I've been thinking a lot about the Feb. 13 post of Interesting Woman (on whether to tell a new boyfriend about being a provider) and about several recent posts from guys (including me) who are in love with their ATFs. It seems to me the issues overlap at least a little and I wanted to raise a few thoughts and questions.
The response to IW was overwhelmingly that she had to be honest about what she does, (though there was a lot of disagreement about timing and details). The general consensus, which I share, was that a close, lasting relationship had to be based on honesty and sharing the important things in your life. Sedona added the health angle, saying it was only fair to let a boyfriend know that STD risks were involved.
What bothers me about this is that I have never seen anyone suggest on this board that a man had to be honest with his wife or SO about his activities as a client. How can this NOT be a double standard? Indulging in this lifestyle is a pretty important emotional part of us and yet we either choose to or feel we must keep it a secret. And the STD angle can be particularly troublesome for someone who joined the lifestyle after several years of marriage and engages in unprotected sex with his wife. It's pretty hard to explain why all of a sudden you want to start covering up.
I was also intrigued by the discussion about whether a guy in a relationship with a provider can ever really accept what she does and live with it. I agree with those who said a few men can, but that most can't. And I think the number of civilians who could accept/understand it is miniscule because let's face it -- no one who isn't a part of this scene has a clue as to what it's like and what the people involved are like. Someday we should all chip in and hire a PR firm to explain it, but in the meantime, it seems the public image is going to be a major obstacle for a provider who wants to develop a relationship with a civilian.
But relationships with clients or ex-clients seem very possible to me. How else to explain the other posts about the vast number of guys who fall in love with their ATFs? Many of these guys who want a long-term relationship may want or assume the ATF will retire, but surely not all. And in the meantime, plenty of us live with it without too much difficulty.
When I posted my lament about being married and in love with my ATF, I got a lot of good advice on the board, but I also got a surprising number of PMs from guys in somewhat similar situations who just wanted to talk. About two-thirds were also married and the more I read their messages, the more obvious it became that, like mine, these are mostly hopeless situations that are likely to end tragically for one or more parties.
The other third came from single guys trying to make a go of it with unattached providers, and while I envied them, they, too, were having problems. Just a different kind. I shouldn't generalize, but many of the guys had serious doubts that their ATFs really loved them -- they had trouble believing it had gone beyond the pretend and provide stage. This was even true in two cases where money was no longer changing hands.
I didn't hear directly from any providers but based on what the guys said and my own experiences, many of the women have trouble believing the guys were really in love with them. They figured it was mostly sexual infatuation that would never last. I think another element is that some providers (at least in my limited experience) lose self-esteem and can't believe someone who knows what they do will love them for who they really are. My ATF once told me it meant a lot to her that I wasn't judgmental about what she does. That struck me as ludicrous. How could I think any less of her for what she does when I'm lying in bed next to her doing the same thing?
Anyway, I'm sorry this got so long and I don't have any brilliant conclusions to draw. But I was interested in what y'all think. I guess it just goes to show how difficult it is to create a relationship that works on multiple levels. And I suppose the nature of the business relationship that we all start with makes it hard for either party to really believe it when a relationship develops beyond sex/companionship for money.
I was honest with my wife when I started seeing otehr women.
After years of getting the 5th degree for every time I was 5 minutes late getting home, one time when she asked me if I went to see another woman, I told her the truth.
"I went to get the car washed and there was this realy cute 21 year old blonde behind the counter. While I was waiting for the car, I struck up a conversation and we started talking about all the people she meets for just a few minutes each ... next thing I know, she'd dragged me into a back room and fell to her knees and unzipped my pants with her teeth! After a few minutes of this, I pulled her up by her hair and spun her around so I could get a frim grip on her breasts as I got in from behind her ..... "
At which point my wife rolled her eyes and said "AS IF! God why can't you have a SERIOUS conversation for once?" and went back to her work, while laughing at me.
-- Modified on 2/16/2004 3:48:38 PM
Bravo, jzyman!
I'm one of the single ones here, and I went looking for a provider after being told "no chemistry" by more civilian women than I care to count. I consider myself to be a remarkable man, and by all accounts, I have a powerful presence in person, so the regular dating scene has been more than a little frustrating. I sought out someone I can relate to for more than just sex, and have been lucky enough to find just such a lady.
As for the double standard you speak of, you've made a keen observation. In the case of those hobbyists with SOs, I'd advise honesty, as well. However, having been on the other side, being told by my ex-wife that she was having unprotected sex with another man in addition to me, I can relate to how that might be received. I would imagine that if every married or attached man who participates in this hobby were to tell his SO of his activities tonight, the results would be instantly devastating to the industry. (Many would be forced to give it up for the sake of their marriages, and most others would be placed in financial binds that would preclude further participation.) I'm not saying secrecy is RIGHT, I'm just agreeing that it's a choice that bears consequences. The honorable thing would be to make a committment one way or the other.
