I see it as something that is a way for two people to have fun together. What I definitely don't see it as is a way for two people to "merge together" into one person. I have a very strong sense of my separate identity as a person, and really have no interest in some kind of romantic "merging". I like boundaries and separate space, with a lot of mutual respect.
But I do think that there is a healthy aspect to physical touch. I think that without physical touch, we can move into a less healthy state. So providers are really good for getting that physical touch. And I do try to make some kind of connection with the providers I have sex with. I have a lot of good will toward other people in general, and other people usually sense this and often end up asking me for advice. Boy, have a lot of providers asked for advice about a decision they need to make. The "kindly father" type, I guess.
But I have this sort of emotionally detached aspect that might seem "cold" to some people, but of course makes providers comfortable, because it they know they are safe in every way. I get the feeling from them that some of you guys scare them with your emotional intensity. How the hell can you say you have fallen in love with someone you don't even really know. If I were one of them, it would scare me too.
I'm thinking that it might be better for all of us if we just thought of it as a way for two people to have fun together, and experience some healthy touch.
I'm not going to read your whole message. Just a couple of sentences. But I do agree with you. I don't see sex as something that is emotional either. I'm not sure if I have wished that I could have seen it that way either.
but the bottom line is YMMV. I have known people who did just fine on both ends of your spectrum, and while it is important to maintain perspective in this arena, I have known people who I never would have gotten as close as I have to if I would have been like you.
As Lennon said, "Whatever gets you through the night".
SEX IS A TOY YOU SHARE WITH A WOMAN . AS IN THE EARLY SEVENTIES:YOU MAKE LOVE(S.O.), YOU FUCK(ONE NIGHT STAND) AND YOU BALL A GIRL(FEMALE FRIEND WITH NO POSSIBLE JEALOUSY) OH THE OLD SAFE BARE BACK DAYS!!!!!!!!
however it CAN be emotional. If I'm having sex I better be feeling some kind of emotion (joy at the bare minimum) or else why the hell am I doing it? It doesn't necessarily have to be an emotion directly related to the other person.
I have found it interesting seeing so many men (who stereotypically are able to keep from becoming emotionally attached to someone "just because" they've had sex) falling in love with providers who they may have only met 1-10 times and spent a few hours with.
Out of curiosity, what are you experiencing, if anything, during sex(beyond just having fun) if there's not any sort of emotion?
-- Modified on 3/24/2005 3:58:14 AM
emotion of friendship. I like friendly sex.
The emotions that I do not feel are the feelings of romantic involvement - true romantic involvement. By that I mean true "falling in love" romantic involvement which goes beyond the fun of the "trappings" of romance, which are themselves just part of the fun, and are understood by both her and me to be no more than just part of the fun, like going out to dinner and looking into each other's eyes.
It has been my experience that people who have your perspective have problems with intimacy, all intimacy of any sort, to varying degrees.
Which explains why alot of men have problems with intimacy.
Now, I don't know you from Joe, so I'm not saying you do. All I'm saying is, this has been my experience. Friends, ex-girlfriends, who have believed this have a hard time getting and staying close to people because they have problems with their own sense of self worth.
And finally, I'll qualify that statement that these are friends of my peer group, namely, the 20-25 crowd. I can't speak to the rest.
The mutual respect that I experience with women cannot happen unless both people involved have healthy self-respect and healthy self-esteem.
I noticed the same thing in a far different context: a martial arts class I attended for three years. Lots of physical contact, coupled always with mutual respect and etiquette, discipline. By contrast, the absence of tocuhing/physical contact in out general American societal lives is remarkable. I learned that touching and physical contact (with many people, yong, old, female, male) are necessary but need not be "intimate" if accompanied with respect, care, dignity.
Just my 2 cents
completely detached emotionally is not as fun and fulfilling as one which involves a certain degree of emotions, ones which are communicated through eye contact and physical touching (the kissing, caressing, and gentle pinching and squeezing of each other's body parts); as long as both you and the provider keep the boundaries intact, I don't see anything wrong with enhancing the sexual pleasures with some emotions.
By emotions I don't necessarily mean the kind that you get from falling in love with someone. I mean those which you genuinely feel for someone whom you care and respect. Sex is after all a very personal and intimate encounter which I believe tends to get better once you've become more comfortable with each other. There's a lot of truth when a reviewer says that his experience gets better with a particular provider each time he sees her. I think that has a lot to do with the fact that you've connected on some level emotionally with each other.
Professing your love for a provider and stalking her is a no-no for you've crossed a very important boundary. This is the other extreme.
Just my perspective.
-- Modified on 3/23/2005 11:37:09 PM
-- Modified on 3/24/2005 6:49:14 AM
Quote: "By emotions I don't necessarily mean the kind that you get from falling in love with someone. I mean those which you genuinely feel for someone whom you care and respect. Sex is after all a very personal and intimate encounter which I believe tends to get better once you've become more comfortable with each other."
It took visiting a provider for me to understand this distinction (which is, ironically [a small] part of why I did in the first place.. I knew it was confusing me and I needed to get it out in the open).
But I think there's value in the position that says it's better if you share at least some mutual respect and care with the provider - these aren't machines with useful body parts, they're women, people who, despite needing some detachment, would be woefully emotionally unhealthy were the detachment absolute.
I also know that the distinction you're making is rare. It's so hard to not attribute extreme emotions (either detachment or love) to sex.
The mutual respect that I experience with women cannot happen unless both people involved have healthy self-respect and healthy self-esteem.
