I have been severely criticized on this board for my low ratings (which I think people get too caught up in numbers, versus the actual words written in the reviews) and treating this hobby purely as a business; devoid of any human element and compassion.
I do not write this to extol my virtues, but, let me say, that in my opinion, I am EXACATLY the type of gentleman any provider would want to see. I am a professional businessman, late 30's. In contacting the ladies from the beginning I am discreet in my approach and make them feel at ease. I know it is extremely important to a provider that they have to be 100% comfortable before inviting a complete stranger into their home. I have no problem giving them any verification they require for their safety and comfort (work number, reference, etc.) I have NEVER not shown up for an appointment. When I walk in, I follow all the protocol involving the donation. I engage in friendly light banter with the ladies before proceeding to the main event. In leaving, I always thank them for their time, and usually with a nice hug I am quietly out the door. I do not linger around past my time, nor do I ask that the ladies to compensate me any way (i.e. a free 1/2 hour, etc.) I understand that their time is money and out of respect to them I do not take advantage.
I do not call a provider at all after the session, unless I am making a repeat appointment. I do not send flowers, bring gifts, because that would give the appearance (to me at least) that our client/provider relationship is anything more than business
The fact that I view hobbying as a business does not mean for one split second that I do not treat these ladies with the utmost respect and professionalism during our time together.
I would think that this is what every provider would want. A professional gentleman who exhibits class and respect while he is there, but once the session is over, does not think their time together was anything more than business. I do not feel its appropriate or fair to try and extend our relationship to anything beyond that.
Unless, of course I am all wrong about this hobby, and that providers want to have their clients fall in love with them and for them to fall in love with their clients. However, I am willing to bet the proverbial ranch that this is not the case.
-- Modified on 8/27/2007 6:01:39 AM
-- Modified on 8/27/2007 6:03:28 AM
but on the subject of review scores, I always check out the ratings that a hobbyist has given out in order to know how to judge what he means.
By looking at Hardy's scores, I wouldn't hesitate for a moment to see a provider with 5's, while with another reviewer I would probably nix the idea.
It's all relative, and that's why you need the VIP status to know how to judge the scores.
There was a thread on this topic not so very long ago. Seems to me that providers value guys who:
o make appointments in advance, show up on time (NOT early)& leave on time
o pay close attention to personal hygeine
o don't try to negotiate (rates, services, etc)
o don't ask too many personal questions (she'll tell you what she wants you to know)
o are respectful, courteous & know how to stay on the right side of the line (no follow-up phone calls "just to chat", excessive e-mails, etc)
Remember, providers are independent business women & like to make to make money with as little effort as possible - like any other business person. In additon, they are people with the same kinds of feelings as the rest us. I try to treat the ladies I meet as I would any other woman I would want to impress. . .
while i certainly understand your point about not confusing this with a romantic relationship, and while i certainly would never want a client to develop romantic feelings for me, i also do not take the "just business" approach either. that to me is cold and also not entirely accurate. this is not first and foremost a "job" for me. actually, i do not see it as a job so much as i do a passionate hobby, and the fulfillment of a long-held erotic fantasy. i am not doing this to pay the bills. if i were, i wouldn't be so selective and so low volume, and certainly would have higher rates. so this hobby does not center around the financial for me, by any means.
with that said, my ideal client is one who i can have something of a casual friendship with, who was respectful of my time, but who also feels free to drop me an email or call every now and again just to say hello or let me know how they're doing. someone who only contacts me when they want to set up another appointment is telling me that they want a cold, emotionless relationship and that's something i just cannot do. also Hardy, someone like yourself would never even make it through my initial selection/screening process, because i focus not just on safety but on personality, to see whether or not i would be compatible with a particular person. likely the only information you would provide is proof of identity and what days and times you'd prefer to make an appointmet. the emails i get like that (listing a name, a couple of provider references, and telling me that want a date at such and such a time) are instantly deleted. i would want to know YOU, who you are, what you need, what brought you to me, etc. likewise i'd want you to know me. this is all possible without crossing the line of true emotional intimacy.
What you write makes absolutely no sense. If you are not doing this for the money, and its a passionate hobby, WHY DO YOU NEED TO CHARGE ANYTHING? Why not just develop a few friends with benefits? I.e. have a few guys that you like, go out with them as friends, and then have sex with them FREE OF CHARGE???? You can certainly live out any erotic fantasy. Oh, but you wouldn’t do this because the money is nice. Therefore you enjoy the client/provider relationship which at its very CORE is an exchange of MONEY for sex.