I think your comment regarding providers who can't believe a man could know what they do and still love them unconditionally is right on the mark. Having borne the weight of professional secrecy for many years, I understand perhaps more than most how awful it is to keep something so essential from family and friends, and what it's like to worry about what kind of rejection might follow discovery. As Desdemona's father said to Othello, "Look to her, if thou hast eyes to see...she has deceived her father, and may thee." Those are harsh words. A provider may worry that no man would ever trust her if she's kept such secrets well. (As for me, I choose to give the lady credit; Desdemona may have been unfortunate, but she was indeed pure of heart.) As you said, she and I are keeping the same secrets.
I believe that my favorite lady is pure of heart, too, and she has always been exceedingly honest with me. I admire her on many levels and consider her to be the most extraordinary woman I know.
Yoda
Yoda ....
That's why I like to stress for all parites concerned that IT'S JUST A JOB.
There's an old story about the circus coming to town and the man who goes to see the parade. He sees all the girls, the acts, clowns, animals and fiannly followed by the elephants. Then he notices a man with a wheel barrow and a shovel cleaning up after the elephants. He says to the man, wow what a terrible job!
The man replies "Tell me about it! Elephant crap stinks like nothing else on earth. It gets in your clothes and into the pores of your skin and NOTHING gets it out. I have these flies follow me 24 hours a day, no circus performer will get within 20 feet of me. Cost me two marriages, too!"
So the man says "well, why don't you just quit?"
and the guy replies "What?? And give up show business???"
If both sides would realize that it's just a job, better than some and worse than others, it would go a long way.
I've known many girls that have had happy, stable relationships while in the industry, so it IS possible, but with that said, the dynamics and details of this specific industry do make it less likely. For that reason, when asked (and even when not asked) I tell the girls to stick to this advice:
1) Get in
2) Charge top $
3) Live simply
4) Bank the bucks
5) Set a date
-and-
6 Get Out.
The truly amazing and saddening thing is the number of girls that make over $200,000 a year and have nothing to show for it.
Master Pig,
A wise man you are, yes.
Yoda
though they want to. Those women, however, should probably never have become providers in the first place.
A few rare women are temperamentally suited to this work, and find it personally rewarding as well as financially rewarding. Many men have trouble really understanding this - for example, those who are subject to "rescue" fantasies.
I would say, though, that the number of women who are truly temperamentally suited to it is smaller than the number of women who think they are. The key thing is for each woman to be honest with herself about her true feelings about this job and how they may change over time.
Good point pig. Wish more providers would follow it. The earning potential of some who enter this business is staggering but at the end, nothing. Hopefully that is changing, I know I am meeting more providers who have plans and/or money saved or invested and have an end date set.
I initally got into this because I needed money for a car. While I got into I got addicted to the sex and the attention. I love turning men on and watching them get excited and pleasing them. I have had several clients say they love me with one telling me that he wanted me to leave the biz and that he would take care of me. He went so far as to wanting to divorce his wife! I stopped seeing him for obvious reasons. A few months went by and I started seeing him again but let him know he couldn't get so involved in me. So far it's working. I hope it doesn't change. I don't want to break up a family. I just want to make a man feel good and leave a big smile on his face, like this => 
Why do we need to get out ??
If I was working in any other profession there is no limit how long to work .......... ok retirement is at 65 but some even continue to work after that .
Why is it in this profession people keep asking when am I going to retire ?? Like it is a bad thing if your working for years.
I love my job , I have a lot of fun . money is great .I meet great people . Why do I need to retire ?? 
Spice; You seem like the business for reasons other than money. But most providers have money as the main objective, for those people Pig's pointers and my second of those pointers are justified. I prefer providers in the 21-26 age range, virtually all who I have seen have some objective in mind that money will help them attain, a few unfortunately did not have a clue about anything. I do not have a savior mentality but the most gratifying situations that I have had were in seeing a 24 year old, a 25 year old and a 21 year old, all of whom had their financial house in order and either savings or investments in place, AND a time to quit on the horizon. This is just the way that I feel.
for those that are in the biz just for money then your advice is great . But even in real life show me how many 20-25 year olds manage their money well and have their finances in order .or even have a clue how to do it or even think about it .
A 21 year old who has her things together ?? are you sure she was 21 ?
Money will always be exchanging, from the client to the provider, no freebees, and normal relationships work around this.
It is hard to do the very few times it does happen, one needs nerves of steel.