Some thoughts.
Sex is many things - fun, ego gratification, connection, exploration... it is whatever an individual makes it at any given time. Ultimately I am of the belief that our sex is our spirit, our primal life energy. This doesn't mean it is improper or "wrong" to use sex as a tool for any specific purpose, though we should know what we are doing as we do it. Intent vs. reality borne of repitititious patterning.
Many of us have sexual patterns in our energetic centers - disconnect from our expression, tied into our power center, woven into our heart center...
proper flow without attachment and identification is an ideal efficient and harmonic state, it is also rare to find.
I'm sorry you have *no* interest in "merging". Loosing ego and becoming one with another is an incredible experience, even if just for an hour or two.
"I do think that there is a healthy aspect to physical touch."
Touch is as vital to our life and development as any other basic need - food, water, shelter, air. Without it we suffer emotionally, mentally, spiritually, and even physically.
"it might be better for all of us if we just thought of it as a way for two people to have fun together, and experience some healthy touch."
Sure. Better than what?
It seems as if you are trying to address those who are trying to fill emotional voids with this "hobby"? In that case, I would agree. Then again, there are those of us whose main interest is in learning and exploring what those emotional voids are, where they stem from, how to fill them without causing further damage to the self...
each to our own, as we need and as we see fit, yes?
Two glasses of wine in me says it is time to go to bed and to stop typing. I also realize that this board is not necessarily receptive to my musings. Anyone who wants to chat is welcome to PM me.
Good night!
Acctually, your one of the only members that brings intelligent converation to this board. In fact, I am now to the point where I only read messages posted by members I know have something interesting to say. don't get me wrong, I love Conversation with an adult theme. As for the points you made in this message, I would not be a hobbyist if I did not get the things you describe out of it. Maybe some folks just don't belive you can really get those things out of it or maybe they think you shouldn't. Maybe they think those things should only come with a long term relationship. I don't agree. But then I pride myself on building good relationships in a short period of time. It is one of the things that has made my life successful.
Thank you for all your insite. Keep it up!
mich57
The term is nice poetry. The problem is when it's quoted back to us as dogma, especially when, despite the nice ring to the words, it has nothing to do with what really happens. It's more like a wish, a fantasy, a longing that something like it could happen.
I'll agree that there is a healthy aspect to touching, but I'll add that human beings, all primates really, need pleasure. Denied of it, we'll tend to seek it out in some very low yield ways.
I've always thought of it as having fun, first and foremost, but my emotions have always been there, too.
I'll always be tempted to tell a woman during or after sex that I love her, but closest I hope I would ever let myself say to a provider is that I could fall in love with her.
If I get that close, I need to see two or three other providers for deprogramming.
While your attitude to sex may be useful protection for "the hobby", I find it regrettable if, in the other parts of your sex life, you have similar difficulties in connecting emotionally with your partner. I suspect it's a bit like having a sense impaired, like being colour-blind or myopic, because you're missing out on something powerful. Put on those glasses and you'd see the world differently.
As with any sense, your new feelings or emotions may be both good and bad, but that isn't any reason for not experiencing them.
Experiencing emotions - on whatever level - for your partner intensifies the experience in a way that is beyond words. It is the most delicious thing in the world.
I'm wondering if when you talk about emotion, you are referring only to romantic attachment. I mean, surely you feel SOME kind of emotion, even if it's only longing or excitement. But, really, to me, you make your fun time sound a bit robotic. Maybe that's as it should be, to keep yourself safe.
Aphra
-- Modified on 3/24/2005 1:50:51 AM
"I see it as something that is a way for two people to have fun together. What I definitely don't see it as is a way for two people to "merge together" into one person."-- Oh! he is not talking about providers here. I wish I had known, learned, found out about the real thing on romantic merging. It is a way for two people to merge together. But it just happen to be somebody else.
Ok, ok, ok, he does it on purpose. It just happens to have happened with me and others. And to think that I was such a romantic in my teens and early twenties.
maybe it's from my midwestern, conservative, upbringing but, I find that in some small way, I am emtionally attached to any women I make love with.
That may be why I am very choosy as to who I see.
I don't let it get out of hand, there is a line that we can not cross, but, I do become "friends" with most of the ladies I have seen.
In one case, I actually gave up the "client/provider" relationship to stay good friends, because, it was more important to us to be great friends. As a very wise person told me, "I can always find a good provider, but a real, true friend is very hard to find".
I don't understand how anyone can get together with a lady, have an intimate encounter and not have some emotional connection, even if just for an hour or so.
Anyone who can participate and not have that connection must be very cold in their "real" life and may be a very lonely person.
Just my opinion...
B
I once read what I considered to be an interesting description of the sexual act between two people. The author said that it is an accurate reflection of the relationship between the two people, be it casual, intimate, selfish, loving, or whatever. As I have thought over my own experiences with the wonderful women I have know, I honestly feel that this description is true. He went on to say that it is a unique act in the the woman allows herself to be "entered" and the man allows himself to be "surrounded". I've forgotten all of of the elaboration on these points, but I still think they are valid.
Yes! This a great point, imo, and very true. I wish you could remember the source.
Part of the fun is physical and part is simply the interaction. However, I also have a very emotionally and sexually satisfying relationship with my wife. The two are not mutually exclusive and I am very happy with my life.
Your emotional detachment may be a wall that you've erected to avoid real intimacy, and now you are trying to justify it. Regardless, if you are truly happy, that's all that matters. If not, or if you feel that you are missing something, you may want to consider what I wrote.