Second, what you say in your post, draws at the heart of the client/provider relationship; and that is the issue of boundaries. You expect your clients to call and chat and just see how you are doing? Well, Lilli, since you want to be friends with your clients on some level, do you go out with your clients in a non-paying situation? If the answer is yes, you have already crossed the line; and as such it is no longer a client/provider relationship. You have now become friends, there is no exchange of money for sex, and therefore you are no longer client/provider.
As an aside, Lilli, I have no idea where you are geographically located (since you didn’t leave a link to any website), so I don’t know if our paths would ever cross, but I GUARANTEE you, I would make it through your initial screening process. In my E-mails or calls to a provider, I will give them as much information as required (including where I work and what I do, what sports I like, what stocks I invest in, etc.). I am extremely polite, professional, and respectful in my pre-discussions with a provider and have NEVER EVER been turned away from a meeting. For you to make a conclusion as to what information I would give to a provider or that I would be a mechanical heartless robot devoid of emotion is an insolent and careless conclusion to draw.
-- Modified on 8/27/2007 7:35:39 AM
-- Modified on 8/27/2007 7:37:07 AM
does he have NO WHITE LIST REFERRALS?????
My understanding of the white list would be that the provider would actually have to know who they have just seen in order for them to vouch for you.
I dont get to know any of the providers I see enough for them to actually know who I am and moreover what my TER handle is, in order for them to place me on a white list. How can they vouch for me when they have no idea what my handle is???? I don't leave a session and tell them, "Hey, you just saw, Hardy5456, how about vouching for me on TER?" Right, doesnt happen.
-- Modified on 8/27/2007 7:53:18 AM
Hmmm....you say you give ladies all the information they ever ask for in the screening process...but then you say you have never given out your board handle?
You mean no ladies have ever asked what your TER user name is?
Damn. I know a lot of ladies like to know a prospective client's user name to see his reviews or his posts, if for no other reason to see what he likes and better be able to provide that.
Yet...if all of your statements can be believed as true, then no lady has ever inquired as to your user name...because you said you are perfect and give everything they ever ask for.
Also, a bit odd would be the idea that with 61 reviews no lady ever got a new review and figured out you were the client that wrote it? Your sessions must be amazingly nondescript to not have any recognition factor for any lady you have reviewed.
Not a single lady has your user name?
Damn.
If you are such a great client why do you not want them to know who you are on TER?? It's a fake name, why the need to hide your fake name??
Could it be that if women knew it was you they would want nothing to do with you? That's just sick.
If it's just a business then you shouldn't care if they know who you are and what kind of person you are. That sounds pretty sleazy to hide and then see them anyway. Nothing personal, but you are the exact type of client I pray I never ever meet.
-- Modified on 8/27/2007 7:37:02 PM
I love your posts. I don't always agree but I do enjoy the enthusiasm you assign to your thoughts and words.
The "friends with benefits" arrangement you suggest Lilli should engage in is often a recipe for unintended complications. I know when I am having sex with my friends, the girls tend to get clingy and expectations for a relationship with them is often a discussion point I'd rather avoid.
Or maybe it's the other way around...lol. I'm guessing that Lilli might be avoiding this inevitable consequence of the "friends with benefits" situation as well...just a guess though.
That isn't usually an issue in the pay for play arena. Boundaries are created. Participants generally understand the unwritten rules and know what they are there for. Certainly, friendships can and do result from business meetings of all sorts involving financial transactions. Nothing wrong with that. But the money creates boundaries that both parties can fall back on. If Lilli gets off on the thrill of charging selectively for her services, then why deny a girl her particular kink.
I know a girl who has a trust fund from her grandfather. She truly has the "bad girl" fetish and follows a similar business model that Lilli describes. Money is not nor ever will be her motivation for pay for play. Clearly, money is the motivating factor for the majority of working girls but don't be so quick to assume all things for all the ladies.
I am certain of 2 things. No, 3. Death, taxes and the fact that just when I think I know it all I learn something new.
-- Modified on 8/27/2007 8:42:00 AM
...for bringing up a very valid point i left out, which is that the money does also serve the purpose of creating a clear boundary, whereas most repeated "civvie" encounters inevitability lead to drama and unhealthy emotional attachment on at least one side of the fence.
this is one more beautiful thing about the hobby...it gives one the freedom to be close, to be open and real while satiating erotic needs and desires, but within a safety net.
