regimes that are
still functioning. North Korea is an example. There is of course
no oil in North Korea. Just the third largest standing army in the world and a few nukes. A far more formidable target than Saddam and perhaps a far greater threat to its own people and to our national security.

I very much worry for our troops in Iraq. They are faced with a difficult post combat mission for which they are inadequately trained and not well suited to undertake. Our government should have been far more willing and patient with diplomacy, with getting the UN and the international community behind the effort in Iraq. If that had been the case we would be far better positioned to deal with the post combat phase of this very difficult problem we are faced with now.

As much as I struggle with what is happening in Iraq I would agree that we can't simply pull out and leave a power vacuum
to be filled by various factions bent on destroying one another.

If our government can be less confrontational with our European
allies I think we have a far better chance of achieving a somewhat positive outcome in Iraq.

I am convinced that it is going to be a long, arduous, and expensive undertaking with the outcome far from certain.


-- Modified on 12/28/2003 10:21:36 PM

-- Modified on 12/28/2003 10:30:14 PM

The argument made is that we need to have a sword pointed ready to strike any bastard that supports, nurtures, harbors, and aids terrorists in any capacity.  Just look at all the pics of half a million kurdish women and children gassed.  
 Why only look at selective excerpts of history??  Who was it that aided, nurtured, and supported Saddam, the oppressive Shah, the family of Saud, Pinochet, Suharto, and countless other terrorists around the world for the last half of the 20th century.  Following public condemnation, Rumsfeld secretly visits Saddam to ensure him that we want to strengthen diplomatic ties and are willing to overlook his use of chemical weapons.  OH NO IM A UNPATRIOTIC COMMIE TRAITOR FOR SUGGESTING THAT OUR POLITICIANS CAN BE HYPOCRITES AND CRIMINALS AS WELL.  
 This is not an anti U.S. message.  Our great nation defeated Fascism and Communism in Europe by destroying every last dictator on the continent.  Our purpose was noble and just in Europe.  Turn to the Middle East and we have an era where only for the purpose of securing oil we helped overthrow democracies, and supported countless oppressors who destroyed entire societies.  We need true courage and a bold vision to break the blackmail monopoly the oil industry has on our politicians and the global economy.  As long as we are dependent on oil our children in uniform will have to die in wars we will live under the treart of terrorism.  There is no way around it.

I have read all the comments here and I generally agree with both sides. However, one thing I have learned in life is that everything is subject to change.

The Middle East may be a paternalistic society. However, that doesn't mean that Iraq can not, and should not establish a democratic form of government that works.

I come from a long line of people who served in the military. I would have as well were it not for health reasons.

Saddam had to go, and although I cringe when I see the headlines everyday we can't just pack up and leave now. We did that in Somalia and look what happened. Furthermore, while we need to set up schools, and hospitals, etc, we need to agresively persue this war. If we can take a lesson from Vietnam, "hearts and minds" did not work, or did not work as well as we had hoped.  If nothing else we owe it to those who have already died to finish the job. I just wish that Gw's dad had had the balls to tell the rest of the  world to fuck off back in 91 and finish the job then. Now we are paying for it.

Do I wish that we might find some WMD's? Sure, but from what I have been able to put together Saddam could have been Hitler's stand in. I have no military training of any kind, but it seems that we are now starting to prosecute this conflict the way we should, ie more agressively.

I live in a townhouse. For many years, before they moved an Iraqi family lived next door. Turns out that they had an older daughter still living in Iraq. In 2000, that daughter died, how I don't know. I was very good friends with the eldest son. I asked him if he was going back for the funeral. He looked at me, and calmly told me that he would like nothing more, both to pay his respects, and to see his homeland once more. However, as long as Saddam was in charge he and his younger brother, AND his father who at the time was pushing 80 could not return, unless they wanted to be thrown in jail, or maybe against a wall.

Today, all of them can return if they choose to.

Right or wrong, good bad or indiferent we need to finish what we started. Even so plan on us being there for at least two or three more years.

Happy New Year