Folks might get the idea I'm a shill for you...lol. So be a good little sub, bend over and spread em- you need a good spanking--
Hardy, the conclusions i draw are only based upon your own words and the impression you give when you post here. you say, "i will give them as much information as required," in reference to the initial screening/getting-to-know-you process. that in itself is a cold, business-only approach, which works perfectly fine for providers who wish to take that route (which would probably be the majority honestly). however it would not work for me because this is not a business interview for me, there is no set list of questions i ask or specific answers i look for. i just wish to get to know a gentlemen, to not only learn something about him, but to see whether or not we have chemistry and if i am the right girl to suit his particular needs. i do not wish to see just anyone with cash and proof of i.d. i want to see people i will enjoy serving and who will enjoy me.
the men i see have told me time and time again that my approach and manner are unlike any other provider they have ever encountered...that it's much more warm, personal and laidback than anything to which they have been accustomed. i also realize that there are great deal of gents out there, and likely you Hardy would be among them, who would not find my way at all desireable or comfortable and would not wish to see me...and that is fine with me. if my goal were to generate as much business as possible, i would have links to my website posted everywhere and would ask those who see me to give reviews. i would see more than two gents a week and wouldn't care about chemistry or compatibility. but that's just not me.
but i wanted to respond to your first question, why do i need to charge anything? i don't need to, i wish to. and i wish to because it is the financial aspect, the fact that i am a whore, that my fantasy revolves around. the objectification of being a service that a man uses and pays for appeals to my erotic nature. but i have a very full, colorful life outside of escorting...i have other (non-fiscal) fantasies that i explore, being a whore is just one of many.
as for crossing any lines of emotional intimacy, that is something i don't do. believe it or not it is very much possible to have a casual friendship or kinship with someone without any romantic undertones whatsoever. this is the sort of relationship i have with all of my regulars...they know that i genuinely care about their well-being. no, i do not "expect" them to call and ask how i am doing...tho that is exactly what they do. i want them to feel free to reach out to me if they just need someone to chat or commiserate with or whatever. i want them to be able to relax and completely let go with me, which for many men includes being able to pick up the phone and tell me about their jerk boss or the new drama with their wife. this lets them know that i see them as a person, not a bunch of dollar signs, and it also helps me to serve their needs appropriately. for example, if a gent reveals to me that he has inadequacy issues, then i know how to conduct myself during our erotic moments together. my goal is to be a haven of pleasure, peace and uninhibition for my clients. and such an environment is just not possible working under the "business only" model.
at the same time, intimacy boundaries are not crossed for two major reasons: the fact that i always advertise and present myself as a submissive, so that it's very clear that i see it as my duty to serve them...and the fact that i tell every potential client about my Husband and the fact that we are madly in love. so while i have made friends and even a few dear friends among clients, none have ever crossed the danger zone into stalker or love-sick suitor territory.
sorry wrong thread
-- Modified on 8/27/2007 9:18:23 AM
a) I am a provider who entered the business solely for pleasure and excitement initially (with quite literally NO IDEA that women were "working" this way 9a-5p, 5 days a week, some garnering six figure and higher salaries.
b) I was prompted to enter the business after several failed "friends-with-benefits" relationships, an attempted AdultFriendFinder membership and usage of other casual encounter adult websites
c) My entry to the business was predicated upon the sum of several facts:
FACT: I love having sex
FACT: I love having anonymous sex with little to no connection
FACT: I love having sex with familiar partners with whom I can cultivate a sexual oriented relationship comfortable enough for exploration
FACT: I tired quickly of dramatics from those wanting to be closer to me than I anticipated, those who took advantage of my time and required me to have sex on THEIR SCHEDULE
FACT: Why should I foot the bill to get laid (i.e. allowing men to visit my place, drink my booze, use my electricity, dirty up 10 towels, and leave a wet spot on my bed for me to clean) when there are hundreds of thousands of men who are willing to compensate me for my efforts to satisfy them?
Ultimately, while this exchange may be sex for money to you-this exchange, for some providers who happen to like what they do, is about respect and acknowledgement.
As for your initial question: reviewers like you are precisely why I require a TER handle during my screening process (and for those who believe themselves to be clever and don't provide it the WhiteList Referral email search feature is very useful considering that most gentlemen use one collective email for hobby related mail including maintenence of TER membership). Reviews are BUSINESS to us: ask any TER listed provider who posts with any frequency on this board where the majority of our business is derived from and they won't hesitate to tell you the review process. While another provider may very well appreciate a self-proclaimed "easy, late-thirties, professional" client who just happens to routinely assign "5s-Plain" and "6-Nice Time" frankly, that is $300 that I can live without. This is a business, and while reviewers must use this site and others to manipulate their outcomes, we must as well. While I don't ordinarily let reviewers' review history deter me there are things that send a red flag to me: misogynistic language, poor scores for otherwise excellent providers (no matter what the body of the review says) etc-and while the former doesn't apply to you the latter certainly does. Some guys say that they look at the reviewer's history as much as the review-but I know that for the majority, the process isn't that involved-they look at the numbers and that split second decision over a "5/5" could cost me a worthwhile client. My business sense and intuition tells me that I would rather pass up the one time $$$ and maintain my excellent review history.
AFF is the biggest scam I currently know of. Seriously, I would gladly pay $$ to an AFF member if they were sincere about their desires to meet and have fun. As far as review, and the business aspects of this "hobby" it is there. and I for one do appreciate what the hobby provides - both to the ladies and the gents.
lets face it, most of us have complex views of this hobby - but where else can you meet someone - and not play games just to meet and have a great time.
So, I have to say - it was refreshing to read your post.... as far as numbers go, I am very careful as to what score I give. If there is a technical difficulty I err on the side of the lady.... if I've connected with her, they I truly try to give at least a 9 to the encounter.... But when I select a provider, I look for the personality... as that is important... thank you for the perspective - especially on AFF - I could not agree more.
Very well said my dear. If I ever get to Atlanta for more than changing planes, I will contact you.
Don't be angry at Lilli because she doesn't hobby the way you like. We all respect that you can hobby as you like, try and respect that we can hobby as we like as well.
You may not know this, but some people can have sex with friends for money. It's not one or the other. Some people (like Lilli) choose to have both. If that's not for you that's fine, to each his own.
I'm sure you can get through a persons screening process easily. But why would you say that? Would you really want to see a woman who doesn't want to see someone like you? That just sounds mean and inconsiderate.
I feel sorry for Hardy.
Perfect example of someone I wouldn't see.
He's so angry because of what ONE provider did to him 10 years ago.
He has the right to be angry...but to get angry at other providers because they don't hobby "your way" is tasteless and RUDE.
would be room for some give and take on your requirements. Some men in this hobby (I am probably one) don't quite know what we want. The reality is I am very much of the opinion that I do not wish a serious relationship - with anyone.... unless convinced other wise.... well, you get the drift.
Do I enjoy ladies on a more personal level that just a quick sexual encounter - you bet. But I have to be honest, my initial contact with any lady is to have sex.... and not a "relationship" as defined by any standard- hobby or civie.
Having said that, I tend to select women who have a certain body type... but I also reject women whose web site is devoid of personality. That is, I do not wish to have sex with a robot... some men do, I don't. I have met one provider who is incredible... over a 1 year period I saw her 3 times.... I know nothing of her... except that she is incredible in bed... and is very athletic. I don't see her anymore, because I met other providers who provided a bit more interaction. That is, they just simply talked to me... and let me see that they are human as well. (I do reciprocate.)
I guess my initial thought to your post is that sometimes all my budget or time permits is a short meeting - with no expectations other than sex... that is not so bad... and on those occasions... I will just provide name rank and serial #.... but if we hit it off, I will be back for a more indepth interrogation! lol!
I guess, what I am trying to say is that you may miss out on some great guys... with your process.... but you do what you need to do and I can respect that!
I feel exactly how lilli does. Couldn't have said it any better.
I do treat my job as a business, but not "just business".
If I approached things as Hardy did, I wouldn't have lasted as long as I have.
2 of my former clients are now good friends of mine. We clicked and started a friendship.
Lilli, that sounds nice. I bet you have some very loyal customers.
To paraphrase the movie "North Dallas Forty" [I think], "When I say it's a game, you say it's a business, when I say it's a business, you say it's a game!"
Your veracity in possibly pointing out perfunctory rather than giving to passion is as welcome to providers as is a candid non scripted question to a candidate in a presidential debate.
A provider truly appreciates a client who respects them and the "business" aspects you mention. They are also given to enjoying/preferring the many common legerdemains of business.
Why would you ask this question? Has there been some sort of issue? You sound reasonable.
Don't break your arm patting yourself on the back!
You are indeed the perfect client, given your own personality and personal history. What works for you, works for you. Good for you, and I really mean that. You know what you want and work to make that happen. Many people don't or can't do that.
However, why can't you live with the fact that what works for you doesn't work for everyone? Why do you keep trying to convince us all that we should approach the hobby exactly as you do? My personality and personal history are far different from yours and it would make absolutely no sense for me to attempt to hobby as you seem to think everyone should.
Just be you and let everyone else be themselves.
Just do what's best for you.
Try not to worry what others say. They don't know you or what experiences have shaped your expectations.
I'm sure you're a great client.
I edited my original post based on PM.
-- Modified on 8/27/2007 10:02:42 AM
Hardy I truly enjoy your points although I certainly don't always agree with your point of view. Literally 2 minutes after reading this post, the Wall Of Voodoo song "Can't Make Love" popped on my iPod while playing in random mode.
The chorus of that song seems seemed so appropo of your post I thought I'd post the entire lyric here:
Can't Make Love (Wall of Voodoo)
Well, I can't make love
To the girls in this city
'Cause the girls
Say I abuse them
And I won't go out
With girls because
Girls will fall in love with you
Everybody's lonely, that's true
Maybe it's psychology
I don't know, I gotta move someplace
Where the girls are easy
And it makes me miss my lonely city
And the girls are so easy
And it makes me miss my lonely city
And it seems so easy
But I can't say the words that are on my mind
Chorus:
"I'm a nice guy but I don't love you––
I just wanna sleep with you."
"I'm a nice guy but I don't love you––
I just wanna sleep with you"
Well, I can't make love
To the boys in this city
'Cause the boys
Say I abuse them
And I won't go out
With boys because
Boys will fall in love with you
Everybody's lonely, that's true
Maybe it's psychology
I don't know, I gotta move someplace
Where the boys are easy
And it makes me miss my lonely city
And the girls are so easy
And it makes me miss my lonely city
And everybody's so easy
But I can't say the words that are on my mind
"I'm a nice guy but I don't love you––
I just wanna sleep with you."
"I'm a nice guy but I don't love you––
I just wanna sleep with you"
Wow, cool song. It really fits. That should be Hardy's theme song, lol.
and married the dude... but could not have an orgasm unless the hubby left a white envelop on the night stand.... ! ?? True? I wonder....
We are what we are. me thinks that most are a wee bit more honest with what turns us on sexually than the averge gent and lady.
I will speak honestly: I think Hardy would make a good client. There are times when I feel a strong friendship with a client and other times I truly just wish men would leave quickly when the appointment is over. After all, some of us do have other work and lives. Now . . . don't all jump on the 'bashing bandwagon.' I give a truly intimate experience, and I enjoy the time spent with clients (yes, "clients") but it is still a business. The only thing I would worry about is getting a really low rating from Hardy, but still that is his choice and wouldn't deter me from seeing him. What's one 6 or 7 to my record anyway? We all view things differently, and sometimes -- although I hopefully give 100 percent -- providers may not act the same from one client to the next client. We're not robots. I would like to think that I treat everyone the same (and I think I do for the most part), but sometimes there are connections and sometimes it really is hard to be receptive to a guy who is whining, bitchy and hasn't a clue.
Can't we just have varying opinions, as long as they're polite and not condescending, and get along? Remember, everyone is different, and if the client is clean, well mannered, gives the correct donation and hopefully appreciates providers, then who cares -- really?
Hugs,
Ciara
-- Modified on 8/27/2007 7:12:01 PM
I don't have anything against you or the way you choose to hobby, this isn't personal. But you sound like the exact opposite of what I would want in a client.
Yes it's nice that you are polite and treat the women with respect. But politeness and respect are a minimum.
No, women do not want their clients to cross boundaries. But there is a more pleasent medium between what you say you do and someone thinking there is more going on than there is.
There is an abundance of the human element and compassion in the way I choose to hobby. I wouldn't want to see anyone who was cold or dismissive. This is a business, but it's a very personal business.
I haven't seen your scores, but why are your scores so low? Are you selecting the wrong women or are you just very hard to please????
-- Modified on 8/27/2007 6:40:52 PM
There was an exhaustive thread on Hardy's scoring on both appearance and performance not too long ago. You can look for it and check it out if you're really interested in the answer to your question. But, I get tired just thinking about it--
Hardy, if it matters at all, I bet MOST providers do consider you to be the ideal client. But you have to remember to whom you are addressing this post.
The women on these boards aren't “ordinary” providers -- they are extraordinary Uber-providers. They have discovered TER, they hold court at an online discussion board, and they can manage to string more than two sentences together (which is more than I can say for most online-people). The women here seem smart, even intellectual. The breadth and depth of their life experiences is, in some cases, nothing short of remarkable. Some have quite literally traveled the world.
So naturally, many of them have “fooled” themselves into thinking that their business is more than just business. Their sharp, active minds will not allow them to view their providing as mere drudgery. They are frankly too bright and special to look upon their livelihood this way, and rightfully so. The most successful people in any field are often the ones who enjoy their work, and make no mistake about it -- the women who post on TER are some of the most successful in their respective markets. But for the average Craigslist/Cityvibe/Eros lady, yes, you are definitely the type of client they are looking for. And there is nothing wrong with that.